Are Hayman Reece Weight Distribution/Stabiliser Bars Needed on light weight caravan ?
Peter Rose said
12:06 PM Apr 2, 2017
Hi, I recently purchased an 17ft Viscount Newport which weighs around 1300kg It came with a set of Hayman Reece Weight distribution bars..often called stabiliser bars Someone has said that really they are not necessary on a light weight van and I am considering taking them off ( one less job when hitching and unhitching ) I would be interested to hear from any of you that have some knowledge or experience in this area.
mezza56 said
04:21 PM Apr 2, 2017
Hi Peter
A WDH is just that , it transfers weight from the back end of your car to the front , so your steering is not compromised .
Depending on your car type model etc will have some bearing on the matter. With such a small lighter caravan as you have its unlikely you would need them.
You dont state what your towing it with ?
If your have a normal sedan and not say a 4WD with more rigid suspension and a greater towing capacity , maybe it would be advantageous in that instance.
best thing is to set the van up on the car and check to see if the height of your wheel arches come down once loaded compared to normal .
If it drops at all the WDH will help correct that . A WDH is not an anti sway mechanism in itself though I have heard people say that it feels better to drive .]
Our TB weight is approx 260 and I dont use a WDH since I beefed up the suspension , it tows as good if not better without it .
Your choice .
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:37 PM Apr 2, 2017
It depends on the tug and the ball weight.
Modifying the rear suspension is not an alternative to a WDH and can cause other handling problems in an emergency.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Rose said
05:07 PM Apr 2, 2017
FYI I am towing with a Pajero LWB Diesel so its about 3000kg gross and has a 3000kg towing capacity
Van would be 1500kg loaded
mezza56 said
05:40 PM Apr 2, 2017
Hi Peter
I have read about as much as I can find on Hitch Vs Suspension , I have not read anything about problems in an emergency .
I'm not disputing what you have stated , but definitely interested in what problems are associated .
If the back end of the vehicle doesn't sag with the weight the front end doesn't lift and become too light in the steering .
I've read articles in caravan mags where improved suspension improves handling never heard anything negative ?
On the flip side I have heard of vehicles flipping with a van because of a hitch not breaking away from the tug .
Woody2 said
07:12 PM Apr 2, 2017
G-day Peter Rose.
We tow a 17/6 viscount (1460 kgs gross) with a pj Ford ranger. Around 30000kms in the past 2yrs, with no whd . Had no
problems. Feel it's just something else to worry about
Cruising Cruze said
08:01 PM Apr 2, 2017
Hi Peter Rose.
We used to tow an Viscount with an Holden Cruze witch had Hayman Reece Weight distribution bars
Now we tow the same caravan with An 4x2 PJ Ranger
Funny to say but we feel a lot safer to use them on the Ranger as well
Cheers John
macka17 said
11:13 PM Apr 2, 2017
ALL vans improve. become better balanced with WWDH.
NOT necessarily H.Reece.
there are lighter rigs.
single\double round bar. different dia's to suit weights.
My Compass 17ft 3 with Navara late '90's.
ran a single bar rig.
Bought one. was a little light.
So I drilled larger dia holes in mount and had some spring steel round.
That dia.
Bent up to suit, and holes drilled for locating pins.
Had that for 10 yrs. Mate still uses.
There should be several on Ebay. or even new from dealers.
Duals are better than singles.
Jaahn said
09:26 AM Apr 3, 2017
mezza56 wrote:
Hi Peter
I have read about as much as I can find on Hitch Vs Suspension , I have not read anything about problems in an emergency .
I'm not disputing what you have stated , but definitely interested in what problems are associated .
If the back end of the vehicle doesn't sag with the weight the front end doesn't lift and become too light in the steering .
I've read articles in caravan mags where improved suspension improves handling never heard anything negative ?
On the flip side I have heard of vehicles flipping with a van because of a hitch not breaking away from the tug .
Hi mezza56
That statement about the front end not lifting is incorrect. It is a simple matter of physics and levers really. If the ball weight is at some distance from the rear axle then it lifts the front of the car and reduces the weight on the front axle. Basic levers. Does not matter what it looks like as far as sagging.
Whether the amount is important to your vehicle is another matter. But the WDH will correct the imbalance anyway. I have found they will make a rig better and more stable even with a medium sized caravan behind normal cars. They also provide extra damping on the ball which helps too IMHO. As said already there are simpler and cheaper units than HR.
As far as "breaking away" and contributing to "flipping the tug" in some situation ??? The WDH seem as though it would be last thing to worry about if that was happening to you. You would already be in deep do-do
Jaahn
Peter Rose said
09:59 AM Apr 3, 2017
I have towed with the WDU connected and apart from the creaking sounds coming from it it tows fine at all speeds.
BUT I have also towed without it connected and it tows fine at all speeds as well. I think having a good proportional electric brake controller makes a big difference.
I am in the workshop for some minor repairs tomorrow so I think they have a weighing device so I will check the tow bar weight before making final decision.
As I am partially disabled I am trying to be a minimalist in terms of the work involved it hitching up and unhitching setting up camp.
Thank You for the contributions to the discussion so far
AdventureTrek said
04:01 PM Apr 3, 2017
to Mezza56:
I agree with Jaahn words.
Stiffening the rear springs of the tug , or adding air bags to the rear, does NOT transfer any weight back to the front wheels. It just assists in levelling the rig.
Taking your example the 260kG you place on your tow ball. A vehicle with a wheel base (C/L from to rear axles) of 2900mm and a distance of 1200mm from C/L rear axle to tow ball C/L, reduces the mass on the front axle by 107.6 kG.
The calculation being 260kG / 2900 * 1200 = 107.6kG, which is basic lever physics.
This 107.6kG reduction from the front axle has to go somewhere which is to the rear axle. Hence, in this example, adding 260kG to the tow ball has a result of increasing the mass on the rear axle by 260 + 107 kG = 357kG.
Paul
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:11 PM Apr 3, 2017
....And changing the rear suspension without changing the front suspension can cause a reduction in the understeer towards over-steer which can contribute to loss of control while towing.
Virtually all loss of control of van/tug combinations are a result of eventual over-steer.
Cheers,
Peter
Tony Bev said
12:45 AM Apr 4, 2017
I have a second hand Viscount with tare of 1400 Kg written on the side, (never weighed it)
It came with Hayman Reece type, Weight Distribution/Stabiliser Bars already fitted
Purchased it in the city and towed it 200 kilometres home, in my old 1993 EB Ford Falcon
Old tyre exploded while I was doing about 100 KPH, and the caravan ran straight as a die
(Suspect that the seller may have over inflated the tyres, as the caravan had been standing for a while)
I have always used the weight distributor, but have only ever towed with a Ford Falcon, which had coil springs
I do realise that it is a pain to couple, and uncouple
But it gave me peace of mind
macka17 said
06:58 AM Apr 4, 2017
No matter what you do.
Both veh's within safe (individual) weight limits first.
THEN. Both veh's sitting level on own wheels Individually.
WITH the preferably, around 150\to 250kg on ball.
Depending on rig. (I ran over 350kg)
Ball BASE, and bottom of hitch cup in line. When both on flat ground
ready to couple.
I ALSO prefer a "Highland Hitch".
to straight ball coupling or any of these fancy\complex
variations of it.
360deg rotation. Both ways.
THEN... You put WDH in equation and tension chains to suit YOUR rig
and conditions.
Only THEN. do you go out and balance up the braking on your controller.
Pedal AND LEVER.
Get used to using lever too, with it's position to your hand.
I use for first 20 miles or so in trafic. Every time we start travelling again.
Just so I can touch it Automatically.
WITHOUT fumbling or feeling for it.
That one little item. IS your first line of defence in controlling a swinging trailer.
Apply that while applying a tad more throttle Just after starting to.
Retarding load while powering AWAY from it.
is safest\simplest, way of control.
Practice it.
AWAY from trafic flow.
I used to sway van on empty roads in my younger days. just to practice.
But then I did forest Rally's and raced dirt bikes too.
SO not too much brain in there to start with hey...
Chuckle.
Lots of fun though.
brickies said
07:23 AM Apr 4, 2017
And this question will be ask over and over and over again .
kesa32 said
09:10 AM Apr 4, 2017
There's a good thread on this over on the caravan forum tech site , basically in regards to WDH , they recommend to run it at around 50% tension if you have to use one ....... lot of other info on there too
mezza56 said
09:49 AM Apr 4, 2017
Looks like I stand corrected , I'm happy to take on what others state , just so you know Peter I had the entire car suspension upgraded
front and back , I didn't state that as aside from the van I carry around 300 kg. I'll continue to use the WDH even though the car is level without it .
I have done a lot of reading on this now and haven't been able to find much info (ie) if you have sag and fit a WDH you usually tension it till its level , should you go harder on the tension or is just level adequate ?
What % of weight does it transfer off the ball when just level . I have read that it also transfers approx 10 -15 % of the weight back onto the TT axles as well .
If my vehicle is already level how much tension needs to be applied to the WDH ?
Bill B said
11:07 AM Apr 4, 2017
kesa32 wrote:
There's a good thread on this over on the caravan forum tech site , basically in regards to WDH , they recommend to run it at around 50% tension if you have to use one ....... lot of other info on there too
What they actually say is to tension your WDH so that it replaces 50% of the weight removed from the front wheels when the van is placed on the tow ball.
macka17 said
11:38 AM Apr 4, 2017
Ok do the weighing b4 and after.
Over the yrs. (just self and others I've been playing with here)
We tend to find that , If both veh's weighed and balanced front ear Then coupled up. (Jacks off ground.) The rear of car tends to drop around 1\2 to 1 in on arch to rim measurement.
I normally need 5 or 6 links counted, to take that out, and give fairly flat across.
Once you've got yourself sorted. and happy with figures and looks
You're ready.
From then on. prepare for travel. wind up corner jacks. Couple hitch to van. then crank jockey wheel up to raise ball around 3 to 4 inches. Connect chain at links you've prev, assessed you need. Lower Jockey
and you ready. Having had a LOT less stress\Pressure
to adj HR chains.
Always, plugs and walk around first of course.
I go. then Di does same behind me. (Hawkeye)
There are a lot of little tricks to make things easier. Watch people and learn.
'nother simple one.
After boss finished with sink drain.
Uncouple sullage hose. Rinse out with water hose.
Then drape over (myself), across the rear of tug.
Hanging down to drain.
Then when you roll to pack.
It won't leave puddles of potentially "smelly" water everywhere.
-- Edited by macka17 on Tuesday 4th of April 2017 11:46:59 AM
kesa32 said
07:51 PM Apr 4, 2017
True Bill !, l should have not rushed what l wrote ( on my way to work ) .....anyway some worthwhile reading for people over there
kezngaz said
11:33 AM Apr 6, 2017
I posted a video on here a few weeks ago showing that WDH does exactly that, distributes weigh.
In comparison they inflated the rear airbags on the tugs which showed this had the opposite effect, by reducing weight on the steers.
Im sure somebody a little bit more techy than i will be able to copy the link on here.
Its simple physics....
Hope this helps.
Kezngaz.
Hi,
I recently purchased an 17ft Viscount Newport which weighs around 1300kg
It came with a set of Hayman Reece Weight distribution bars..often called stabiliser bars
Someone has said that really they are not necessary on a light weight van and I am considering taking them off ( one less job when hitching and unhitching )
I would be interested to hear from any of you that have some knowledge or experience in this area.
Hi Peter
A WDH is just that , it transfers weight from the back end of your car to the front , so your steering is not compromised .
Depending on your car type model etc will have some bearing on the matter. With such a small lighter caravan as you have its unlikely you would need them.
You dont state what your towing it with ?
If your have a normal sedan and not say a 4WD with more rigid suspension and a greater towing capacity , maybe it would be advantageous in that instance.
best thing is to set the van up on the car and check to see if the height of your wheel arches come down once loaded compared to normal .
If it drops at all the WDH will help correct that . A WDH is not an anti sway mechanism in itself though I have heard people say that it feels better to drive .]
Our TB weight is approx 260 and I dont use a WDH since I beefed up the suspension , it tows as good if not better without it .
Your choice .
Modifying the rear suspension is not an alternative to a WDH and can cause other handling problems in an emergency.
Cheers,
Peter
Van would be 1500kg loaded
Hi Peter
I have read about as much as I can find on Hitch Vs Suspension , I have not read anything about problems in an emergency .
I'm not disputing what you have stated , but definitely interested in what problems are associated .
If the back end of the vehicle doesn't sag with the weight the front end doesn't lift and become too light in the steering .
I've read articles in caravan mags where improved suspension improves handling never heard anything negative ?
On the flip side I have heard of vehicles flipping with a van because of a hitch not breaking away from the tug .
We tow a 17/6 viscount (1460 kgs gross) with a pj Ford ranger. Around 30000kms in the past 2yrs, with no whd . Had no
problems. Feel it's just something else to worry about
We used to tow an Viscount with an Holden Cruze witch had Hayman Reece Weight distribution bars
Now we tow the same caravan with An 4x2 PJ Ranger
Funny to say but we feel a lot safer to use them on the Ranger as well
Cheers John
NOT necessarily H.Reece.
there are lighter rigs.
single\double round bar. different dia's to suit weights.
My Compass 17ft 3 with Navara late '90's.
ran a single bar rig.
Bought one. was a little light.
So I drilled larger dia holes in mount and had some spring steel round.
That dia.
Bent up to suit, and holes drilled for locating pins.
Had that for 10 yrs. Mate still uses.
There should be several on Ebay. or even new from dealers.
Duals are better than singles.
Hi mezza56
That statement about the front end not lifting is incorrect. It is a simple matter of physics and levers really. If the ball weight is at some distance from the rear axle then it lifts the front of the car and reduces the weight on the front axle. Basic levers. Does not matter what it looks like as far as sagging.
Whether the amount is important to your vehicle is another matter. But the WDH will correct the imbalance anyway. I have found they will make a rig better and more stable even with a medium sized caravan behind normal cars. They also provide extra damping on the ball which helps too IMHO. As said already there are simpler and cheaper units than HR.
As far as "breaking away" and contributing to "flipping the tug" in some situation ??? The WDH seem as though it would be last thing to worry about if that was happening to you. You would already be in deep do-do
Jaahn
BUT I have also towed without it connected and it tows fine at all speeds as well. I think having a good proportional electric brake controller makes a big difference.
I am in the workshop for some minor repairs tomorrow so I think they have a weighing device so I will check the tow bar weight before making final decision.
As I am partially disabled I am trying to be a minimalist in terms of the work involved it hitching up and unhitching setting up camp.
Thank You for the contributions to the discussion so far
to Mezza56:
I agree with Jaahn words.
Stiffening the rear springs of the tug , or adding air bags to the rear, does NOT transfer any weight back to the front wheels. It just assists in levelling the rig.
Taking your example the 260kG you place on your tow ball. A vehicle with a wheel base (C/L from to rear axles) of 2900mm and a distance of 1200mm from C/L rear axle to tow ball C/L, reduces the mass on the front axle by 107.6 kG.
The calculation being 260kG / 2900 * 1200 = 107.6kG, which is basic lever physics.
This 107.6kG reduction from the front axle has to go somewhere which is to the rear axle. Hence, in this example, adding 260kG to the tow ball has a result of increasing the mass on the rear axle by 260 + 107 kG = 357kG.
Paul
Virtually all loss of control of van/tug combinations are a result of eventual over-steer.
Cheers,
Peter
It came with Hayman Reece type, Weight Distribution/Stabiliser Bars already fitted
Purchased it in the city and towed it 200 kilometres home, in my old 1993 EB Ford Falcon
Old tyre exploded while I was doing about 100 KPH, and the caravan ran straight as a die
(Suspect that the seller may have over inflated the tyres, as the caravan had been standing for a while)
I have always used the weight distributor, but have only ever towed with a Ford Falcon, which had coil springs
I do realise that it is a pain to couple, and uncouple
But it gave me peace of mind
Both veh's within safe (individual) weight limits first.
THEN. Both veh's sitting level on own wheels Individually.
WITH the preferably, around 150\to 250kg on ball.
Depending on rig. (I ran over 350kg)
Ball BASE, and bottom of hitch cup in line. When both on flat ground
ready to couple.
I ALSO prefer a "Highland Hitch".
to straight ball coupling or any of these fancy\complex
variations of it.
360deg rotation. Both ways.
THEN... You put WDH in equation and tension chains to suit YOUR rig
and conditions.
Only THEN. do you go out and balance up the braking on your controller.
Pedal AND LEVER.
Get used to using lever too, with it's position to your hand.
I use for first 20 miles or so in trafic. Every time we start travelling again.
Just so I can touch it Automatically.
WITHOUT fumbling or feeling for it.
That one little item. IS your first line of defence in controlling a swinging trailer.
Apply that while applying a tad more throttle Just after starting to.
Retarding load while powering AWAY from it.
is safest\simplest, way of control.
Practice it.
AWAY from trafic flow.
I used to sway van on empty roads in my younger days. just to practice.
But then I did forest Rally's and raced dirt bikes too.
SO not too much brain in there to start with hey...
Chuckle.
Lots of fun though.
Looks like I stand corrected , I'm happy to take on what others state , just so you know Peter I had the entire car suspension upgraded
front and back , I didn't state that as aside from the van I carry around 300 kg. I'll continue to use the WDH even though the car is level without it .
I have done a lot of reading on this now and haven't been able to find much info (ie) if you have sag and fit a WDH you usually tension it till its level , should you go harder on the tension or is just level adequate ?
What % of weight does it transfer off the ball when just level . I have read that it also transfers approx 10 -15 % of the weight back onto the TT axles as well .
If my vehicle is already level how much tension needs to be applied to the WDH ?
What they actually say is to tension your WDH so that it replaces 50% of the weight removed from the front wheels when the van is placed on the tow ball.
Ok do the weighing b4 and after.
Over the yrs. (just self and others I've been playing with here)
We tend to find that , If both veh's weighed and balanced front
ear
Then coupled up. (Jacks off ground.)
The rear of car tends to drop around 1\2 to 1 in on arch to rim measurement.
I normally need 5 or 6 links counted, to take that out, and give fairly flat across.
Once you've got yourself sorted. and happy with figures and looks
You're ready.
From then on. prepare for travel. wind up corner jacks.
Couple hitch to van.
then crank jockey wheel up to raise ball around 3 to 4 inches.
Connect chain at links you've prev, assessed you need.
Lower Jockey
and you ready. Having had a LOT less stress\Pressure
to adj HR chains.
Always, plugs and walk around first of course.
I go. then Di does same behind me. (Hawkeye)
There are a lot of little tricks to make things easier.
Watch people and learn.
'nother simple one.
After boss finished with sink drain.
Uncouple sullage hose. Rinse out with water hose.
Then drape over (myself), across the rear of tug.
Hanging down to drain.
Then when you roll to pack.
It won't leave puddles of potentially "smelly" water everywhere.
-- Edited by macka17 on Tuesday 4th of April 2017 11:46:59 AM
True Bill !, l should have not rushed what l wrote ( on my way to work ) .....anyway some worthwhile reading for people over there
In comparison they inflated the rear airbags on the tugs which showed this had the opposite effect, by reducing weight on the steers.
Im sure somebody a little bit more techy than i will be able to copy the link on here.
Its simple physics....
Hope this helps.
Kezngaz.