Hi guys - Windy day so hunkered down inside my old Jayco poptop - Looking at the new Jurgens van beside me with a you beaut Alko anti sway hitch coupling - i am thinking why don't i fit one of those and remove my old 4 bar back breaking sway / equalizer bars that are such a pain to hitch up and unhitch . Has anyone retro fitted a friction anti sway coupling and would comment on how they compare to the old style sway bars in ride safety and handling . The old 4 bar tried and true set up make my van run like its on rails but even with a back saver helping tool are hard work , and i would be very happy not to have to fight with them every time to hitch up , unhitch , and store them .
PeterD said
08:42 AM Aug 19, 2018
Paulo, the bars you are referring to are not anti sway devices even if some not very switched on vanners still refer to then as sway bars. The bars you are referring to are a WDH (weight distribution hitch.) See this link. Also Weight Distribution Video.
The AlKo hitch does the same thing as the HR Friction Sway Control. These are used in conjunction with a WDH. There are models of the AlKo hitch that are strong enough to use with WDH so if you want a friction coupling to use on your van get the model that can be used with WDH.
The Jurgens vans are built like the European vans. Their design concentrates the heavy bits of the vans in the middle, have smaller boots in the front and do not have anything mounted on the back. They are also lighter in construction and thus their yaw tendencies are less and thus they get away with a lighter ball weight ratio (ie they have lighter weights than Oz or US vans.) With lighter ball weight ratios they are less reliant on WDH to maintain stability in your tug.
-- Edited by PeterD on Sunday 19th of August 2018 08:43:50 AM
Jaahn said
09:59 AM Aug 19, 2018
Hi Paulo and Peter
While the old 4 bar equaliser /sway bars may be old fashioned they work well IMHO. Indeed they really are dual function as Paulo says. They are not just WDH bars as Peter infers but effectively do both jobs well. They might be a PTIA to set up if you travel every day perhaps but I found they can enable a 'run on rails' feel if correctly setup.
I fail to see how having a coupling that just clamps onto the sides of the ball will be as good. Indeed it may tend to turn the ball and loosen it. Most European balls are on a shank or arm which fits to the towbar not just a ball bolted into a hole.
Perhaps Paulo you are pulling the bars up more than necessary and making more work than required. I cannot judge from here. The HR designs are so heavy and over complicated they look like something from the railways not to mention the cost.
Jaahn
rockylizard said
11:18 AM Aug 19, 2018
Gday...
Perhaps it might help if we determine just what we are all talking about.
Paulo, is this the 'my old 4 bar back breaking sway / equalizer bars"?
It is Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) - read here - which also says -
"The vertical connection of the bars to the Caravan A-Frame also assists in reducing sway, by gently returning the A-frame to be directly behind the towing vehicle."
Or do you have something different?
Cheers - John
Paulo said
12:06 PM Aug 19, 2018
Thanks Guys for your discussion - I do understand that they are two different things engineering function wise . Thanks rockylizard , mine are similar to the picture you have shown but have a "L" bracket fixed to the drawbar / A frame , not chains and are seen on many older style vans with axle leaf spring suspension .The bars slide in the "L" bracket and most people put a bit of old plastic cutting board shaped to fit under them to stop the metal to metal screech noise . My rig sits nice and straight thanks to air bags & heavy towing coil springs on my little Hyundai Santa-fe diesel which is a great little tug up to 2000kg & 150 ball weight . I mainly use the old bars because they were on the van when I bought it second hand and for sway safety as they do apply downward pressure to the A frame . I have been too scared to try it without them quite frankly being new to the grey nomad lifestyle caravan capers and still developing my towing skills , at 70years of age , but always willing to have a go . I am keen to make my setup the best it can be considering it is of the older technology ilk and keep thinking of ways that can be achieved , plus saving my back with creating lifting advantages . I have fitted caravan movers which are a great advantage which many vans in the UK have due to space limitations of driveways and van sites , etc . But the old saying applies in this case " lesser of evils making it worse or better ? "
PeterD said
12:54 PM Aug 19, 2018
Jaahn wrote:
Hi Paulo and Peter
While the old 4 bar equaliser /sway bars may be old fashioned they work well IMHO. Indeed they really are dual function as Paulo says. They are not just WDH bars as Peter infers but effectively do both jobs well. They might be a PTIA to set up if you travel every day perhaps but I found they can enable a 'run on rails' feel if correctly setup.
I fail to see how having a coupling that just clamps onto the sides of the ball will be as good. Indeed it may tend to turn the ball and loosen it. Most European balls are on a shank or arm which fits to the towbar not just a ball bolted into a hole.
Perhaps Paulo you are pulling the bars up more than necessary and making more work than required. I cannot judge from here. The HR designs are so heavy and over complicated they look like something from the railways not to mention the cost.
What a load of horses droppings. The friction of the shepherds crook bars in their cradles is only sufficient to upset the operation of over ride brakes and nothing more. Compare the friction of the bars in their cradles to the HR friction device I linked for you. The friction provided by the shepherds crook bars is so pee weak to make them ineffectual. In fact way back when the shepherd crook bars were the only form of WDH available they were used on vans with over ride brakes and those with the bars were able to wear out their brake linings at near the same rate as those who did not use them.
I fail to see how having a coupling that just clamps onto the sides of the ball will be as good. You can over tighten the AlKo type ball friction hitches just as you can the HR types. If it is possible to over tighten them then why can't they be as good for the lighter vans that they are designed to be used with? Even the HR bar style run out of steam on larger vans and the fitting of two units is recommended on those large vans. Let's get real, you are comparing equipment that was designed when the large vans were less than 1500 kg loaded with equipment designed for out larger vans.
As for the last paragraph???????????????? - Camec rate the shepherds crook bars for ball weights up to 120 kg. Back when Tom Althoff (an engineering type and a caravanner) was active he gave a more realistic 90 kg max ball weight limit for them. Paulo, if the ball weight of your van is over 100 kg you need a WDH with a higher rating. It's no good sending a boy out to do a mans job. I consider the remark "look like something from the railways" a disparaging and inappropriate description of equipment designed to do real work. It's a bit like the disparaging remark calling a Bushtracker caravan a shipping container on wheels.
PeterD said
01:23 PM Aug 19, 2018
Paulo wrote:
My rig sits nice and straight thanks to air bags & heavy towing coil springs on my little Hyundai Santa-fe diesel which is a great little tug up to 2000kg & 150 ball weight . I mainly use the old bars because they were on the van when I bought it second hand and for sway safety as they do apply downward pressure to the A frame .
Paulo, your rig may "sit nice and straight thanks to air bags & heavy towing coil springs" but that is just purely cosmetic. The reason that some tugs look "down at the heal" is because their rear axle is overloaded an the front axle has become overloaded. Suspension modifications will not correct the rear axle overloading. The only way you can do that is by removing a considerable proportion of the load in the rear of the tug and/or employing WDH. Nissan, who recommend you don't use WDH, provide a table or reduced GVM ratings when vans are hitched. Other manufacturers so not supply that data but the laws of physics apply equally to all vehicles and you have to work out your own maximum loadings for all other tugs. You say "as they do apply downward pressure to the A frame." Of course they apply pressure. All WDH apply pressure to the draw bar. If there was no pressure from the bars you would not have to struggle to hitch them up. If you decide that the cost of changing your equipment is not worth the cost then suggest you purchase and use this Adjustable Backsaver to install load equalisers.
Paulo said
02:08 PM Aug 19, 2018
Thanks Peter your succinct comments confirm my suspicions that magic fixes are not easy come by , perhaps this is why modern vans with better suspension cost big bucks and make life easier . I do have a back saver thanks , I am considering making it a greater lift advantage by changing the design to push down with a counter lever chain which would enable lifting the spine ,opposed to applying weight to it as I have had spinal surgery some years ago and need to find different ways of doing things .
Jaahn said
06:30 PM Aug 19, 2018
Hi PeterD
You are entitled to your opinion and to say it also
The friction of the sheperds crook bars is not so weak as it comes mostly from the bars in the holes in the tow ball bracket as well as the coupling on the ball and the smallest friction effect from the bars in the Aframe brackets. All that friction acts to damp the swaying effect which causes insability.
As far as the HR "railway" engineered stuff. I have been in engineering for a lot of years and constructed a lot of rigs to do various work sometimes at high loads and am singularly unimpressed with their designs and construction. The weight of the parts is also excessive. My opinion and I stand by it.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 19th of August 2018 06:34:41 PM
woofta and precious said
09:16 PM Aug 19, 2018
*and
aussie_paul said
09:31 PM Aug 19, 2018
Jaahn wrote:
Hi PeterD
You are entitled to your opinion and to say it also
The friction of the sheperds crook bars is not so weak as it comes mostly from the bars in the holes in the tow ball bracket as well as the coupling on the ball and the smallest friction effect from the bars in the Aframe brackets. All that friction acts to damp the swaying effect which causes insability.
As far as the HR "railway" engineered stuff. I have been in engineering for a lot of years and constructed a lot of rigs to do various work sometimes at high loads and am singularly unimpressed with their designs and construction. The weight of the parts is also excessive.My opinion and I stand by it.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 19th of August 2018 06:34:41 PM
My uneducated bush mechanic experience agrees Jaahn.
Hi guys - Windy day so hunkered down inside my old Jayco poptop - Looking at the new Jurgens van beside me with a you beaut Alko anti sway hitch coupling - i am thinking why don't i fit one of those and remove my old 4 bar back breaking sway / equalizer bars that are such a pain to hitch up and unhitch . Has anyone retro fitted a friction anti sway coupling and would comment on how they compare to the old style sway bars in ride safety and handling . The old 4 bar tried and true set up make my van run like its on rails but even with a back saver helping tool are hard work , and i would be very happy not to have to fight with them every time to hitch up , unhitch , and store them .
Paulo, the bars you are referring to are not anti sway devices even if some not very switched on vanners still refer to then as sway bars. The bars you are referring to are a WDH (weight distribution hitch.) See this link. Also Weight Distribution Video.
The AlKo hitch does the same thing as the HR Friction Sway Control. These are used in conjunction with a WDH. There are models of the AlKo hitch that are strong enough to use with WDH so if you want a friction coupling to use on your van get the model that can be used with WDH.
The Jurgens vans are built like the European vans. Their design concentrates the heavy bits of the vans in the middle, have smaller boots in the front and do not have anything mounted on the back. They are also lighter in construction and thus their yaw tendencies are less and thus they get away with a lighter ball weight ratio (ie they have lighter weights than Oz or US vans.) With lighter ball weight ratios they are less reliant on WDH to maintain stability in your tug.
-- Edited by PeterD on Sunday 19th of August 2018 08:43:50 AM
Hi Paulo and Peter
While the old 4 bar equaliser /sway bars may be old fashioned they work well IMHO. Indeed they really are dual function as Paulo says. They are not just WDH bars as Peter infers but effectively do both jobs well. They might be a PTIA to set up if you travel every day perhaps but I found they can enable a 'run on rails' feel if correctly setup.
I fail to see how having a coupling that just clamps onto the sides of the ball will be as good. Indeed it may tend to turn the ball and loosen it. Most European balls are on a shank or arm which fits to the towbar not just a ball bolted into a hole.
Perhaps Paulo you are pulling the bars up more than necessary and making more work than required. I cannot judge from here. The HR designs are so heavy and over complicated they look like something from the railways
not to mention the cost.
Jaahn
Gday...
Perhaps it might help if we determine just what we are all talking about.
Paulo, is this the 'my old 4 bar back breaking sway / equalizer bars"?
It is Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) - read here - which also says -
"The vertical connection of the bars to the Caravan A-Frame also assists in reducing sway, by gently returning the A-frame to be directly behind the towing vehicle."
Or do you have something different?
Cheers - John
What a load of horses droppings. The friction of the shepherds crook bars in their cradles is only sufficient to upset the operation of over ride brakes and nothing more. Compare the friction of the bars in their cradles to the HR friction device I linked for you. The friction provided by the shepherds crook bars is so pee weak to make them ineffectual. In fact way back when the shepherd crook bars were the only form of WDH available they were used on vans with over ride brakes and those with the bars were able to wear out their brake linings at near the same rate as those who did not use them.
I fail to see how having a coupling that just clamps onto the sides of the ball will be as good. You can over tighten the AlKo type ball friction hitches just as you can the HR types. If it is possible to over tighten them then why can't they be as good for the lighter vans that they are designed to be used with? Even the HR bar style run out of steam on larger vans and the fitting of two units is recommended on those large vans. Let's get real, you are comparing equipment that was designed when the large vans were less than 1500 kg loaded with equipment designed for out larger vans.
As for the last paragraph???????????????? - Camec rate the shepherds crook bars for ball weights up to 120 kg. Back when Tom Althoff (an engineering type and a caravanner) was active he gave a more realistic 90 kg max ball weight limit for them. Paulo, if the ball weight of your van is over 100 kg you need a WDH with a higher rating. It's no good sending a boy out to do a mans job. I consider the remark "look like something from the railways" a disparaging and inappropriate description of equipment designed to do real work. It's a bit like the disparaging remark calling a Bushtracker caravan a shipping container on wheels.
Paulo, your rig may "sit nice and straight thanks to air bags & heavy towing coil springs" but that is just purely cosmetic. The reason that some tugs look "down at the heal" is because their rear axle is overloaded an the front axle has become overloaded. Suspension modifications will not correct the rear axle overloading. The only way you can do that is by removing a considerable proportion of the load in the rear of the tug and/or employing WDH. Nissan, who recommend you don't use WDH, provide a table or reduced GVM ratings when vans are hitched. Other manufacturers so not supply that data but the laws of physics apply equally to all vehicles and you have to work out your own maximum loadings for all other tugs. You say "as they do apply downward pressure to the A frame." Of course they apply pressure. All WDH apply pressure to the draw bar. If there was no pressure from the bars you would not have to struggle to hitch them up. If you decide that the cost of changing your equipment is not worth the cost then suggest you purchase and use this Adjustable Backsaver to install load equalisers.
Hi PeterD
You are entitled to your opinion and to say it also
The friction of the sheperds crook bars is not so weak as it comes mostly from the bars in the holes in the tow ball bracket as well as the coupling on the ball and the smallest friction effect from the bars in the Aframe brackets. All that friction acts to damp the swaying effect which causes insability.
As far as the HR "railway" engineered stuff. I have been in engineering for a lot of years and constructed a lot of rigs to do various work sometimes at high loads and am singularly unimpressed with their designs and construction. The weight of the parts is also excessive. My opinion and I stand by it.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 19th of August 2018 06:34:41 PM
*and
My uneducated bush mechanic experience agrees Jaahn.
Aussie Paul.