Loud resonance sound in vehicle when towing my caravan up steep incline.
GlobalTraveller said
12:19 PM Feb 18, 2019
Dear Forum
I am writing to try and find out if anyone has experienced a particular issue while towing their rig up steep hills. As there is a great deal information I have provided you with I have placed it all in the attachment rather than typing it here. A good deal of searching forums, especially Ford related, has revealed nothing to assist me or Ford to get to the bottom of the issue. The attachment explains the issue and the analysis to date.
Thanks again for any assistance you can provide me and I look forward to hearing back.
Check universals for movement , the other thing to check in the midway bearing on the tail shaft and its rubber mounting if it has one , I am not familiar with the ford tail shaft arrangement . Also check the diff pinion bearing for movement and also check the gearbox output shaft and tail shaft yoke for spline wear which they should have when they checked the gearbox ,but you dont know if you dont ask . Also check engine mounts not sure of the ford design but if the engine can twist enough under load maybe something is getting out of alignment . Long shot but check the alignment of all the universals on the tail shaft , also a long shot but check if it has lost a balance weight off the tail shaft Good luck
Woody
-- Edited by Woody n Sue on Monday 18th of February 2019 12:50:09 PM
GlobalTraveller said
01:11 PM Feb 18, 2019
Many thanks Woody. Ill take thrse comments to Ford now sothey canhavea look. Cheers Steve
Baz421 said
02:09 PM Feb 18, 2019
MMM Very interesting problem you have here.
Given what has been checked so far I would get Ford to check trans oil for overheating and signs of degradation. ie start simple checks. Then diff oil and any obvious play in pinion bearings.
Given that you are almost on your GCM ie heavy end of towing range and problem is on hills under load ,,, suggests driveline somewhere, including transmission,,, could be an issue.
Also could check uni joints for signs of degradation ie problem is under heavy load,,, dry uni joints can do this at times and is often the first sign of failure ie squeaking.
I wish you good hunting. It can be very frustrating.
markf said
02:21 PM Feb 18, 2019
I suspect that I'm being about as useful as a chocolate teapot here but here goes anyway. I drive a Discovery 2 and apart from the CAT these are the things that will produce horrible noises and vibrations for me.
In order of suspicion I'd be checking the exhaust system ESPECIALLY internals of the CAT converter. Get the CAT converter off and give it a good shake. If it makes noise get rid of it.
Check engine and gearbox mounts. If they're even a little bit sus get them changed.
Check the drive line - especially input bearings (diff(s)) and output bearings (g'box, transfer case, etc) UJ's and prop shaft(s).
And lastly - this has happened to me with very LOUD and similar noises. Check any heat shielding near the exhaust and turbo.
If your hand brake is a transmission brake (brake drum on tail shaft) pull it apart and tighten things up and re-adjust it.
Baz421 said
02:40 PM Feb 18, 2019
markf wrote:
I suspect that I'm being about as useful as a chocolate teapot here but here goes anyway. I drive a Discovery 2 and apart from the CAT these are the things that will produce horrible noises and vibrations for me.
In order of suspicion I'd be checking the exhaust system ESPECIALLY internals of the CAT converter. Get the CAT converter off and give it a good shake. If it makes noise get rid of it.
Check engine and gearbox mounts. If they're even a little bit sus get them changed.
Check the drive line - especially input bearings (diff(s)) and output bearings (g'box, transfer case, etc) UJ's and prop shaft(s).
And lastly - this has happened to me with very LOUD and similar noises. Check any heat shielding near the exhaust and turbo.
If your hand brake is a transmission brake (brake drum on tail shaft) pull it apart and tighten things up and re-adjust it.
Yes I was thinking CAT but Steve stated exhaust was changed,,, so maybe not included CAT. Also heat shielding is good check.
The things that have thrown me are under heavy load,,, change gears can go away???? why. Also not doing it when no caravan,,, this indicated high revs for load etc when van on.
Cheers
GlobalTraveller said
03:57 PM Feb 18, 2019
Thank you all for your comments. I popped into Ford and mentioned wverything you raised, including the CAT. they had checked most items on the list so we sat down and had a good discussion about the CAT. As it happens when they told me they had changed the exhaust i found out that the change didnt go as far as including the CAT. The discussion then went on to talk about a particular component in the Ford Territory exhaust system. Not sure where this part is located but it is under the passenger side floor and is a component that is flexible. The Ford mechanic mentioned that this component is used to deal with vibration and has multiple components internally in the tube/pipe. So that is what Ford will now do. They will replace this cmponent and we will retest. The chief mechanic was always certain it had to be exhaust related but they hadnt thought about this component; probably as it has never been raised as an issue in the Ford Territory, not on Ford Australias books. I know the part I am referring to is approximately $25 on eBay so not expensive if this is the issue. Ford have been very good. They are not charging me for any of the analysis to try and resolve this issue. Ill let you know what happens after i test the component change towing the van. Back to our Black Mountain Drive testing location. My thanks again. Im glad I wrote to the forum. Cheers Steve
markf said
04:05 PM Feb 18, 2019
GlobalTraveller wrote:
The discussion then went on to talk about a particular component in the Ford Territory exhaust system. Not sure where this part is located but it is under the passenger side floor and is a component that is flexible.
My D2 Td5 has a short section of flexible exhaust from the manifold to the down tube. This can make an UNHOLY din when it goes bad so that would certainly be worth looking at.
Hopefully yours is easier to change - mine's welded in so you have to cut the old one out and weld a new one in. Haven't land Rover hear of exhaust clamps ???
Steve to add another layer of test and confirmation that the noise is consistent, have you trailed the black mountain test track in manual mode.
I'm wondering if this noise is resonated and amplified in a particular gear.
GlobalTraveller said
10:10 AM Feb 19, 2019
Thanks Gundog.
Yes we did the test in manual mode and we could not replicate the noise. It only occurs at the moment in performance mode and letting the transmission deal with auto gear changes. Thanks again. Ill let you know the outcome of the tests we do with the changeover cat and the other part I mentioned above. Sorry i dont know what that part is called. Reading marfs comments re his fexible exhaust component I am hoping that will be the issue and its easily replaced on the Territory.
Cheers and my thanks again for your suggestion.
Steve
msg said
12:52 PM Feb 19, 2019
Steve, I have left you a personal message. In case you are not familiar with PM's look up to your login bar. Thanks
Gundog said
01:23 PM Feb 19, 2019
GlobalTraveller wrote:
Thanks Gundog.
Yes we did the test in manual mode and we could not replicate the noise. It only occurs at the moment in performance mode and letting the transmission deal with auto gear changes. Thanks again. Ill let you know the outcome of the tests we do with the changeover cat and the other part I mentioned above. Sorry i dont know what that part is called. Reading marfs comments re his fexible exhaust component I am hoping that will be the issue and its easily replaced on the Territory.
Cheers and my thanks again for your suggestion.
Steve
I think you have solved your problem, never use performance mode or full auto, as the shift patterns are not conducive to steep climbs, it's better to use manual mode particularly on steep climbs like King's
Triggy said
10:52 AM Feb 20, 2019
Steve,
When I worked for ford , The heat shield on the exhaust resonate's at a certain frequency under load if it is not secured properly (eg cracked or mounting to exhaust broken or damaged deformed ).
To locate try holding your foot hard on the brake with it in gear and bringing the revs up slowly to load the vehicle. When frequency point is reached where vibration is reproduced .
This was the usual cause of this problem you described .
Gary
GlobalTraveller said
01:42 PM Feb 20, 2019
Many thanks Gary. Will do and let Ford know.
Cheers
Steve
Jaybird said
08:27 AM Feb 26, 2019
Can't answer your problem but my experience was with a 2009 petrol model territory. At about 78 to 80 I would get a resonance sound from under the floor on the drivers side where the exhaust was, you could hear it above the radio. I never found the cause but was convinced it came from the exhaust. The car went well and had no signs of other problems. I feel you are on the right track and would keep investigating the exhaust. It will be interesting to find out.
GlobalTraveller said
12:32 PM Feb 26, 2019
Thanks Jaybird. Ford are delivering my car shortly and we will hitch the van and take for another test. The heat shield has been replaced in this test based on the comments above from an ex ford mechanic. I'll let you know how we go. I have never been to black mountain so many times but it is an ideal test ground in the ACT for this issue; and close by. Cheers Steve.
GlobalTraveller said
01:29 PM Mar 2, 2019
Dear Forum
Many thanks for all your assistance in trying to diagnose the issue with the resonance sound I am experiencing.
Well yesterday I had a new exhaust system fitted to see if that would finally solve the issue. We were all confident this would resolve the issue as it definitely sounded exhaust related and the vibration was coming from the area under the passenger floor where the exhaust runs back from the engine and includes the cat and the heat shield.
So I ran another test on Black Mountain road this morning. Unfortunately replacing the exhaust system has not resolved the issue. The only difference is that the vibration under the passenger seat floor was slightly less than with my old exhaust system fitted.
So on Monday it is back to the drawing board with Ford going to look for other areas of concern.
They only thing this test revealed was that after the resonance sound started, and stopped once at the top of the incline, there was a tendency for the resonance to start again (very slightly) when on a slight incline on the highway going home. I was accelerating and the resonance started slightly then stopped. I dont usually get any noise on this stretch of road from the other tests I have done. After travelling for 4 kilometres and reached another small incline, I accelerated but the sound did not occur.
I was also able to replicate the sound this time when in performance mode but manually selecting second gear. This occurred only on an incline when accelerating. Accelerating hard on the flat in second gear to try and replicate the force that is experienced on the incline did not cause an issue. Ford have checked the auto transmission already but they are going to have another look on Monday to see if there is anything they can find after doing several tests with the van over the last week.
So it is back to analysis mode again. Im sure Ill get there eventually and Ford has been excellent in spending the time to try and resolve. They also want to get to the bottom of this issue.
Dear Forum
I am writing to try and find out if anyone has experienced a particular issue while towing their rig up steep hills. As there is a great deal information I have provided you with I have placed it all in the attachment rather than typing it here. A good deal of searching forums, especially Ford related, has revealed nothing to assist me or Ford to get to the bottom of the issue. The attachment explains the issue and the analysis to date.
Thanks again for any assistance you can provide me and I look forward to hearing back.
Cheers
Steve
Check universals for movement , the other thing to check in the midway bearing on the tail shaft and its rubber mounting if it has one , I am not familiar with the ford tail shaft arrangement .
Also check the diff pinion bearing for movement and also check the gearbox output shaft and tail shaft yoke for spline wear which they should have when they checked the gearbox ,but you dont know if you dont ask .
Also check engine mounts not sure of the ford design but if the engine can twist enough under load maybe something is getting out of alignment .
Long shot but check the alignment of all the universals on the tail shaft , also a long shot but check if it has lost a balance weight off the tail shaft
Good luck
Woody
-- Edited by Woody n Sue on Monday 18th of February 2019 12:50:09 PM
MMM Very interesting problem you have here.
Given what has been checked so far I would get Ford to check trans oil for overheating and signs of degradation. ie start simple checks. Then diff oil and any obvious play in pinion bearings.
Given that you are almost on your GCM ie heavy end of towing range and problem is on hills under load ,,, suggests driveline somewhere, including transmission,,, could be an issue.
Also could check uni joints for signs of degradation ie problem is under heavy load,,, dry uni joints can do this at times and is often the first sign of failure ie squeaking.
I wish you good hunting. It can be very frustrating.
I suspect that I'm being about as useful as a chocolate teapot here but here goes anyway. I drive a Discovery 2 and apart from the CAT these are the things that will produce horrible noises and vibrations for me.
In order of suspicion I'd be checking the exhaust system ESPECIALLY internals of the CAT converter. Get the CAT converter off and give it a good shake. If it makes noise get rid of it.
Check engine and gearbox mounts. If they're even a little bit sus get them changed.
Check the drive line - especially input bearings (diff(s)) and output bearings (g'box, transfer case, etc) UJ's and prop shaft(s).
And lastly - this has happened to me with very LOUD and similar noises. Check any heat shielding near the exhaust and turbo.
If your hand brake is a transmission brake (brake drum on tail shaft) pull it apart and tighten things up and re-adjust it.
Yes I was thinking CAT but Steve stated exhaust was changed,,, so maybe not included CAT. Also heat shielding is good check.
The things that have thrown me are under heavy load,,, change gears can go away???? why. Also not doing it when no caravan,,, this indicated high revs for load etc when van on.
Cheers
My D2 Td5 has a short section of flexible exhaust from the manifold to the down tube. This can make an UNHOLY din when it goes bad so that would certainly be worth looking at.
Hopefully yours is easier to change - mine's welded in so you have to cut the old one out and weld a new one in. Haven't land Rover hear of exhaust clamps ???
Yes we did the test in manual mode and we could not replicate the noise. It only occurs at the moment in performance mode and letting the transmission deal with auto gear changes. Thanks again. Ill let you know the outcome of the tests we do with the changeover cat and the other part I mentioned above. Sorry i dont know what that part is called. Reading marfs comments re his fexible exhaust component I am hoping that will be the issue and its easily replaced on the Territory.
Cheers and my thanks again for your suggestion.
Steve
I think you have solved your problem, never use performance mode or full auto, as the shift patterns are not conducive to steep climbs, it's better to use manual mode particularly on steep climbs like King's
When I worked for ford , The heat shield on the exhaust resonate's at a certain frequency under load if it is not secured properly (eg cracked or mounting to exhaust broken or damaged deformed ).
To locate try holding your foot hard on the brake with it in gear and bringing the revs up slowly to load the vehicle. When frequency point is reached where vibration is reproduced .
This was the usual cause of this problem you described .
Gary
Many thanks Gary. Will do and let Ford know.
Cheers
Steve
Thanks Jaybird. Ford are delivering my car shortly and we will hitch the van and take for another test. The heat shield has been replaced in this test based on the comments above from an ex ford mechanic. I'll let you know how we go. I have never been to black mountain so many times but it is an ideal test ground in the ACT for this issue; and close by. Cheers Steve.
Many thanks for all your assistance in trying to diagnose the issue with the resonance sound I am experiencing.
Well yesterday I had a new exhaust system fitted to see if that would finally solve the issue. We were all confident this would resolve the issue as it definitely sounded exhaust related and the vibration was coming from the area under the passenger floor where the exhaust runs back from the engine and includes the cat and the heat shield.
So I ran another test on Black Mountain road this morning. Unfortunately replacing the exhaust system has not resolved the issue. The only difference is that the vibration under the passenger seat floor was slightly less than with my old exhaust system fitted.
So on Monday it is back to the drawing board with Ford going to look for other areas of concern.
They only thing this test revealed was that after the resonance sound started, and stopped once at the top of the incline, there was a tendency for the resonance to start again (very slightly) when on a slight incline on the highway going home. I was accelerating and the resonance started slightly then stopped. I dont usually get any noise on this stretch of road from the other tests I have done. After travelling for 4 kilometres and reached another small incline, I accelerated but the sound did not occur.
I was also able to replicate the sound this time when in performance mode but manually selecting second gear. This occurred only on an incline when accelerating. Accelerating hard on the flat in second gear to try and replicate the force that is experienced on the incline did not cause an issue. Ford have checked the auto transmission already but they are going to have another look on Monday to see if there is anything they can find after doing several tests with the van over the last week.
So it is back to analysis mode again. Im sure Ill get there eventually and Ford has been excellent in spending the time to try and resolve. They also want to get to the bottom of this issue.
Cheers and happy travels.
Steve