Have any of you had the nasty experience and how bad can it be with a turbo ? How did you handle the problem ?
I have a turbo on my 86 Toyota and being a paranoid bugger due to fire experience in racing cars I'm half way through fitting fire extinguishing system directly into turbo inlet pipe.
So far I have plumbing, trigger system and nozzles fitted about 100 mills from the turbo inlet fan. I have yet to decide which of the 4 or 5 types of fire retardant extinguishers to use.
If anyone has a good idea/information of which type to use would be great.
Thank you.
-- Edited by Dr Sable on Thursday 9th of November 2017 10:57:51 PM
dabbler said
11:33 PM Nov 9, 2017
These are incredibly rare events. My Dad was a diesel mechanic for over 30 yrs before owning a servo franchise for 20+ yrs and he couldn't recall ever seeing or knowing anyone that experienced one first hand.
It's probably easier and more useful to starve a diesel of fuel than oxygen. A full cut-off would serve other purposes too.
Personally, I have never even thought it was an issue but your post reminded me of family conversations about our vehicles.
dabbler said
11:35 PM Nov 9, 2017
should read ...FUEL cut-off....
Old Col said
07:32 AM Nov 10, 2017
most runaway diesels are caused by sucking engine oil up into the intake
starve the air is the best way to stop a runaway engine
Jaahn said
08:51 AM Nov 10, 2017
Hi Dr Sabel,
I been working on diesels on and off for 40 years and have never seen or heard directly of any events like that. I do not say they do not exist but very rare and usually the result af a problem that was there but ignored for a while, as I read it !
If you pour a quantity of foam into the turbo then it will be a write off ! Put a throttle body in front of it instead with a cable to the drivers seat if you are paranoid.
Jaahn
patrol03 said
09:11 AM Nov 10, 2017
With older diesels the engine speed was controlled by the butterfly in the air intake as the injectors delivered a set amount of fuel. To shut down, the fuel was cut off in the pump with the throttle butterfly in the idle position. Modern day common rail injectors regulate the fuel delivery together with only minor adjustments made in the air intake. I think this is overkill Doc. If it is not broken then don't fix it.Suggest you take it to a diesel expert and get everything set up for your towing situation. Also remember that liquid that is non compressible when introduced into a high compression CI engine can cause a great deal of damage.
blaze said
09:16 AM Nov 10, 2017
what you are doing is not clever, it will ruin your engine even in the event of an accident.You can buy a electric or cable controlled shut off valve that shuts off the air intake, no air equals instant shut down. They were fitted to gm 2 stoke engines and worked extremely well
cheers
blaze
Aus-Kiwi said
12:54 PM Nov 10, 2017
Strange this comes up here ! My GM 6.5 just shuts engine down if drive by wire voltages are not with in tolerance . The power steering stops . The brakes work off power steering ! So you have a 6.5 ton vehicle with NO brakes and steering !! How these vehicle can be legal on our roads ?? Itâs fitted in ECU to preven run away situation .. Yes either fuel cut off or large type throttle body to stop engine . The latter is possibly the safest as it will stop engine even if itâs running on its own oil . Which can also be from bad turbo oil seal . New single rail have electronic injectors which would stop working if things are working .
Tony Bev said
01:22 PM Nov 10, 2017
Your brake/steering system seems very sus, Aus-Kiwi
Do you not have some sort of charged accumulator, to give enough brake/steering, to pull off the road
I agree with others, (I have never seen a runaway diesel engine, but do know that in theory it is possible)
The best way is to completely block the air intake, as runaway can be attributed to not only diesel, but engine oil, and possibly injected LPG
Bagmaker said
01:29 PM Nov 10, 2017
Fuel shutoff has to be quick.
In a runaway event with no coolant the bores expand and sump vapours get sucked into the combustion chamber. No other fuel needed.
Too rare to worry about, keep the filters clean and enjoy
Aus-Kiwi said
02:32 PM Nov 10, 2017
The worst time is at roundabouts . No accumulator. Been thinking of fitting an elect power steer pump from Astra / Mazda / Lexus as safety .. Its an electrical problem that will be sorted !! Fuel shut off solinoid, fuel sensor in fuel pump or just drive by wire throttle is playing up ?? Just donât want to go replacing things getting nowhere !! Paying someone to look at it still costs !! Just needs a GM expert !! Unfortunately or fortunately these are not very common in Aust . The Hummer versions where mechanical injected and didnât have this problem also wasnât drive by wire !! They kept things kis for military!!
Aus-Kiwi said
04:41 PM Nov 10, 2017
With cruise control and runaway ? When they both work . This can become an issue !! Lol
Hewy54 said
04:59 PM Nov 10, 2017
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
With cruise control and runaway ? When they both work . This can become an issue !! Lol
Not a diesel runaway, but did have an incident a few years ago.
Aftermarket cruise was connected via a wire on the throttle cable.
Towing the ski boat, planted my foot to overtake and the wire got jammed.
Just had to wing it for a while until I was clear of all traffic, then turn off the car and coast to a stop without the use of the power brakes.
Got pretty hairy for a while!!
Keith P said
10:16 PM Nov 10, 2017
I have seen the aftermath of a 2014 Mack that had a runaway engine....totally destroyed itself from the inside out. The driver tried everything to stop it....stuffed blanket into air intake...turned the fuel off...but couldn't stall it coz it was an auto. In the end he undid the sump plug...but by then it was too late....plus it was actually on fire inside the engine after it rattled to a stop....so the firies had to put it out. Apparently the truck was written off ...even tho it was only 11 months old . The official cause was a blown seal on the intake side of turbo sucking oil from return line into the engine....so while it kept running it kept pumping oil.
Cheers Keith
Aus-Kiwi said
10:29 PM Nov 10, 2017
Yep for entertainment google runaway engines . 100 x10000 $$$ up in smoke !!
PeterD said
11:08 AM Nov 11, 2017
patrol03 wrote:
With older diesels the engine speed was controlled by the butterfly in the air intake as the injectors delivered a set amount of fuel. To shut down, the fuel was cut off in the pump with the throttle butterfly in the idle position.
That's a new one to me. I have not seen a diesel with a butterfly throttle. Which ones are you talking about? The only diesel motor I have seen with a butterfly throttle was in a tractor back in the 50s. The butterfly was in the carburettor, it had two different compression ratios and could operate on petrol and kero as well as diesel when set on high compression.
If the injectors deliver (or is it the distributor pump) a set amount of fuel then at idle the set amount of fuel would over fuel the motor and it would deliver copious clouds of black oily smoke.
3 cyl Perkins had throttle body . Exhaust brakes took over to assist engine braking .
dabbler said
12:41 PM Nov 11, 2017
Hewey's story reminded me of the time I planted my foot to get around an illegally parked car in the left lane on a major arterial road. I was in my mate's blue-printed celica. He had frayed the throttle cable and it jagged on something. Red-lining in traffic isn't fun.
Aus-Kiwi said
02:21 PM Nov 11, 2017
Raced an XB GT around a tight race track . It was running N20 ( Nitrous Oxide) at the time . Braking 240kph into hairpin while N20 was still in inlet . Kept power on for a few seconds !! On a car that had sub standard brakes for speed etc . Sure gets your attention ! Again learning experiences.. A little rallycross action all ended well !
C00P said
11:39 PM Nov 12, 2017
I looked at a few of these events on Google and Youtube.
I assume it is not possible to stall the engine by selecting a high gear (eg 4th), applying the brakes and then taking your foot off the clutch?
(I guess this might be a bit hard if the vehicle is an auto.)
Just asking....
C00P
rgren2 said
12:12 AM Nov 13, 2017
C00P wrote:
I looked at a few of these events on Google and Youtube.
I assume it is not possible to stall the engine by selecting a high gear (eg 4th), applying the brakes and then taking your foot off the clutch? (I guess this might be a bit hard if the vehicle is an auto.) Just asking....
C00P
My 2.2l Toyota hilux decided to do this when it was overfilled with oil (another story), yep, just stalled it. Then again it wouldn't pull the skin off a custard. Any manual would be able to be stalled.
Big Mal said
06:57 PM Nov 13, 2017
Driven diesels for millions of Kms, GM's, Cummins,Cat, Perkins and Jap engines even a couple of Duetz's never ever come across it, the fuel trucks I drove had a extinguisher system fitted for just in case, mind you the engine would be destroyed.....in modern diesels it's easy as pull a lead off the battery if it could happen though as the ECU would shut down straight away, in the older rigs an old fella told me to just stuff my jacket in the air intake, easy on a truck.................did have a runaway in a petrol job but that was because the throttle lever had popped off and jammed the carby lever, could hear the valves bouncing for miles.
macka17 said
11:27 PM Nov 13, 2017
Not runaway.
BUT. Decades ago when working on Motorway Batters (Sides. trimming them with track loaders for vegetation.
Company I was in. Favoured "Case" powershift loaders.
Rat little things.
They had a bad habit. On Steep batters. . If you didn't "shift quick enuff. Just on the stall point.
Sometimes they'd Stall.
Then transm would lock. Your tracks would roll BACKWARDS.
and the bloody engine would start in opposite rotation.
Jeez they made a mess. screamed. Ran away on you and shot oil out of sump everywhere.
I saw it twice, but was never lucky enuff to soil my jocks.
Thank god.
Early tugs did same thing.
Push. Stop engine. Lever over centre and restart engine in opposite rotation.
turning prop in reverse.
Sometimes engineer mistimed and tug went opposite to required in full drive.
Whoops.
School mates dad was a skipper on them.
Just another little anecdote hey.
Forget I spoke.
mr glassies said
11:35 PM Nov 13, 2017
Don't wash a air cleaner with petrol and run the diesel straight away . Seen one live on fumes of the petrol for about 5 mis . Didn't know a hilux could rev that hard . Pistons kisse valves streatched rods yep it was stuffed .
Also seen the rack in a d9 drop over
Dibs
Ger08 said
12:55 AM Nov 15, 2017
Seems a bit over the top for a seemingly older vehicle and for what can only be considered and extremely rare event
Warren-Pat_01 said
12:32 PM Nov 17, 2017
This might be in the line of macka's writings but I've only heard of two "run-away-diesels". And both were on PMG/Telstra properties & both in hindsight were quite humorous! Enjoy the reading, people!
The first was when I was about to transfer to Ceduna from Darwin & the boss suggested that I work at the Darwin radio centre instead of my normal abode - Radio Australia. I & a work mate were given this job - "Find out why the emergency transmitter at Berry Springs was off the air". This was in Sept 1972.
Some history - in the event that Darwin was attacked by the "commies up north" or damaged in a cyclone, an ABC staff member would go to an underground bunker armed with lots of records, cassettes, etc, press a button & the transmitter at Berry Springs would operate ensuring that the survivors of Darwin being decimated would be able to listen to Radio 8DR. That was the theory!
Another issue had cropped up - the transmitter was classified & therefore not marked on any maps. So during one "mock war" that was held where the enemy was based at Tindall (near Katherine), a Canberra bomber was happily coming in at tree top level hoping not to be seen by Darwin's radar & the defending Mirages. When the large clearing appeared, the pilot dropped down a number of metres, only to discover a 35m tower in front of him!
A few things happened -
1. the pilot reported it & was asked why he was flying in so low.
2. the RAAF wanted to know what this tower was & why it was not on their maps!
So we went to the transmitter - the battery voltage of the 24v battery was down to 3v, the plates were obviously sulphated up, the diesel had run out of fuel. It had dieselled away merrily away until it had stopped on "Low oil pressure"! I'm not certain who read our report nor of what action took place.
The second happened a few years ago before the fibre optic system went in from Townsville to Darwin & the NEC radio systems carried the telephony/TV east & west. One site west of Mt Isa (Flora Downs) had a power-engine fault & staff were sent to investigate. The chap opened the door of the RT hut & was met by the diesel power plant! It had come off its mountings, sheared the fuel line & again stopped on low pressure as it ran on the sump. Of course to make things a bit messy, it pumped a significant amount of diesel fuel out on the floor & ground!
Cheers,
Warren
PS - where Canberra bombers couldn't fly was not worth going there! Six metres above the sea, edge on down Darwin suburban streets, etc
Baz421 said
10:32 PM Nov 23, 2017
Had a GM 16V71 on a search and rescue boat in the 70's that wouldn't shut down as shutdown solenoid failed. So at idle a deckie shut the emergency flap near the blower. Idled at about 350RPM on and on with sump fumes and some diesel obviously. We wanted to head home after 15 hour day.
Only way to stop it was turn fuel off,,, finally died,,,, boss wasn't happy,,, asked him any brainwaves to solve,,, none.
Dr Sable said
09:19 PM Nov 27, 2017
Hi all. Been away OS and it took me 2 days to recover from a flight back home. So, before leaving I left a message on the board here needing some advice and insight into engine fires and lo and behold there is writing all over the walls.
Well I read them all including the ones not relating to fire. Thank you one and all for your input. Despite some of the replies suggesting that it may not be a good idea to install an engine fire suppressant, I'm of firm belief that I should continue with my installation. I much prefer to spend $500 for installation equipment and further $2000 for cleanup after fire than to have to fork out 15K plus for an engine and god knows what else.
As most of you have read from my post, I have already installed nozzles near turbo inlet. I will be using CO2 as a fire suppressant for the engine itself. CO2 is the best and least harmful way to smother the engine. The CO2 will be actuated automatically via BGF/BlazeCut fire suppressant system. Essentially, BGF/Blaze is for external engine fires but will act as a automatic actuator for the CO2 system. So in essence I will have a fire retardant system for both engine bay and stopping the motor from destroying itself.
When the bus is complete, I'll post enough photos to show the results. Thank you all.
-- Edited by Dr Sable on Monday 27th of November 2017 09:20:26 PM
Hi all. Heading of this post says it.
Have any of you had the nasty experience and how bad can it be with a turbo ? How did you handle the problem ?
I have a turbo on my 86 Toyota and being a paranoid bugger due to fire experience in racing cars I'm half way through fitting fire extinguishing system directly into turbo inlet pipe.
So far I have plumbing, trigger system and nozzles fitted about 100 mills from the turbo inlet fan. I have yet to decide which of the 4 or 5 types of fire retardant extinguishers to use.
If anyone has a good idea/information of which type to use would be great.
Thank you.
-- Edited by Dr Sable on Thursday 9th of November 2017 10:57:51 PM
starve the air is the best way to stop a runaway engine
Hi Dr Sabel,
I been working on diesels on and off for 40 years and have never seen or heard directly of any events like that. I do not say they do not exist but very rare and usually the result af a problem that was there but ignored for a while, as I read it !
If you pour a quantity of foam into the turbo then it will be a write off ! Put a throttle body in front of it instead with a cable to the drivers seat if you are paranoid.
Jaahn
cheers
blaze
Do you not have some sort of charged accumulator, to give enough brake/steering, to pull off the road
I agree with others, (I have never seen a runaway diesel engine, but do know that in theory it is possible)
The best way is to completely block the air intake, as runaway can be attributed to not only diesel, but engine oil, and possibly injected LPG
In a runaway event with no coolant the bores expand and sump vapours get sucked into the combustion chamber. No other fuel needed.
Too rare to worry about, keep the filters clean and enjoy
Not a diesel runaway, but did have an incident a few years ago.
Aftermarket cruise was connected via a wire on the throttle cable.
Towing the ski boat, planted my foot to overtake and the wire got jammed.
Just had to wing it for a while until I was clear of all traffic, then turn off the car and coast to a stop without the use of the power brakes.
Got pretty hairy for a while!!
I have seen the aftermath of a 2014 Mack that had a runaway engine....totally destroyed itself from the inside out. The driver tried everything to stop it....stuffed blanket into air intake...turned the fuel off...but couldn't stall it coz it was an auto. In the end he undid the sump plug...but by then it was too late....plus it was actually on fire inside the engine after it rattled to a stop....so the firies had to put it out. Apparently the truck was written off ...even tho it was only 11 months old . The official cause was a blown seal on the intake side of turbo sucking oil from return line into the engine....so while it kept running it kept pumping oil.
Cheers Keith
That's a new one to me. I have not seen a diesel with a butterfly throttle. Which ones are you talking about? The only diesel motor I have seen with a butterfly throttle was in a tractor back in the 50s. The butterfly was in the carburettor, it had two different compression ratios and could operate on petrol and kero as well as diesel when set on high compression.
If the injectors deliver (or is it the distributor pump) a set amount of fuel then at idle the set amount of fuel would over fuel the motor and it would deliver copious clouds of black oily smoke.
A good article on runaway is here - Diesel engine runaway
I assume it is not possible to stall the engine by selecting a high gear (eg 4th), applying the brakes and then taking your foot off the clutch?
(I guess this might be a bit hard if the vehicle is an auto.)
Just asking....
C00P
My 2.2l Toyota hilux decided to do this when it was overfilled with oil (another story), yep, just stalled it. Then again it wouldn't pull the skin off a custard. Any manual would be able to be stalled.
BUT. Decades ago when working on Motorway Batters (Sides. trimming them with track loaders for vegetation.
Company I was in. Favoured "Case" powershift loaders.
Rat little things.
They had a bad habit. On Steep batters. . If you didn't "shift quick enuff. Just on the stall point.
Sometimes they'd Stall.
Then transm would lock. Your tracks would roll BACKWARDS.
and the bloody engine would start in opposite rotation.
Jeez they made a mess. screamed. Ran away on you and shot oil out of sump everywhere.
I saw it twice, but was never lucky enuff to soil my jocks.
Thank god.
Early tugs did same thing.
Push. Stop engine. Lever over centre and restart engine in opposite rotation.
turning prop in reverse.
Sometimes engineer mistimed and tug went opposite to required in full drive.
Whoops.
School mates dad was a skipper on them.
Just another little anecdote hey.
Forget I spoke.
Also seen the rack in a d9 drop over
Dibs
The first was when I was about to transfer to Ceduna from Darwin & the boss suggested that I work at the Darwin radio centre instead of my normal abode - Radio Australia. I & a work mate were given this job - "Find out why the emergency transmitter at Berry Springs was off the air". This was in Sept 1972.
Some history - in the event that Darwin was attacked by the "commies up north" or damaged in a cyclone, an ABC staff member would go to an underground bunker armed with lots of records, cassettes, etc, press a button & the transmitter at Berry Springs would operate ensuring that the survivors of Darwin being decimated would be able to listen to Radio 8DR. That was the theory!
Another issue had cropped up - the transmitter was classified & therefore not marked on any maps. So during one "mock war" that was held where the enemy was based at Tindall (near Katherine), a Canberra bomber was happily coming in at tree top level hoping not to be seen by Darwin's radar & the defending Mirages. When the large clearing appeared, the pilot dropped down a number of metres, only to discover a 35m tower in front of him!
A few things happened -
1. the pilot reported it & was asked why he was flying in so low.
2. the RAAF wanted to know what this tower was & why it was not on their maps!
So we went to the transmitter - the battery voltage of the 24v battery was down to 3v, the plates were obviously sulphated up, the diesel had run out of fuel. It had dieselled away merrily away until it had stopped on "Low oil pressure"! I'm not certain who read our report nor of what action took place.
The second happened a few years ago before the fibre optic system went in from Townsville to Darwin & the NEC radio systems carried the telephony/TV east & west. One site west of Mt Isa (Flora Downs) had a power-engine fault & staff were sent to investigate. The chap opened the door of the RT hut & was met by the diesel power plant! It had come off its mountings, sheared the fuel line & again stopped on low pressure as it ran on the sump. Of course to make things a bit messy, it pumped a significant amount of diesel fuel out on the floor & ground!
Cheers,
Warren
PS - where Canberra bombers couldn't fly was not worth going there! Six metres above the sea, edge on down Darwin suburban streets, etc
Had a GM 16V71 on a search and rescue boat in the 70's that wouldn't shut down as shutdown solenoid failed. So at idle a deckie shut the emergency flap near the blower. Idled at about 350RPM on and on with sump fumes and some diesel obviously. We wanted to head home after 15 hour day.
Only way to stop it was turn fuel off,,, finally died,,,, boss wasn't happy,,, asked him any brainwaves to solve,,, none.
Hi all.
Been away OS and it took me 2 days to recover from a flight back home.
So, before leaving I left a message on the board here needing some advice and insight into engine fires and lo and behold there is writing all over the walls.
Well I read them all including the ones not relating to fire. Thank you one and all for your input. Despite some of the replies suggesting that it may not be a good
idea to install an engine fire suppressant, I'm of firm belief that I should continue with my installation. I much prefer to spend $500 for installation equipment and
further $2000 for cleanup after fire than to have to fork out 15K plus for an engine and god knows what else.
As most of you have read from my post, I have already installed nozzles near turbo inlet. I will be using CO2 as a fire suppressant for the engine itself. CO2 is the
best and least harmful way to smother the engine. The CO2 will be actuated automatically via BGF/BlazeCut fire suppressant system.
Essentially, BGF/Blaze is for external engine fires but will act as a automatic actuator for the CO2 system. So in essence I will have a fire retardant system for both
engine bay and stopping the motor from destroying itself.
When the bus is complete, I'll post enough photos to show the results.
Thank you all.
-- Edited by Dr Sable on Monday 27th of November 2017 09:20:26 PM