Hi, at the real risk of kicking off yet another too techo discussion/argument (that I'm sure pi@@es off & fails to educate most of us), I offer this article that gives a brief overview of the use of Lithium Batteries in RVs.
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 22nd of August 2018 10:05:07 AM
Edits .. having trouble with the link
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 22nd of August 2018 10:07:35 AM
Aus-Kiwi said
11:29 AM Aug 22, 2018
Itâs the initial set up expence !! Agree but try explaining an extra 2 or 3k over AGL . Mind you even with AGL there is a big price difference . Are the cheaper batteries at half the price ? Last half the distance ? Most are only concerned for the next 5 or 6 years . With proper care lead acid should last the distance . Itâs the heavy use where Lithium comes into its own plus weight saving . I have lithium battery on my lawn mower . For $160 I thought ok it will last ( I hope ) one year while we are away so starting mower wonât be an issue plus supply fuel etc . Well ? Five years on its still working like new . Btw the battery replacement is just under $100 .. Makes whole mower a bargain . Quiet too . For this petrol head !! Lol
Dave1952 said
12:38 PM Aug 22, 2018
There has been a great deal of publicity on the news and Australian Mining, as well as Australian Stocks lately and it seems that lithium (if the pundits are correct) is the way of the future. That was a good report Aus-Kiwi. I have two lithium batteries for my cordless, and I purchased it in 2015 when the lithium batteries were fresh on the market for my cordless. They hold charge very well and when one does go flat, I simply change over to the other and away I go again.
Also, the Australian Mining magazine published articles recently stating that WA will soon have the two to three largest lithium mines in the world. How true this is, I don't know, but it is certainly food for thought.
Finally, there have been recommendations by those "in the know" (supposedly) that Lithium stocks are the place to invest at present. Again, I don't know, as I have never followed the Stock market. I am simply passing on reports.
T1 Terry said
01:41 PM Aug 22, 2018
Ran a bit short on time to read through an advertorial type article but a few things stood out after the 2nd page. No idea where this 80% depth of discharge comes from because it isn't based on test results or facts. Depends on the quality you buy of course, but 2000 cycles to 80% being the life of the battery reads to me as very poor quality lithium batteries. 2000 cycles = 5 1/2 yrs yet we have a 200Ah battery pack we service for a customer that is 7 yrs old and still has 100% of the advertised capacity at the full 50 amps per 100Ah or in this case 100amp load for the 200Ah battery. So that is 1 1/2 yrs past the quoted cycle life and a 100% discharge not 80% discharge and still has its full advertised capacity.
The next one was the power to weight to available, if you can get 100Ah from a 16kg battery yet 50Ah out of a 32kg battery, it looks to me the comparison on a power to weight basis is 16kg v 64kg for the same 100Ah if you really want a 12v battery and not a 10v or less battery.
It does look like I'll have to do a 5 amp load test on a 100Ah lithium battery till the terminal voltage drops to 12v to give a comparison capacity to an AGM battery, then maybe down to 10v to give a total capacity, it won't harm the lithium battery but I wouldn't like to do it to an AGM battery and still expect to get a decent service life from it.
T1 Terry
Aus-Kiwi said
02:27 PM Aug 22, 2018
I think he was using that as an example . Yes they are not as delicate in this area!! No nit picking .,
Eaglemax said
08:56 AM Aug 23, 2018
We are on holiday. When our AGM battery falls to 11.5v our TV and compressor fridge wont continue to work. So its pointless having a battery with the ability to continuing to operate below that voltage.
The prices are way out of reach for many of us. Esp when it needs a special charger. No point in some saying "its worth the expense " when its unaffordable
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Thursday 23rd of August 2018 08:57:17 AM
Bagmaker said
09:10 AM Aug 23, 2018
that is one bonus with lithium Eaglemax, the voltage sag doesnt occur until its almost completely discharged.
So you dont get to 11.5v for a lot longer....
Grandad5 said
10:03 AM Aug 23, 2018
Terry, I didn't bother reading the article as I'm already sold. I don't need to read that they are a game changer. But reading your comments my reaction was they were possibly stating worst case scenarios for the "average" punter who may or may not set things up properly nor maintain their cells as they should.
As to price, I agree its a major consideration and I think it all boils down to what do you want to do while you're out and about and for how long.
Happy with some LED lights and charging your laptop? AGM will do you nicely.
But if you want more and will be wanting that for quite a long time then lithium makes economic sense.
In my case, when I costed up the cost of a new 3way fridge, gas cooktops etc, it was a no brainer compared to a $250 bar fridge and a $50 induction cooktop.
My intended lithium setup will probably prove to be cheaper. If its a bit more? The other advantages of fast recharge etc would still sway me in that direction.
So, all electric for me and totally self sufficient for an indefinite time except for water.
Jim
Cupie said
10:09 AM Aug 23, 2018
We all have differing requirements & perhaps financials.
In my case, we rarely bush camp so the 12v system is not a critical issue for us. I recently had to replace my 12v system due to the failure of the charger, so I elected to go for a simple & relatively cheap DIY AGM/solar set up (135Ahr AGM & 200w fixed solar). Probably works well, haven't really tried it out over an extended period. 3 way (Gas for camping) fridge & gas HWS, all LED lighting.
In any case at age 77 my caravanning especially bush camping days are probably short term. Consequently a system that is likely to last 5 years and at an affordable price fits my situation.
I won't be going to Lithium any time soon.
Ron-D said
11:15 AM Aug 23, 2018
Lithium is the best ,most manage without needing it all to run everything they require,thats a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt in my view. You can run much more with lithium but do you need too?if your happy with what you have thats all that matters why shell out big bucks its non sense if its not needed ,and your managing to do everything you want to do ...
Mike Harding said
01:36 PM Aug 23, 2018
Whilst I agree that lithium batteries will supersede lead-acid in many applications they do have a few disadvantages:
Their temperature specs. are not as good as lead-acid and they can be destroyed by being charged at low temperatures.
They are currently far too expensive for most domestic application.
Their warranties are too short - most seem to be three years, I'd be pretty upset if my $1200 battery failed at 37 months! If they really are so good then let's see sellers putting their money where their mouth is and offering six year plus warranties.
Grandad5 said
10:02 AM Aug 24, 2018
Mike Harding wrote:
Their temperature specs. are not as good as lead-acid and they can be destroyed by being charged at low temperatures.
They are currently far too expensive for most domestic application.
Their warranties are too short - most seem to be three years, I'd be pretty upset if my $1200 battery failed at 37 months! If they really are so good then let's see sellers putting their money where their mouth is and offering six year plus warranties.
I should probably let Terry answer this as he's far more experienced than I am. But these seem simple enough concerns that even I might be able to help.
Very recently, on another thread it was stated that lithium are good down to -20* C. Warranties are usually given on the sale of battery alone with zero knowledge from the sellers point of view of how they may be installed, used or maintained. Therefore must in all good business sense be based on a worse case scenarios.
Installed correctly and maintained there are people on this very forum with installs much older than your stated six years. Or, one could conceivably destroy a cell on the very first day if no homework was done first.
Cost must always be judged on value for money. I'm sure very few chose their tow vehicle based on which one was the cheapest with no regard to anything else. But rather, based on what we require it to do and will that vehicle give us what we want and then, what is the best option considering all of that plus cost.
Batteries are no different and exactly like tow vehicles, what we want them to do will be different for all of us and therefore the cost may or may not be prohibitive.
(And please. Let's not have any of the usual. AGM can do everything lithium can do. PLEASE. That debate has been done to death. )
Cheers
Jim
-- Edited by Grandad5 on Friday 24th of August 2018 10:04:27 AM
Bagmaker said
10:43 AM Aug 24, 2018
Mike Harding wrote:
Whilst I agree that lithium batteries will supersede lead-acid in many applications they do have a few disadvantages:
Their temperature specs. are not as good as lead-acid and they can be destroyed by being charged at low temperatures.
They are currently far too expensive for most domestic application.
Their warranties are too short - most seem to be three years, I'd be pretty upset if my $1200 battery failed at 37 months! If they really are so good then let's see sellers putting their money where their mouth is and offering six year plus warranties.
for a domestic setup you would probably use flow battery or salt-water batteries.
For RV/ caravan use there are bonuses of weight and compactness for Lithium
Surprising that folks think they are expensive, if you do do the math per A/h, lithium works out much cheaper.
Have a look at lead crystal if you are happy with the weight disadvantage but unhappy with the price
-- Edited by Bagmaker on Friday 24th of August 2018 10:44:09 AM
Aus-Kiwi said
11:15 AM Aug 24, 2018
Yes . Itâs the BUDGET in the first place . I do ok with old style . Trust me I can afford to spend more if I wanted to . Keep in mind in my case I doubled what was already fitted ., Solar and battery .
T1 Terry said
05:07 PM Aug 24, 2018
Mike Harding wrote:
Whilst I agree that lithium batteries will supersede lead-acid in many applications they do have a few disadvantages:
Their temperature specs. are not as good as lead-acid and they can be destroyed by being charged at low temperatures.
They are currently far too expensive for most domestic application.
Their warranties are too short - most seem to be three years, I'd be pretty upset if my $1200 battery failed at 37 months! If they really are so good then let's see sellers putting their money where their mouth is and offering six year plus warranties.
I'll try to answer this for you. Lithium batteries using LYP cells can handle a higher temp than AGM batteries but not flooded cell batteries. The reason the flooded cell can handle higher temperatures is the water can be topped back up where it can't in an AGM battery nor can the electrolyte be topped up in an LYP cell lithium battery. Under bonnet install is the realm of flooded cell batteries, any other battery will have a shorter life because of lost electrolyte. As far as charging at low temperatures, way ahead of lead acid batteries because the electrolyte won't freeze above -20*C and even if you did charge them at this temp as long as the rate was 20 amps or less for a 100Ah battery they would be fine anyway because they would heat up a bit internally till they reached a point where they could accept the charge rate without heating up any further.
As far as price for a domestic application? I guess it depends on the domestic application. For a house set up like we have installed in off grid set ups they were cheaper than lead acid, heaps cheaper than flow cells and heaps and heaps cheaper than the salt water batteries because the freight to get the salt water batteries into the country from the US is insane.
As far as the warranty, if we design and install the system we give a 3yr renewable warranty. If the system comes back for a routine service in under 4 yrs we will provide a capacity test result and if the battery hasn't suffered abuse the results will show this and we offer another 3 yrs and so on. We have one install at 7 yrs plus at the moment and still shows 100% capacity so we will see that one back at around 10yrs of age. If it's still going strong then we will renew the 3 yrs warranty.
Yes, the initial system price is higher but surely the peace of mind and resale added value make it a good investment if the system comes with a full warranty and back up.
T1 Terry
Reed said
07:09 AM Aug 25, 2018
There are problems with LFP with charging below 0 C and operating above 45 C.
Our 9 kW hr LFP IN 11 m fifth wheel are in front bay. Using a 60 W bulb has kept bay above 5 C at -10 C. If we were planning to spend a lot of time in cold weather, than we would install a tunnel and blower from cabin to front bay. We keep main cabin around 9 C.
The 4.5 kW hr LFP in 6 m Roadtrek is under bed. Son installed a blower that pulls in cabin air when temperature is below 10 C or above 45 C. We keep the cabin above 9 C. The blower turning on first time startled us. It was - 10 C as we were transiting Texas in way to Yucatan. Temperature monitor is next to battery suite.
We have a remote thermometer ($20US in any hardware store) to monitor bay temoerature and have 12 and 120 V fans of temperature rose to greatly.
Reed and Elaine
T1 Terry said
12:05 PM Aug 25, 2018
Reed wrote:
There are problems with LFP with charging below 0 C and operating above 45 C.
Our 9 kW hr LFP IN 11 m fifth wheel are in front bay. Using a 60 W bulb has kept bay above 5 C at -10 C. If we were planning to spend a lot of time in cold weather, than we would install a tunnel and blower from cabin to front bay. We keep main cabin around 9 C.
The 4.5 kW hr LFP in 6 m Roadtrek is under bed. Son installed a blower that pulls in cabin air when temperature is below 10 C or above 45 C. We keep the cabin above 9 C. The blower turning on first time startled us. It was - 10 C as we were transiting Texas in way to Yucatan. Temperature monitor is next to battery suite.
We have a remote thermometer ($20US in any hardware store) to monitor bay temoerature and have 12 and 120 V fans of temperature rose to greatly.
Reed and Elaine
This was part of the reason for Winston upgrading their cell chemistry from LFP to LYP, so they could handle a wider temperature range. That range is now -20*C to 60*C using upper limits being of the full discharge/recharge capability, they can go a little higher and many of the drag race people do exactly that because it improves the ability to draw off current at a high rate without as much voltage sag but at a cost to cycle life.
I guess other brand cells that use the older LFP chemistry will be still limited to the narrower temperature range but as house battery use the lower limit isn't quite so rigid. The older type Thundersky LFP had operating range limits of -25*C to 75*C as long as the charge and discharge rate remained below 30 amps per 100Ah capacity. The newer Winston LYP chemistry has extended that to -45*C and 85*C with a limit of 50 amps per 100Ah capacity so well inside the average RV use window. I did notice the CALB CA series cells have the 0*C to 45*C charging window but possibly due to a modified plate design and electrolyte mix to allow the higher short term discharge rates of 1000 amps for 10 secs from a 100Ah cell, not quite RV stuff eh :lol: and that is why these cells do not suit house battery use, horses for courses as someone has already said, these are designed as pure high performance electric vehicle batteries not really suited to RV use
T1 Terry
Reed said
01:00 PM Aug 29, 2018
Thanks Terry
Did not know about LVP. There are a number of chemistries under development that should be available fairly soon. LFP has proven quite successful for us the last 4 1/2 years and we are now 78 and hopeful of full time RVing for a few more years. Are getting pickup and 10 m fifth wheel ready for 3000 km drive to Yucatan and possibly Belize.
We have not plugged in for a few years and never used generator, but it is there.
Purchased a used Klepper fold boat to paddle about in Yucatan. Aluminet has been so successful that we have special ordered a 3 m x 10 m piece.
T1 Terry said
02:08 PM Aug 29, 2018
Hi Reed, as long as you don't push them over 3.6v in any cell and keep them better than 2.8v in any cell they will just keep doing the job. They are really hard to kill but that doesn't mean they can't be killed :lol: You system for keeping them warm should cover any problems from that damaging them, we don't see temperatures that low over here but we do see warm ones during summer.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 29th of August 2018 02:08:35 PM
Hi, at the real risk of kicking off yet another too techo discussion/argument (that I'm sure pi@@es off & fails to educate most of us), I offer this article that gives a brief overview of the use of Lithium Batteries in RVs.
http://rvdaily.com.au/rvd/issue029/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Are+lithium+batteries+a+game+changer%3F&utm_campaign=RV+Daily+Issue+029+-+Send+4#213
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 22nd of August 2018 10:05:07 AM
Edits .. having trouble with the link
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 22nd of August 2018 10:07:35 AM
Also, the Australian Mining magazine published articles recently stating that WA will soon have the two to three largest lithium mines in the world. How true this is, I don't know, but it is certainly food for thought.
Finally, there have been recommendations by those "in the know" (supposedly) that Lithium stocks are the place to invest at present. Again, I don't know, as I have never followed the Stock market. I am simply passing on reports.
The next one was the power to weight to available, if you can get 100Ah from a 16kg battery yet 50Ah out of a 32kg battery, it looks to me the comparison on a power to weight basis is 16kg v 64kg for the same 100Ah if you really want a 12v battery and not a 10v or less battery.
It does look like I'll have to do a 5 amp load test on a 100Ah lithium battery till the terminal voltage drops to 12v to give a comparison capacity to an AGM battery, then maybe down to 10v to give a total capacity, it won't harm the lithium battery but I wouldn't like to do it to an AGM battery and still expect to get a decent service life from it.
T1 Terry
We are on holiday. When our AGM battery falls to 11.5v our TV and compressor fridge wont continue to work. So its pointless having a battery with the ability to continuing to operate below that voltage.
The prices are way out of reach for many of us. Esp when it needs a special charger. No point in some saying "its worth the expense " when its unaffordable
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Thursday 23rd of August 2018 08:57:17 AM
So you dont get to 11.5v for a lot longer....
As to price, I agree its a major consideration and I think it all boils down to what do you want to do while you're out and about and for how long.
Happy with some LED lights and charging your laptop? AGM will do you nicely.
But if you want more and will be wanting that for quite a long time then lithium makes economic sense.
In my case, when I costed up the cost of a new 3way fridge, gas cooktops etc, it was a no brainer compared to a $250 bar fridge and a $50 induction cooktop.
My intended lithium setup will probably prove to be cheaper. If its a bit more? The other advantages of fast recharge etc would still sway me in that direction.
So, all electric for me and totally self sufficient for an indefinite time except for water.
Jim
We all have differing requirements & perhaps financials.
In my case, we rarely bush camp so the 12v system is not a critical issue for us. I recently had to replace my 12v system due to the failure of the charger, so I elected to go for a simple & relatively cheap DIY AGM/solar set up (135Ahr AGM & 200w fixed solar). Probably works well, haven't really tried it out over an extended period. 3 way (Gas for camping) fridge & gas HWS, all LED lighting.
In any case at age 77 my caravanning especially bush camping days are probably short term. Consequently a system that is likely to last 5 years and at an affordable price fits my situation.
I won't be going to Lithium any time soon.
Lithium is the best ,most manage without needing it all to run everything they require,thats a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt in my view. You can run much more with lithium but do you need too?if your happy with what you have thats all that matters why shell out big bucks its non sense if its not needed ,and your managing to do everything you want to do ...
Whilst I agree that lithium batteries will supersede lead-acid in many applications they do have a few disadvantages:
Their temperature specs. are not as good as lead-acid and they can be destroyed by being charged at low temperatures.
They are currently far too expensive for most domestic application.
Their warranties are too short - most seem to be three years, I'd be pretty upset if my $1200 battery failed at 37 months! If they really are so good then let's see sellers putting their money where their mouth is and offering six year plus warranties.
I should probably let Terry answer this as he's far more experienced than I am.
But these seem simple enough concerns that even I might be able to help.
Very recently, on another thread it was stated that lithium are good down to -20* C.
Warranties are usually given on the sale of battery alone with zero knowledge from the sellers point of view of how they may be installed, used or maintained. Therefore must in all good business sense be based on a worse case scenarios.
Installed correctly and maintained there are people on this very forum with installs much older than your stated six years.
Or, one could conceivably destroy a cell on the very first day if no homework was done first.
Cost must always be judged on value for money. I'm sure very few chose their tow vehicle based on which one was the cheapest with no regard to anything else.
But rather, based on what we require it to do and will that vehicle give us what we want and then, what is the best option considering all of that plus cost.
Batteries are no different and exactly like tow vehicles, what we want them to do will be different for all of us and therefore the cost may or may not be prohibitive.
(And please. Let's not have any of the usual. AGM can do everything lithium can do. PLEASE. That debate has been done to death. )
Cheers
Jim
-- Edited by Grandad5 on Friday 24th of August 2018 10:04:27 AM
for a domestic setup you would probably use flow battery or salt-water batteries.
For RV/ caravan use there are bonuses of weight and compactness for Lithium
Surprising that folks think they are expensive, if you do do the math per A/h, lithium works out much cheaper.
Have a look at lead crystal if you are happy with the weight disadvantage but unhappy with the price
-- Edited by Bagmaker on Friday 24th of August 2018 10:44:09 AM
I'll try to answer this for you. Lithium batteries using LYP cells can handle a higher temp than AGM batteries but not flooded cell batteries. The reason the flooded cell can handle higher temperatures is the water can be topped back up where it can't in an AGM battery nor can the electrolyte be topped up in an LYP cell lithium battery. Under bonnet install is the realm of flooded cell batteries, any other battery will have a shorter life because of lost electrolyte. As far as charging at low temperatures, way ahead of lead acid batteries because the electrolyte won't freeze above -20*C and even if you did charge them at this temp as long as the rate was 20 amps or less for a 100Ah battery they would be fine anyway because they would heat up a bit internally till they reached a point where they could accept the charge rate without heating up any further.
As far as price for a domestic application? I guess it depends on the domestic application. For a house set up like we have installed in off grid set ups they were cheaper than lead acid, heaps cheaper than flow cells and heaps and heaps cheaper than the salt water batteries because the freight to get the salt water batteries into the country from the US is insane.
As far as the warranty, if we design and install the system we give a 3yr renewable warranty. If the system comes back for a routine service in under 4 yrs we will provide a capacity test result and if the battery hasn't suffered abuse the results will show this and we offer another 3 yrs and so on. We have one install at 7 yrs plus at the moment and still shows 100% capacity so we will see that one back at around 10yrs of age. If it's still going strong then we will renew the 3 yrs warranty.
Yes, the initial system price is higher but surely the peace of mind and resale added value make it a good investment if the system comes with a full warranty and back up.
T1 Terry
Our 9 kW hr LFP IN 11 m fifth wheel are in front bay. Using a 60 W bulb has kept bay above 5 C at -10 C. If we were planning to spend a lot of time in cold weather, than we would install a tunnel and blower from cabin to front bay. We keep main cabin around 9 C.
The 4.5 kW hr LFP in 6 m Roadtrek is under bed. Son installed a blower that pulls in cabin air when temperature is below 10 C or above 45 C. We keep the cabin above 9 C. The blower turning on first time startled us. It was - 10 C as we were transiting Texas in way to Yucatan. Temperature monitor is next to battery suite.
We have a remote thermometer ($20US in any hardware store) to monitor bay temoerature and have 12 and 120 V fans of temperature rose to greatly.
Reed and Elaine
This was part of the reason for Winston upgrading their cell chemistry from LFP to LYP, so they could handle a wider temperature range. That range is now -20*C to 60*C using upper limits being of the full discharge/recharge capability, they can go a little higher and many of the drag race people do exactly that because it improves the ability to draw off current at a high rate without as much voltage sag but at a cost to cycle life.
I guess other brand cells that use the older LFP chemistry will be still limited to the narrower temperature range but as house battery use the lower limit isn't quite so rigid. The older type Thundersky LFP had operating range limits of -25*C to 75*C as long as the charge and discharge rate remained below 30 amps per 100Ah capacity. The newer Winston LYP chemistry has extended that to -45*C and 85*C with a limit of 50 amps per 100Ah capacity so well inside the average RV use window. I did notice the CALB CA series cells have the 0*C to 45*C charging window but possibly due to a modified plate design and electrolyte mix to allow the higher short term discharge rates of 1000 amps for 10 secs from a 100Ah cell, not quite RV stuff eh :lol: and that is why these cells do not suit house battery use, horses for courses as someone has already said, these are designed as pure high performance electric vehicle batteries not really suited to RV use
T1 Terry
Did not know about LVP. There are a number of chemistries under development that should be available fairly soon. LFP has proven quite successful for us the last 4 1/2 years and we are now 78 and hopeful of full time RVing for a few more years. Are getting pickup and 10 m fifth wheel ready for 3000 km drive to Yucatan and possibly Belize.
We have not plugged in for a few years and never used generator, but it is there.
Purchased a used Klepper fold boat to paddle about in Yucatan. Aluminet has been so successful that we have special ordered a 3 m x 10 m piece.
Hi Reed, as long as you don't push them over 3.6v in any cell and keep them better than 2.8v in any cell they will just keep doing the job. They are really hard to kill but that doesn't mean they can't be killed :lol: You system for keeping them warm should cover any problems from that damaging them, we don't see temperatures that low over here but we do see warm ones during summer.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 29th of August 2018 02:08:35 PM
reneweconomy.com.au/on-first-day-as-pm-morrison-learns-difference-between-big-battery-and-big-banana-84075/
Seems like the big battery did keep the lights on just by being there to handle grid fluctuations, something the other eastern states couldn't do although Qld kept their lights on some how.
T1 Terry