Hi new to,the forum so,hope I do this correctly. Does anybody have thoughts on the Richards Torque lock up converter. I recently towed a new van back from Melb to Gold Coast & fuel usage was astronomical with the landcruiser. Does,anybody have,the same problem or had a lockup cnvert
Bill B said
09:01 PM May 13, 2018
What is the size/weight of the van and which gear were you towing in ?
Owners manual recommends towing in S4/5.
Moonraker said
09:44 PM May 13, 2018
DDL,
Welcome to this forum.
In very general terms a vehicle will use about double the fuel when towing compared to not towing.
If you have a LC 200 series towing heavy van 3T + then S4 is the gear to tow in at 90 to 95 kph. This is the sweet spot and this will keep your transmission temp normal and give you best fuel consumption. A good idea is to plug in a Scangauge 2 Xgauge set on TFT. That will give you an indication of what gear to tow in keeping your TFT normal or thereabouts.
We get on avarage 20 litres per 100 km in S4 at 90/95 kph. The 200 series will easily tow much faster but you will spend a lot of time filling up the tank!
If you have money to spend a Richard or Stocklock might be for you but I am not convinced that towing a heavy van either will do better than driving in S4 with heavy van in tow.
Just to note, on this and any forum you will get lots of opinions. So this is my opinion only.
Dickodownunder said
09:57 AM May 14, 2018
I have an MY 2014 200 Series LC diesel.
I have a dual axle van that when loaded weighs close to 3300 kg.
I have a Richards torque convertor lock up kit. It locks at 79 kph.
I have a Scanguage 2 fitted as well.
Fuel economy may vary considerably from trip to trip due to varying conditions with wind, road terrain speed etc etc.
My fuel economy unladen is around the 12litres per 100 kls.
Towing in S5 at around the 95 kph mark will give me a return of around 22litres per 100 kls.
In strong cross and head winds I have had it as high as around the 29 lphk and with favourable winds as low as around 17 lphk.
I recently towed the van from Windsor to Gilgandra up The Bells Line Of Road and that trip worked out at 23.55 lphk.
I tow from Whyalla to Port Lincoln which is a lot flatter going than The Bells Line of Road and get 19.1 lphk, so as you see it makes a lot of difference when the road is hilly.
Before I had the Richards kit fitted the fuel consumption was generally about 2 litres per 100 kls worse than it is now but more importantly the transmission temps rarely go over 90 deg c which is much lower than before it was fitted.
My vehicle has standard Toyota wheels and highway tires. Tires can make a difference with fuel economy as can wheel size.
I very rarely use cruise control when towing as this will increase fuel usage by around 2 to 3 litres per hundred klms.
The PID logarithm in cruise control is designed to maintain a set speed rather than have the vehicle drive as you may with your foot controlling the accelerator.
If you go slower you will save a bit more fuel but I choose to travel along with the flow of traffic where possible rather than having everyone trying to pass me.
I hope this helps.
DDL said
05:50 PM May 14, 2018
Thanks for all the replies & advice. I will do some more research re the Richards torque convertor
fwdoz said
10:11 PM Mar 15, 2019
Have travelled from Melbourne to our current spot in Geraldton. Some of the legs saw the side winds buffet us so badly we struggled for momentum. No issues at all with sway, so van is properly packed.
Had the Richards torque converter lockup kit fitted in Murray Bridge before crossing the Nullarbor. While I have not seen any huge reductions in fuel consumption, except where stated below. Where it is at it's best is holding gears up the hill, making it a completely different driving/towing experience. No more struggling except on the most extreme of hills. Also where I would see consumption climb in hilly places, it seems to hold the fuel use quite steady with minimal change compared to before the installation. Off the line with a caravan is more fleet of foot to get moving, rather than chugging off the line beforehand.
The Scangauge is so handy to keep a watch on the auto trans temperature & makes you aware of choosing the right gears.
In summary, am very happy with the driveability post fitting of the kit. Would recommend it if you are considering having it done. Also for the record, I had no ECU modification at all.
kev071 said
09:44 AM Aug 24, 2019
Interesting to hear that you only installed the lockup kit without the remap and it holds the beats longer.
This is what I was wanting to do but was advised that I needed the remap to to stop it changing down when I come across anything that even looks like a hill.
so you dont feel the need to get a trans remap at all and which lockup kit did you get?
Cheers, Kev
fwdoz said
03:01 PM Aug 24, 2019
Because I had the Prado, they said they prefer not to remap them. I must admit I also preferred not to get a remap done purely from wanting to not mess with the factory parameters should any issue arise, especially while towing.
Who was going to install your kit & which one Kev? Richards at Murray Bridge did mine & the info above came from the main man Stefan.
kev071 said
07:30 PM Aug 24, 2019
I was going to install myself, Im in Perth.
Was looking at the Stocklock but since you are saying yours holds the gears more I will do a bit more research on the Richards. Thanks
fwdoz said
07:40 PM Aug 24, 2019
They should have someone in Perth you can talk to, or contact them in Murray Bridge & get advice on your rig setup.
kev071 said
07:50 PM Aug 24, 2019
Ill contact them in Murray Bridge so I get the info first hand - thanks
tempestv8 said
12:55 PM Jul 5, 2023
The main reason why the automatic transmission is programmed the way it is, i.e. it unlocks the torque converter so readily at the slightest hint of a hill, etc is all to do with compliance with NOx emissions requirements.
If the auto gearbox keeps the torque converter locked when under heavy loads, two things happen - fuel mixture becomes richer due to increased load, ergo increased fuelling. In a petrol engine, a richer fuel mixture will lead to cooler running, but in a diesel engine, richer fuel-to-air ratio will result in greater heat generation. To the point where the pistons can get excessively hot and exhaust gas temperatures escalate hundreds of degrees. Not good for pistons, turbos and most of all, NOx emissions go through the roof. Which is bad for the environment.
So to reduce rich fuelling, the best way is to select a lower gear, to keep the revs up high. Hence Toyota recommend towing in S4. At 100km/hr the 200 Series is revving quite fast, and most people equate high revs with high fuel consumption. But the reality is that high revs when towing is actually better for the engine because piston and turbos run cooler, and also good for the environment because NOx emissions is much lower.
Fitting a lockup kit might improve fuel economy and allow the driver to tow in a higher gear but you will notice EGRs will run much higher going up a long hill in 5th gear locked, compared to 4th gear.
I want to fit a torque converter lockup kit for those slow hill climbs where speeds drop below S4 lockup, i.e. below 80 km/hr. If I can lock up 3rd gear at slower speeds, I can still maintain high revs, low gear and keep the transmission fluid temperatures in check as well as EGTs. However spending $500-$700 for a lockup kit just to lock up 3rd gear is a very expensive exercise.
Whenarewethere said
01:30 PM Jul 5, 2023
Dickodownunder wrote:
In strong cross and head winds I have had it as high as around the 29 lphk and with favourable winds as low as around 17 lphk.
I don't tow, but those figures are basically relatively the same as a percentage for me, headwind vs tailwind.
If not in a rush & there is a strong headwind, stop for the day. Why burn money pointlessly.
Driving a bit slower saves fuel.
Gundog said
05:02 PM Jul 5, 2023
The facts about towing with an automatic, is dont tow in Drive and never use the cruise control.
What gear should you use, findout which gear ratio is 1:1 and that is your cruising gear. Lock up kits and remapping are a waste of money all they do is encourage lazy driving habits.
Tuesday I had a 200 series tow a big off road dual axle caravan in the 110kph speed zone overtake me when I was sitting on the speed limit, he weaved his way through the traffic ahead of us and gone out of sight very quickly at a rough guess he was doing 120kph or better. What do you think his fuel consumption would be?
deverall11 said
09:22 AM Jul 7, 2023
tempestv8 wrote:
The main reason why the automatic transmission is programmed the way it is, i.e. it unlocks the torque converter so readily at the slightest hint of a hill, etc is all to do with compliance with NOx emissions requirements.
If the auto gearbox keeps the torque converter locked when under heavy loads, two things happen - fuel mixture becomes richer due to increased load, ergo increased fuelling. In a petrol engine, a richer fuel mixture will lead to cooler running, but in a diesel engine, richer fuel-to-air ratio will result in greater heat generation. To the point where the pistons can get excessively hot and exhaust gas temperatures escalate hundreds of degrees. Not good for pistons, turbos and most of all, NOx emissions go through the roof. Which is bad for the environment.
So to reduce rich fuelling, the best way is to select a lower gear, to keep the revs up high. Hence Toyota recommend towing in S4. At 100km/hr the 200 Series is revving quite fast, and most people equate high revs with high fuel consumption. But the reality is that high revs when towing is actually better for the engine because piston and turbos run cooler, and also good for the environment because NOx emissions is much lower.
Fitting a lockup kit might improve fuel economy and allow the driver to tow in a higher gear but you will notice EGRs will run much higher going up a long hill in 5th gear locked, compared to 4th gear.
I want to fit a torque converter lockup kit for those slow hill climbs where speeds drop below S4 lockup, i.e. below 80 km/hr. If I can lock up 3rd gear at slower speeds, I can still maintain high revs, low gear and keep the transmission fluid temperatures in check as well as EGTs. However spending $500-$700 for a lockup kit just to lock up 3rd gear is a very expensive exercise.
This is as good as it gets. 100% correct. I have a lockup kit (Richards) which was included in the ECU remap.
The remap yielded more torque (and power) and therefore was able to use a higher gear. Potential problem was
detected when EGR temps were climbing when using a higher gear.
So yes, lockup in higher gear but higher then normal EGR. Fact is that the modern diesel power plant is
required to spin and opposed to older style which were happy to be lugger around. Whilst the power plant like
to spin this is not the same as a petrol engine. Actually somewhere in between. The 'higher' revs allow the engine
to get rid of hot gases and thereby keep temps down.
In the case of an LC200, towing using S4 and an GPS speed of 90 - 95 will yield the best compromise between
fuel usage and forward progress. LCOOL can no longer be access but there was hundreds of postings from
members stating exactly that from their experience.
Stretch60 said
09:57 PM Jul 16, 2023
Gundog, that statement is not really relevant with today's modern multi geared computer controlled auto boxes. My Amarok v6 8 speed auto tows almost 99 percent in drive atbthe legal towing speed. Many times when approaching hills, the brain of the auto beats me by seconds when I feel it needs a lower gear. There are many 200LC's that I pass thT are going 80-90kmh towing huge heavy vans that I regularly pass. My Amarok sweet spot for towing is 8th gear at 1900rpm returning between 16-19lphk. Van comes in around the 3000kg mark
Stretch.
Gundog said
11:09 AM Jul 17, 2023
Stretch60 wrote:
Gundog, that statement is not really relevant with today's modern multi geared computer controlled auto boxes. My Amarok v6 8 speed auto tows almost 99 percent in drive atbthe legal towing speed. Many times when approaching hills, the brain of the auto beats me by seconds when I feel it needs a lower gear. There are many 200LC's that I pass thT are going 80-90kmh towing huge heavy vans that I regularly pass. My Amarok sweet spot for towing is 8th gear at 1900rpm returning between 16-19lphk. Van comes in around the 3000kg mark
Stretch.
If I owned your VW when towing 3000kg I would be in 6th gear which is 1:1, 7th and 8th are both overdrive.
In 6th cruising at 95kph I reckon could deliver between 13-15l/100k , and when towing 100k is fast enough.
-- Edited by Gundog on Monday 17th of July 2023 11:26:39 AM
Whenarewethere said
11:29 AM Jul 17, 2023
Gundog wrote:
If I owned your VW when towing 3000kg I would be in 6th gear which is 1:1, 7th and 8th are both overdrive.
Touareg V10 ?
Gundog said
08:16 PM Jul 17, 2023
Whenarewethere wrote:
Gundog wrote:
If I owned your VW when towing 3000kg I would be in 6th gear which is 1:1, 7th and 8th are both overdrive.
Touareg V10 ?
His is a V6 8speed Amarock
Stretch60 said
11:24 AM Jul 18, 2023
I just let the auto do its thing in cruise control and sit back and so far it has been faultless. I don't know that 6th would return better fuel economy if it is revving harder but next time out I will give it a try. (Aug 5th).
Stretch
yobarr said
02:49 PM Jul 18, 2023
Stretch60 wrote:
I just let the auto do its thing in cruise control and sit back and so far it has been faultless. I don't know that 6th would return better fuel economy if it is revving harder but next time out I will give it a try. (Aug 5th). Stretch
it s very easy to get better fuel economy in a lower gear as the engine runs far more efficiently. Many people make tge same assumption as you have, lower revs means less fuel. They're wrong.
Think about riding a bicycle, and how much harder it is to move if you're in a high gear. Cheers
deverall11 said
05:07 PM Jul 18, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Stretch60 wrote:
I just let the auto do its thing in cruise control and sit back and so far it has been faultless. I don't know that 6th would return better fuel economy if it is revving harder but next time out I will give it a try. (Aug 5th). Stretch
it s very easy to get better fuel economy in a lower gear as the engine runs far more efficiently. Many people make tge same assumption as you have, lower revs means less fuel. They're wrong.
Think about riding a bicycle, and how much harder it is to move if you're in a high gear. Cheers
Modern diesel prefer to rev then be lugged around.
Confusion between the way a petrol engine operated and a diesel. More the likely a higher gear in a petrol vehicle but not so much
in a modern diesel.
Personal experience as well as many members of the LCOOL forum reported that when towing there was no difference in fuel
consumption, other than a bee's dick, between 4th & 5th. Main difference was EGT.
Hi new to,the forum so,hope I do this correctly. Does anybody have thoughts on the Richards Torque lock up converter. I recently towed a new van back from Melb to Gold Coast & fuel usage was astronomical with the landcruiser. Does,anybody have,the same problem or had a lockup cnvert
Owners manual recommends towing in S4/5.
Welcome to this forum.
In very general terms a vehicle will use about double the fuel when towing compared to not towing.
If you have a LC 200 series towing heavy van 3T + then S4 is the gear to tow in at 90 to 95 kph. This is the sweet spot and this will keep your transmission temp normal and give you best fuel consumption. A good idea is to plug in a Scangauge 2 Xgauge set on TFT. That will give you an indication of what gear to tow in keeping your TFT normal or thereabouts.
We get on avarage 20 litres per 100 km in S4 at 90/95 kph. The 200 series will easily tow much faster but you will spend a lot of time filling up the tank!
If you have money to spend a Richard or Stocklock might be for you but I am not convinced that towing a heavy van either will do better than driving in S4 with heavy van in tow.
Just to note, on this and any forum you will get lots of opinions. So this is my opinion only.
I have a dual axle van that when loaded weighs close to 3300 kg.
I have a Richards torque convertor lock up kit. It locks at 79 kph.
I have a Scanguage 2 fitted as well.
Fuel economy may vary considerably from trip to trip due to varying conditions with wind, road terrain speed etc etc.
My fuel economy unladen is around the 12litres per 100 kls.
Towing in S5 at around the 95 kph mark will give me a return of around 22litres per 100 kls.
In strong cross and head winds I have had it as high as around the 29 lphk and with favourable winds as low as around 17 lphk.
I recently towed the van from Windsor to Gilgandra up The Bells Line Of Road and that trip worked out at 23.55 lphk.
I tow from Whyalla to Port Lincoln which is a lot flatter going than The Bells Line of Road and get 19.1 lphk, so as you see it makes a lot of difference when the road is hilly.
Before I had the Richards kit fitted the fuel consumption was generally about 2 litres per 100 kls worse than it is now but more importantly the transmission temps rarely go over 90 deg c which is much lower than before it was fitted.
My vehicle has standard Toyota wheels and highway tires. Tires can make a difference with fuel economy as can wheel size.
I very rarely use cruise control when towing as this will increase fuel usage by around 2 to 3 litres per hundred klms.
The PID logarithm in cruise control is designed to maintain a set speed rather than have the vehicle drive as you may with your foot controlling the accelerator.
If you go slower you will save a bit more fuel but I choose to travel along with the flow of traffic where possible rather than having everyone trying to pass me.
I hope this helps.
Have travelled from Melbourne to our current spot in Geraldton. Some of the legs saw the side winds buffet us so badly we struggled for momentum. No issues at all with sway, so van is properly packed.
Had the Richards torque converter lockup kit fitted in Murray Bridge before crossing the Nullarbor. While I have not seen any huge reductions in fuel consumption, except where stated below. Where it is at it's best is holding gears up the hill, making it a completely different driving/towing experience. No more struggling except on the most extreme of hills. Also where I would see consumption climb in hilly places, it seems to hold the fuel use quite steady with minimal change compared to before the installation. Off the line with a caravan is more fleet of foot to get moving, rather than chugging off the line beforehand.
The Scangauge is so handy to keep a watch on the auto trans temperature & makes you aware of choosing the right gears.
In summary, am very happy with the driveability post fitting of the kit. Would recommend it if you are considering having it done. Also for the record, I had no ECU modification at all.
Interesting to hear that you only installed the lockup kit without the remap and it holds the beats longer.
This is what I was wanting to do but was advised that I needed the remap to to stop it changing down when I come across anything that even looks like a hill.
so you dont feel the need to get a trans remap at all and which lockup kit did you get?
Cheers, Kev
Because I had the Prado, they said they prefer not to remap them. I must admit I also preferred not to get a remap done purely from wanting to not mess with the factory parameters should any issue arise, especially while towing.
Who was going to install your kit & which one Kev? Richards at Murray Bridge did mine & the info above came from the main man Stefan.
I was going to install myself, Im in Perth.
Was looking at the Stocklock but since you are saying yours holds the gears more I will do a bit more research on the Richards. Thanks
They should have someone in Perth you can talk to, or contact them in Murray Bridge & get advice on your rig setup.
Ill contact them in Murray Bridge so I get the info first hand - thanks
The main reason why the automatic transmission is programmed the way it is, i.e. it unlocks the torque converter so readily at the slightest hint of a hill, etc is all to do with compliance with NOx emissions requirements.
If the auto gearbox keeps the torque converter locked when under heavy loads, two things happen - fuel mixture becomes richer due to increased load, ergo increased fuelling. In a petrol engine, a richer fuel mixture will lead to cooler running, but in a diesel engine, richer fuel-to-air ratio will result in greater heat generation. To the point where the pistons can get excessively hot and exhaust gas temperatures escalate hundreds of degrees. Not good for pistons, turbos and most of all, NOx emissions go through the roof. Which is bad for the environment.
So to reduce rich fuelling, the best way is to select a lower gear, to keep the revs up high. Hence Toyota recommend towing in S4. At 100km/hr the 200 Series is revving quite fast, and most people equate high revs with high fuel consumption. But the reality is that high revs when towing is actually better for the engine because piston and turbos run cooler, and also good for the environment because NOx emissions is much lower.
Fitting a lockup kit might improve fuel economy and allow the driver to tow in a higher gear but you will notice EGRs will run much higher going up a long hill in 5th gear locked, compared to 4th gear.
I want to fit a torque converter lockup kit for those slow hill climbs where speeds drop below S4 lockup, i.e. below 80 km/hr. If I can lock up 3rd gear at slower speeds, I can still maintain high revs, low gear and keep the transmission fluid temperatures in check as well as EGTs. However spending $500-$700 for a lockup kit just to lock up 3rd gear is a very expensive exercise.
I don't tow, but those figures are basically relatively the same as a percentage for me, headwind vs tailwind.
If not in a rush & there is a strong headwind, stop for the day. Why burn money pointlessly.
Driving a bit slower saves fuel.
The facts about towing with an automatic, is dont tow in Drive and never use the cruise control.
What gear should you use, findout which gear ratio is 1:1 and that is your cruising gear. Lock up kits and remapping are a waste of money all they do is encourage lazy driving habits.
Tuesday I had a 200 series tow a big off road dual axle caravan in the 110kph speed zone overtake me when I was sitting on the speed limit, he weaved his way through the traffic ahead of us and gone out of sight very quickly at a rough guess he was doing 120kph or better. What do you think his fuel consumption would be?
This is as good as it gets. 100% correct. I have a lockup kit (Richards) which was included in the ECU remap.
The remap yielded more torque (and power) and therefore was able to use a higher gear. Potential problem was
detected when EGR temps were climbing when using a higher gear.
So yes, lockup in higher gear but higher then normal EGR. Fact is that the modern diesel power plant is
required to spin and opposed to older style which were happy to be lugger around. Whilst the power plant like
to spin this is not the same as a petrol engine. Actually somewhere in between. The 'higher' revs allow the engine
to get rid of hot gases and thereby keep temps down.
In the case of an LC200, towing using S4 and an GPS speed of 90 - 95 will yield the best compromise between
fuel usage and forward progress. LCOOL can no longer be access but there was hundreds of postings from
members stating exactly that from their experience.
Stretch.
If I owned your VW when towing 3000kg I would be in 6th gear which is 1:1, 7th and 8th are both overdrive.
In 6th cruising at 95kph I reckon could deliver between 13-15l/100k , and when towing 100k is fast enough.
-- Edited by Gundog on Monday 17th of July 2023 11:26:39 AM
Touareg V10 ?
His is a V6 8speed Amarock
Stretch
it s very easy to get better fuel economy in a lower gear as the engine runs far more efficiently. Many people make tge same assumption as you have, lower revs means less fuel. They're wrong.
Think about riding a bicycle, and how much harder it is to move if you're in a high gear. Cheers
Modern diesel prefer to rev then be lugged around.
Confusion between the way a petrol engine operated and a diesel. More the likely a higher gear in a petrol vehicle but not so much
in a modern diesel.
Personal experience as well as many members of the LCOOL forum reported that when towing there was no difference in fuel
consumption, other than a bee's dick, between 4th & 5th. Main difference was EGT.