Hi All, 

We are looking at doing the Grey Nomad thing in about 18 months and are doing the research on caravans, specifically what can we tow. Vehicle is a Diesel 2012 LC Sahara, the max towing weight is 3500kg, GCM is 6850kg. 
One van we looked at today has an ATM of 3500kg, which is right on the tow veh limit. My thought is it is to close for comfort. 

I know if I weigh it and it is under 3500kg and the towball weight is within limits, I should be legal, BUT if I have an accident, will the insurance company ask questions re weight, i.e. is the weight of the van assumed to be 3500kg even if it is only part loaded to an ATM of say 3200kg?

I appreciate this may have been asked before, but I am a newbie on this forum

Thanks, Paul 

paulmartin wrote:

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Hi All, 

We are looking at doing the Grey Nomad thing in about 18 months and are doing the research on caravans, specifically what can we tow. Vehicle is a Diesel 2012 LC Sahara, the max towing weight is 3500kg, GCM is 6850kg. 
One van we looked at today has an ATM of 3500kg, which is right on the tow veh limit. My thought is it is to close for comfort. 

I know if I weigh it and it is under 3500kg and the towball weight is within limits, I should be legal, BUT if I have an accident, will the insurance company ask questions re weight, i.e. is the weight of the van assumed to be 3500kg even if it is only part loaded to an ATM of say 3200kg?

I appreciate this may have been asked before, but I am a newbie on this forum

Thanks, Paul 

---

Hi Paul.....let me get straight to the point.There is no way known that an LC200 can SAFELY tow a 3500kg van.NO WAY. They are a heavy car, taring at close to 2700kg,but the big problem is the  lightweight rear axle,which is rated at a miserable 1950kg.They also have a large towball overhang (distance from rear axle to hitch point) which means that a 350kg towball weight puts around 525kg onto your lightweight rear axle.You will no doubt get all sorts of advice on how a WDH will save the day,but this further increase the towball overhang,adding even MORE weight to the  rear axle,until it is tensioned.When the WDH is tensioned,it will put SOME weight back onto the front axle of the car,but it also transfers weight to the vans axle group,immediately overloading it.A WDH does not change towball weight,so if you have a 3500kg van with 350kg on the towball,obviously you will have 3150kg on your vans wheels (GTM,or gross trailer mass).As soon as you tension the WDH you transfer weight to the vans axle group and overload the van by exceeding your ATM.To answer your question,if the van is only partly loaded,you are under your ATM.Dont  get sucked in by the GVM upgrade brigade,as a 3850kg GVM upgrade looks great on paper,but only increases your rear axle to 2000kg.I wont say more at this stage,as weights are a minefield for beginners,but let me just say in simple terms....an LC200 CANNOT SAFELY TOW MORE THAN 3000kg,unless the trailer is a DOG trailer. Period. Cheers

P.S If you would like to discuss this in depth,just let me know via the forum,and I will send you a quick private message.If you care to reply,we can take it from there! Cheers.

P.P.S I have just sent a message to you.

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 6th of May 2019 07:22:49 PM

snap1946 wrote:

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so that means all landcruisers with a 300 kg tbw are all over weight . i hope i am wrong
cheers snap

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       Hi Gordon....with a 300kg tbw,they are probably OK if you are VERY careful with your loading of the car.The 1950kg rear axle is a trap for young players,who then spend thousands of dollars getting a GVM upgrade,which raises the rear axle rating to a miserable 2000kg.Overrated because people dont do their research,but not as bad as a Dodge Ram 1500 with its stupidly light 1770kg rear axle..and they reckon it can tow a 4500kg van....yeah,right.Truth be known,the 1500 cant tow more than 3000kg unless the trailer is a DOG trailer.Still theres  a fool born every minute.Cheers.

paulmartin wrote:

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Hi All, 

We are looking at doing the Grey Nomad thing in about 18 months and are doing the research on caravans, specifically what can we tow. Vehicle is a Diesel 2012 LC Sahara, the max towing weight is 3500kg, GCM is 6850kg. 
One van we looked at today has an ATM of 3500kg, which is right on the tow veh limit. My thought is it is to close for comfort. 

I know if I weigh it and it is under 3500kg and the towball weight is within limits, I should be legal, BUT if I have an accident, will the insurance company ask questions re weight, i.e. is the weight of the van assumed to be 3500kg even if it is only part loaded to an ATM of say 3200kg?

I appreciate this may have been asked before, but I am a newbie on this forum

Thanks, Paul 

---

Paul, I know this doesn't answer your question, but I just want to put another thought in your mind. Do you really want to be towing a three and a half tonne caravan around for a couple of years? Just because your tug can (or can't based on the current discussion?) tow this weight doesn't mean you have to get one that big. A lot of people look at the max their tug can tow and use that as a target weight for their choice of caravan. We took a different approach and started with a list of what were the essential 'must have' items in a caravan that we couldn't do without, then looked for the smallest and lightest van that had them. We ended up with a 16' van and 1600kgs. Our tug incidentally, has a towing capacity of 2.2T.

There's a lot to be said for smaller vans - apart from the obvious one of purchase cost, I use half the fuel the 'big' rigs use, the van fits under my carport at home, I can manoeuvre it around by hand if necessary, and it's a breeze to tow.

The compromise of course is space, and some people just don't want to do without all the home comforts, and fair enough - each to their own, but just wanted to point out there is an alternative. 

paulmartin wrote:

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Hi All,

Thanks for all the replies, they have certainly helped.
Mamil, I agree entirely. We had looked at vans we liked and they were around the 2.8 Tonne mark. We bought the LC with the intent of it being easier to tow, and give us a greater "Margin for error" if you like.
Yobarr, thanks for your input, much appreciated. Can I ask what a DOG trailer is? I have no intent of doing a GVM upgrade, plus when you talk about 350kg towball weight, is that 10% of 3500 ATM or the LC limit? Most of the vans we have looked at have around the 200 towball weight

Regards, Paul

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 Hi Paul....that 200kg towball weight is likely to be the weight it was at the factory.The towball weight is generally regarded as being around 10% of the ATM....no less. An LC200 cannot SAFELY tow anything above 3000kg ATM,so ball weight would be around 300kg.A Dog trailer has axles at each end,with the front axle (or axles) able to be steered,usually via a turntable.They usually are three or four axle and have very little towball weight,and this is how manufacturers get away with advertising their cars as having 3500kg towing capacity or,in the case of the Dodge Ram 1500, 4500kg towing capacity.Unless the trailer is a Dog trailer, where towball weight can be as little as 25kg,these cars have absolutely NO chance of towing the advertised weights.Huge trap for the uninitiated,but the manufacturers simply quote what I have written above.Caveat Emptor! Good luck with setting up your car and van,but dont even THINK about a van above 3000kg if safety is of any concern,not to mention the legalities when it all ends in tears.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 7th of May 2019 09:54:02 PM

Hi Paul,

The name 'dog' trailer is actually the official name for such trailers. There are also 'pig' trailers which are specialised ones made for a single purpose - such as carrying bob cats and such.

So when you see them on the highway you will know what to call them.

Murray

Hi 

So you caravanners are all "pigs" but not "dogs" !! (except Blues man, if his avatar is what he uses )

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-05.pdf

go to section 3 Trailers.

Jaahn

Long Weekend wrote:

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Hi Paul,The name 'dog' trailer is actually the official name for such trailers. There are also 'pig' trailers which are specialised ones made for a single purpose - such as carrying bob cats and such.So when you see them on the highway you will know what to call them.Murray

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 Hi Murray....just so theres no confusion for Paul,a Pig trailer is one where the axle(s) are at,or near,the centre of the load carrying surface,and part of its weight,usually about 10%,is carried by the towbar of the towing vehicle.Caravans usually are Pig trailers,with the few exceptions being 5th wheelers/semis and Dog trailers.Some Pig trailers,like the ones commonly used to cart pallets of bricks,can be 3 axle,and I have seen 4 axle ones.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 8th of May 2019 02:09:26 PM

Thanks Yobarr. I forgot about the axles on pig trailers. Of course, the other type of trailer is the common 'box' trailer.

In Melbourne I once took a glider trailer in for registration - single axle, narrow and about 8 metres long. When I first rang up to book it in the person stated "trailers in Victoria don't require registering!" Then when I arrived they didn't know what class it belonged to.

Murray

I tow a 3350ish KG van with a 200 series... as per below...  mostly just 2 people in the vehicle...  no WDH....  rear axle weight is about 1900kg...  front axle 1450 ish....  so can be done. Tows ok.... but not like the van "isn't there".  I'd definately factor in a GVM increase for the vehicle to allow for some extra load in the vehicle....  easy to end up around 3600kg. Like most things in life, I'd like 300mm or so more in it's wheel base.... but the 200 series is a compromise vehicle...  so 50% of the time its already to big.

My van has about a 210kg ball weight when unloaded...  but soon ends up around 300kg once loaded. 

As far as caravan payload goes...  600kg or so seems to be required for the larger vans for most people.

-- Edited by Noelpolar on Thursday 9th of May 2019 07:54:04 PM

paulmartin wrote:

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Hi All, 

We are looking at doing the Grey Nomad thing in about 18 months and are doing the research on caravans, specifically what can we tow. Vehicle is a Diesel 2012 LC Sahara, the max towing weight is 3500kg, GCM is 6850kg. 
One van we looked at today has an ATM of 3500kg, which is right on the tow veh limit. My thought is it is to close for comfort. 

I know if I weigh it and it is under 3500kg and the towball weight is within limits, I should be legal, BUT if I have an accident, will the insurance company ask questions re weight, i.e. is the weight of the van assumed to be 3500kg even if it is only part loaded to an ATM of say 3200kg?

I appreciate this may have been asked before, but I am a newbie on this forum

Thanks, Paul 

---

Yobarr has covered it pretty comprehensively.

A fully laden 200 series cannot safely or legally tow 3500kg without exceeding the GCM which is reduced to 6500kg because of other ratings.

3000kg is probably the ideal weight for a 200 series