Hi everyone,

We are up to having electrician to install 240v wiring in motor home. We have had differing opinions from several electricians regarding which 240v wiring to use. Some are saying that we need the white domestic to use in general and the grey to use for generator and inverter connections while we have also been told to use the grey one only. Can anyone advise which is the right way to go. Even rang motor vehicles who put me on to those who should know and they advised that the electrician would know and to stick to the 'standards'.

Very confused at this point in time

coffee machine groupy   

Hi, thanks Possum but that is the problem. 3 Different electricians have given different answers which is where the confusion arises 

I would strongly suggest that ALL 240V wiring is in conduit.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Everyone, thank you all so much for your replies, they have been most helpful. Really appreciated it.

One happy coffee machine groupy      

Aus-Kiwi wrote:

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Phew .. What happened ?? Lol everyone is still happy and on Christmas list still ahaha .

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Gday...

yeah ... must notta bin a proper 'tricity thread.

Cheers - John

IHi bunchone 

IF the Electrician cannot show you that he has a   current copy of AS/NZS 3001,  DO NOT HIRE HIM

THAT Standard specifies the type of cables ,among many other MANDATORY requirements specific to Caravans  & /Motor home etc

Especially since you will be having an inverter wired in

There is  a lot more to it than cable type!!!!

Who ever you hire ,ask them for a signed   compliance /test certificate  before you pay!!

Phil C wrote:

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I agree with PeterD

2.5mm sq for all power circuits and 1.5mm sq for lighting (AS 3000) No if buts or whyfors. TPS multi or round multi strand wont matter as long as it is secured and separated from 12 Volt circuits white, pink, blue, or brindle cable has no bearing on the performance.. Thats my two peneth. Hope you are all well

Cheers

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 Sorry Phil, but you missed out with a lot of important Information

Remember this is for a motor home not the same as domestic use

AS3001 applies with  extra  /different requirements  to AS 3000

bunchone wrote:

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Hi, thanks Possum but that is the problem. 3 Different electricians have given different answers which is where the confusion arises 

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 It would seem that none of them KNOW that there is a Specific AUS STANDARD  AS/NZS 3001  "Transportable Structures & their Power Supplies"covering the mandatory requirements for   Van Motor homes tents etc

That specifies the requirements for cables ,switches, inverter, installation , etc 

Wow, again am impressed with all the knowledge that is being imparted. Thank you all once again. Colin got back to me informing that it is Standard AS 3000/3001 that has to be adhered to within my state and signed off by electrician which it all will be. So once again, thank you to everyone for your contributions

coffee machine groupy          

T1 Terry wrote:

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Both type will work fine as long as it is secured at the required intervals. Fine strand flex like the "grey" round cable you mention can handle movement and flexing much better than the coarser conductor wire used in the white 2 core plus earth cable. If you use each type that suits the situation best you will have a good combination that is still just as legal. Jayco use all fine multi strand flex cable rated at 20 amps so they can adopt a plug and play installation where each cable plugs into the next or the power point and requires next to no securing at all, maintains double insulation and via a sort of loop hole doesn't require cable separation between 240vac and 12v cabling as long as the 12v cabling is also double insulated.
No matter what cabling method chosen, please make sure every time the cable passes through a hole there is additional protection and it is well attached to ensure the cable insulation is not damaged as this is the number one problem we find that have caused issues after a few yrs on the road. That piece of nylon used as a grommet where the cable passes through a hole it the metal structure must be glued in place because they fall out exposing the cable insulation to an abrasive edge that will chew through the cable after a while on rough roads.

T1 Terry

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Standard Grey flexible cable [Extension lead type} IS NOT APPROVED for PERMANENT electrical wiring!!!

Be careful that your advice comes from a fully qualified person  who has & understands the reasons for a specific rule

  Electrical Advice  from a NON qualified ,NON licensed person telling ALL how to do mandatorily LICENSED electrical work

hako wrote:

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Quite possibly T1 Terry's electrical advice was for the OP to ensure the work was completed properly. You can have all the tickets in the world and still stuff it up - whenever we have electrical work done at home I always have a look after they've left. One example is our wall double oven which has a wall isolation switch - the sparky only had 10 amp switches in his ute so used that...reckoned it would be OK as they are always left switched on so current does not matter. Made him come back and fit a 40amp unit.

Good Luck.

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 In that situation you should have immediately reported  it to the ESO

That would be serious enough for them to take strong action.

He should not be allowed to have a license

Yes .  !!!

T1's advice on fixing ,grommets etc is good advice & covered in the Standards

BUT his advice on cable  & some other points is WRONG!!!!!!

oldtrack123 wrote:

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T1 Terry wrote:

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Both type will work fine as long as it is secured at the required intervals. Fine strand flex like the "grey" round cable you mention can handle movement and flexing much better than the coarser conductor wire used in the white 2 core plus earth cable. If you use each type that suits the situation best you will have a good combination that is still just as legal. Jayco use all fine multi strand flex cable rated at 20 amps so they can adopt a plug and play installation where each cable plugs into the next or the power point and requires next to no securing at all, maintains double insulation and via a sort of loop hole doesn't require cable separation between 240vac and 12v cabling as long as the 12v cabling is also double insulated.
No matter what cabling method chosen, please make sure every time the cable passes through a hole there is additional protection and it is well attached to ensure the cable insulation is not damaged as this is the number one problem we find that have caused issues after a few yrs on the road. That piece of nylon used as a grommet where the cable passes through a hole it the metal structure must be glued in place because they fall out exposing the cable insulation to an abrasive edge that will chew through the cable after a while on rough roads.

T1 Terry

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Standard Grey flexible cable [Extension lead type} IS NOT APPROVED for PERMANENT electrical wiring!!!

Be careful that your advice comes from a fully qualified person  who has & understands the reasons for a specific rule

  Electrical Advice  from a NON qualified ,NON licensed person telling ALL how to do mandatorily LICENSED electrical work

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 2nd of December 2017 05:36:48 PM

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You might need to take a look at a Jayco installation before you go too much further Peter, it is possible you are reading from an out of date rule book. All Jayco wiring is flex cord, granted it isn't grey but it is still flex cord and they are all electrically approved so......

As an added verification, the licensed sparkie who wired the 240vac side of the recent house install stated that as long as the cable had double insulation it didn't matter if it was flex cord or 2 cable plus earth white cable, both were acceptable by the standards.

In a factory environment where things are much tougher and exposed to potential damage, the white house hold cable is never or very rarely seen, it is all flex cable. Maybe you have just been too long since you were a hands on electrician to realise things have changed for the better, I doubt you are even a licenced electrician now Peter as it has been so long since you actually worked in the trade.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry 

T1 Terry wrote:

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 [1]Jayco installation before you go too much further Peter, it is possible you are reading from an out of date rule book. All Jayco wiring is flex cord, granted it isn't grey but it is still flex cord and they are all electrically approved so......

 

[2]As an added verification, the licensed sparkie who wired the 240vac side of the recent house install stated that as long as the cable had double insulation it didn't matter if it was flex cord or 2 cable plus earth white cable, both were acceptable by the standards.

[3]In a factory environment where things are much tougher and exposed to potential damage, the white house hold cable is never or very rarely seen, it is all flex cable.

[4]Maybe you have just been too long since you were a hands on electrician to realise things have changed for the better, I doubt you are even a licenced electrician now Peter as it has been so long since you actually worked in the trade.

 

 

T1 Terry 

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Hi Terry 

[1]The Jayco kits use are one of the many 'Soft wiring ' kits available  using approved cable & fittings & where used as FIXED wiring they shall be installed by a licensed electrician.

Son tell me that they appear to be heavy duty grade Flexible cable rated @ 20A

Certainly not your every day 15A extension lead cable.

[1]It seems that you & your Electrician ? mate are not aware that there are many types & grades of flexible cables each covered by Standards

[2]Again your  electrician ????mate does not seem to understand that just being double insulated does not make every type of cable fit or approved for  a specific purpose

 There are various classes classes  & grades of double insulation ,NOT ALL THE SAME!

The fact that the simple term, Flex cord is used  ,shows how little he & you know about the many types of flexible cable available for different approved purposes. 

Domestic type multi core flexible cable is NOT TPS  sheathed ,TPS is mandatory, unless mechanical protected by conduit or similar  for fixed wiring including in wall cavities.

Perhaps you could get him to post the rule from the Standards to back up that claim

The Standards  book will list the Standards for approved cables

I asked my son ,who attended several seminars on the updated rules & he said such was not mentioned. 

[3]Are you seriously suggesting that factories, workshop are ALL  fully wired  with flexible cable with the same type /grade of insulation used on domestic extension leads 

Flexible cables have been used in many factories/ on machines etc ,for donkeys used [Approved for the purpose CABLES],but even the small tools ones required HEAVY duty insulation

I can also assure you that NON flexible cable is still widely used  for FIXED wiring in factories  & industry generally

The cost of using SUITABLE flexible cables for permanent wiring could not be justified .[ Even in the domestic situation]

White house hold cable[ what ever that is ] or any similar cable WAS NEVER used in such situations for fixed wiring except in offices , it may have/ could  be used in some tinpot workshops etc

[4]Terry ,you are obviously running low on B*&&S_)T for that remark .

Yes, I have been retired for near 30years, but I have forget far more than you have learnt or knew about electrics, and you seem to forget I have a son who hold a current Electrical contractor license &  IS working in all fields of the industry[ industrial ,commercial,  gov,  Qld Railways]. currently on a project @ Coolangatta  Airport

To other Non Electrical readers

Please be aware that there are many types of Flexible cords & cables  ranging from the normal domestic extension lead through higher & higher grades & thickness  of insulation to meet the requirements of the situation in which it will be used..

Conditions such as temperature conditions  ,mechanical damage , weather, atmospherics,Etc

All play a part in what should be used

ALL FLEXIBLE CABLES ARE NOT THE SAME .That is something that Terry does not seem to be able to understand

Oooh,  one of the things that I have found  in the new standards is the concern where even TPS cables in cavities may require extra protection in locations where nails or screws ,Staples ETC may penetrate the sheathing

Especially when the cables 50mm clearance from the walls cannot be maintained in such situations . 

Now how far can one get the cables away from the walls in the cavity of the average caravan???

Lots of examples of where such can occur & possible means of ADDED  APPROVED methods of protection

I wonder is your "electrician "is aware of that???

Extract From the New Standard

Flexible cords installed as soft wiring connected by means of an installation coupler shall meet the following requirements. new Soft wiring and installation couplers complete rewrite for clarity of new requirements 181 4.3.3.2 clause Arrangement Only flexible cords or flexible cables shall be used, as soft wiring, and shall be (a) connected to fixed wiring by means of an installation coupler; (b) of heavy-duty sheathed type complying with AS/NZS 3191 and the requirements of Clause 3.9.7.4; (c) selected to suit the protection device and in any case shall not be less than 2.5 mm2; (d) adequately protected and installed to minimize the risk of mechanical damage in accordance with Clause 3.3.2.6; (e) supported and fixed in position in accordance with Clause 3.3.2.8 and Clause 3.9.3.1; and (f) as short as practicable. new Soft wiring and installation couplers complete  

Note: It only applies to factory produced & approved products

Does not apply  to on site Fixed wiring using NORMAL 15 A EXTENSION LEAD CABLE

oldtrack123 wrote:

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Phil C wrote:

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I agree with PeterD

2.5mm sq for all power circuits and 1.5mm sq for lighting (AS 3000) No if buts or whyfors. TPS multi or round multi strand wont matter as long as it is secured and separated from 12 Volt circuits white, pink, blue, or brindle cable has no bearing on the performance.. Thats my two peneth. Hope you are all well

Cheers

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 Sorry Phil, but you missed out with a lot of important Information

Remember this is for a motor home not the same as domestic use

AS3001 applies with  extra  /different requirements  to AS 3000

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 1st of December 2017 12:48:24 AM

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 Cheers Ralf,

Had a read after I wrote this... Hope you and yours have a great xmas.

Phil

Dougwe wrote:

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Struth! I thought you had gone over the edge Phil. I did keep telling you your van was getting closer to the edge. Good to know ya still around mate.

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 Here for the duration old mate... Life is way to good to give up... Hope you and the crazy Scottsman have a great xmas.

Phil