During March and April 2019, the Electrical Licensing Committee held disciplinary hearings against four licence holders:
An electrical worker performed non-compliant electrical work without holding a contractors licence and left exposed live parts. The workers electrical work licence was immediately suspended until completion of a competency assessment. His external licence recognition provisions were suspended and he was disqualified from being a qualified technical person for an electrical contractor licence for two years and fined $4000.
An electrical worker attended a worksite outside of a planned shutdown of the main switchboard. While working on the energised switchboard his pliers slipped, resulting in an arc flash. He received serious burns to both hands and required skin graft surgery. His licence was suspended, deferred for six months to enable completion of competency training and to provide verification of competency in electrical risk assessment, electrical isolation, lockout/tagout and testing for dead and reenergisation following a safe system of work. He was fined $500.
An electrical contractor whose QTP installed a significant number of solar PV systems with serious defects, was directed to fix the defects at her own expense and fined $4000. The electrical work was so unsafe it required immediate disconnection until it could be rectified. The electrical contractor will need to engage an independent electrical contractor to inspect and verify the remedied work.
The electrical contractors licence was disqualified, with the disqualification deferred for 12 months, subject to remedying all identified defects and complying with the following conditions:
To be audited by a third-party auditor within a three, six and 12-month period to ensure adequate electrical safety systems and procedures are in place for the contractor licence.
The QBP must undertake and complete units of competency for the business aspects of performing electrical works for the contractor licence.
All QTPs must undertake and complete units of competency for the technical aspects of performing electrical work for the electrical contractor licence.
All new work performed for a period of six months, must be audited by an independent electrical contractor to ensure the work is electrically safe.
The QTP who performed the unsafe electrical work had his electrical work licence cancelled and was fined $4000. He was further disqualified from holding an electrical work licence and suspended from external licence recognition provisions for 10 years.
The committees actions were in addition to fines and notices already issued by the Electrical Safety Office.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 27th of May 2019 06:47:17 PM
Mike Harding said
07:16 AM May 28, 2019
So even when employing a Licenced Electrician one can still end up with an incompetent cowboy....
oldtrack123 said
11:40 AM May 28, 2019
Yes Mike, & that is the result of doing away with independent GOV inspectors It started to go downhill from the day they did away with them. & those caught now, are just the unlucky?? ones
Inspecting & testing your own work , Or testing & inspecting others' work for your employer, what a joke!!! My son was in that position for quite some time, the pressure put on him to sign off on unsatisfactory work[, by some junior management] was often quite heavy
Same thing with Gov machinery inspectors. & all the crane disasters we now have I would go as far as suggesting that the Dream World disaster was also the result of so called " independent" private inspectors
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 28th of May 2019 11:43:13 AM
T1 Terry said
01:50 PM May 28, 2019
That piece on the 7:30 report last night on the ABC about faulty roof top solar installations was hopefully an eye opener for anyone thinking about roof top solar and the companies that are doing it at the lowset price around. Ever noticed the one that advertises on TV with a bonus extra panels keep changing its name? Tier 1 and certification of accredited installers was exposed for what that really means, not the quality assurance you would think it meant .....
T1 Terry
Baz421 said
08:24 PM May 28, 2019
Mike Harding wrote:
So even when employing a Licenced Electrician one can still end up with an incompetent cowboy....
Yep mine in Darwin supposedly disconnected all wiring under elevated house ready for renos. I was stripping out old wire and saw a small spark (lucky dull cloudy day). Was live.
Baz421 said
08:26 PM May 28, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
That piece on the 7:30 report last night on the ABC about faulty roof top solar installations was hopefully an eye opener for anyone thinking about roof top solar and the companies that are doing it at the lowset price around. Ever noticed the one that advertises on TV with a bonus extra panels keep changing its name? Tier 1 and certification of accredited installers was exposed for what that really means, not the quality assurance you would think it meant .....
T1 Terry
My installers in Adelaide were a great team BUT the A grade sparky didn't trust anybody,,, he did all the checking 100% and told me his peers were not doing the check they were supposed to do. Go figure.
Warren-Pat_01 said
10:11 PM May 28, 2019
Hi Terry,
I watched that report very closely.
Yes I got caught by some of Rudd's shonks who did a runner when the Govt paid system fell in a heap. My 1.7Kw system was NOT CHEAP!
Four things saved my house - a neighbour down the road who smelt smoke & called the fire brigade, the original builders used hardwood battens, I was home (alone) & there was a ceiling vent below the smouldering flames.
My problem wasn't the isolator but mismatched connectors that let water in - according to the insurance company investigator.
From recollection the "inspector" was employed by the installer.
swamp said
09:20 AM May 29, 2019
Hi By comparison
When the unqualified guy does your car/caravan --brakes /exhaust /suspension /wheel alignment etc etc no body even gives a toss .
Even engine management and electrics ,plus air conditioning
Mechanics are taught all of this in trade school in depth yet there is no governing body worth anything ensuring a license. Mechanical industry is still full of cowboys and gunna`s . Totally unregulated.
If the road worthy was done in a different part of the state and not done correctly ,there is no discipline to the inspection station .
Have a long hard think
-- Edited by swamp on Wednesday 29th of May 2019 09:28:15 AM
oldtrack123 said
11:21 AM May 29, 2019
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Hi Terry, I watched that report very closely. Yes I got caught by some of Rudd's shonks who did a runner when the Govt paid system fell in a heap. My 1.7Kw system was NOT CHEAP!
Four things saved my house - a neighbour down the road who smelt smoke & called the fire brigade, the original builders used hardwood battens, I was home (alone) & there was a ceiling vent below the smouldering flames.
My problem wasn't the isolator but mismatched connectors that let water in - according to the insurance company investigator.
From recollection the "inspector" was employed by the installer.
The "inspector" being employed by the Contractor is the norm & a one man /owner electrical contractor inspects & tests his own work
.Really, apart from licensing as an electrician, there is no independent inspection
New installations require quite a bit of testing both physical & visual, plus paperwork
No examination or test other than being a licensed electrician to do testing!
Re the solar isolator , many of those had a mandatory recall due to fires .
T1 Terry said
02:22 PM May 30, 2019
swamp wrote:
Hi By comparison
When the unqualified guy does your car/caravan --brakes /exhaust /suspension /wheel alignment etc etc no body even gives a toss .
Even engine management and electrics ,plus air conditioning
Mechanics are taught all of this in trade school in depth yet there is no governing body worth anything ensuring a license. Mechanical industry is still full of cowboys and gunna`s . Totally unregulated.
If the road worthy was done in a different part of the state and not done correctly ,there is no discipline to the inspection station .
Have a long hard think
-- Edited by swamp on Wednesday 29th of May 2019 09:28:15 AM
What state are you talking about here? In NSW, they come down like a tonne of bricks on any reported unlicensed mechanic or unlicensed workshop. There is a branch of the Dept Fair Trading that goes into bat for the consumer if a complaint is lodged, they have inspectors that come out and go through everything like a does of salts and drag the workshop owner before a tribunal to answer for anything found wanting.
As far as the road worthy part, a swam of inspectors from the closest RMS inspection facility go through the last 12 mths of inspection done by any station that has even the most minor infringement picked up by an inspector any where in the state.
They really do go over the top when it comes to enforcing their standards, with 40 yrs experience in the trade I've seen and had some crazy things go against me so I'm talking from first hand experience.
T1 Terry
swamp said
11:48 AM May 31, 2019
hi Just open a work shop no big deal . Been in SA, NT, QLD minimal regulation. In Brisbane Purchased many a car with blown mufflers ,buggered ball joints ,oil leaks , leaking radiator illegal window tint with road worthy . Then transferred north . Go over pits and or local inspection that's what you find ALOT !!! Nothing was done by inspectors in Nth Qld Apparently ball joints wear out in a week
Bubbled window tint often cheap ripoff dealer fitted . Many many cars like this on the road . Try driving with back window tint like that.
The coppers don't pick it .
Another case was a Feroza
incorrect cooling setup Incorrect extractors hitting chassis front pads totally worn out on one side The list was endless 2-3 pages long Was repaired for free by inspection station in NTH QLD This business I would not work for him .
Yearly roadworthy needs to be compulsory in all states
-- Edited by swamp on Friday 31st of May 2019 11:50:44 AM
-- Edited by swamp on Friday 31st of May 2019 11:55:19 AM
oldtrack123 said
04:09 PM Jun 4, 2019
Just another to verify what is classed as licenced electrical work in Qld
Seems its tighter in NSW . Elect and mech repairs . Road worthy for example is every yearinspection !
T1 Terry said
12:13 PM Jun 5, 2019
Often wonder about the electrical licencing laws from state to state. In NZ, even though they have the same shared electrical standards, any one can do their own electrical work as long as it is inspected when completed by a licenced electrical inspector. Does this mean more people die due to electrical malpractice in NZ?
T1 Terry
jegog said
08:02 PM Jun 28, 2019
It is also the system of competencies which lead to this problem.
It is flawed as any tradesman who went through an old fashioned indentured apprenticeship will tell you.
Being taught by a tradesman who knows the dangers and repercussions is far superior to being led through a series of academic exercises in order to get a competency and once got not required to demonstrate any knowledge of it no matter how it impinges on other competencies.
They have dumbed down trades so they can employ semi-trained people at a lower wage than they would need to pay a fully trained tradesman.
oldtrack123 said
10:53 PM Jun 28, 2019
Hi Jegog
I reckon you are right on the mark. Very few modern electricians would have the range of skills that we oldies had.,and needed to have to pass each years exams over a 5year apprenticeship. Really seen some big changes since I started my electrical apprenticeship in 1944. Although there were training problems even in those days. One example was an old school mate I knew he was seeking an electrical apprenticeship but lost track of him before he got a job. Around 6 years later my employer took him on.
We were primarily industrial electricians [equipment maintenance, installations /equipment repairs, Rewinds]. It soon became obvious that he was hopeless in those fields, yet his cert said "licenced electrical fitter & mechanic." All he had ever worked on was electrical appliance repairs.
T1 Terry said
02:38 PM Jun 29, 2019
I believe there is also a loop hole where someone can be listed as working with a licenced tradesman who holds a commercial licence, than after 5 yrs can apply for a RPL (recognition of prior learning) pas a basic exam and gain a licence themselves. They don't actually have to have worked side by side with the tradesman, they just need him to say they have and he has checked all their work. The exam is fairly easy I believe, then this probably completely hands on unskilled person becomes a tradesman.
Is it called a Journeyman's ticket or something like that?
T1 Terry
oldtrack123 said
03:03 PM Jun 29, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
I believe there is also a loop hole where someone can be listed as working with a licenced tradesman who holds a commercial licence, than after 5 yrs can apply for a RPL (recognition of prior learning) pas a basic exam and gain a licence themselves. They don't actually have to have worked side by side with the tradesman, they just need him to say they have and he has checked all their work. The exam is fairly easy I believe, then this probably completely hands on unskilled person becomes a tradesman. Is it called a Journeyman's ticket or something like that?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry , Not sure what you mean by a "commercial license" perhaps it is the same as a licensed electrical contractor??
Certainly not aware of any such arrangement in Queensland. But there are provision for adults to enter the trade, without going through an actual apprenticeship. that has been available for a looong time . Many post war WW2 army, navy etc, electricians followed that path .we had 3, one turned out very good, one fair, & the other hopeless, They did have to [proove their competency to the employer's satisfaction, based on reports from the electrical foreman. The actual exam was heavily based on knowing the Standards plus a practical test.
T1 Terry said
04:55 PM Jun 29, 2019
Yes, sorry Peter, a contractors licence was what I meant. There is a mob advertising that they can get you through the RPL parts and catch up what bits you are not making the grade on to get you one of these type of licences.
If someone was to get their licence this way, could they then apply for a contractors licence?
T1 Terry
oldtrack123 said
09:07 PM Jun 29, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
Yes, sorry Peter, a contractors licence was what I meant. There is a mob advertising that they can get you through the RPL parts and catch up what bits you are not making the grade on to get you one of these type of licences. If someone was to get their licence this way, could they then apply for a contractors licence?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry
I do not know the current situation, but yes, One of those I mentioned went on to be a licensed electrical contractor [thankfully the good one]
T1 Terry said
11:51 AM Jun 30, 2019
The bit that worries me there is the self employed electrical contractor, who maybe cheated a bit getting his licence via this method, doesn't have a boss watching over their shoulder making sure they actually do know what they are doing. Now there is only self inspection as far as work quality, no one who actually knows all the bit regarding total safety is inspecting their work. They may feel they have complied with all the regulations, but if you don't know something you don't know you've made an error.
This has always been my concern regarding the pass mark required for any exam, a 75% pass mark means the participant didn't get 25% of the questions correct .... do they really only know 3/4 of what they should know?
T1 Terry
oldtrack123 said
12:16 PM Jun 30, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
The bit that worries me there is the self employed electrical contractor, who maybe cheated a bit getting his licence via this method, doesn't have a boss watching over their shoulder making sure they actually do know what they are doing. Now there is only self inspection as far as work quality, no one who actually knows all the bit regarding total safety is inspecting their work. They may feel they have complied with all the regulations, but if you don't know something you don't know you've made an error. This has always been my concern regarding the pass mark required for any exam, a 75% pass mark means the participant didn't get 25% of the questions correct .... do they really only know 3/4 of what they should know?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry.
This is one of those rare occasions that I totally agree with you
But often the boss is the worst culprit
Son was a stickler for the rules & when[ working for a small contractor he checked/tested finished installs & found a few things noncompliant, the first comment from the owners[ two licensed electricians] was' 'Do we really a have to do that??'' His reply, if you don't ", I will not be putting my name on the test forms".
Yet, His last employer, where he worked for the last 15 years, a large electrical contracting firm doing work for Gov depts[ railways, schools, Airports etc & high rise buildings, factories, never put any pressure on him to pass unsatisfactory or noncompliant work, and he found plenty!!
Many of those could have led to dire consequences
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 30th of June 2019 12:27:11 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 27th of May 2019 06:47:17 PM
So even when employing a Licenced Electrician one can still end up with an incompetent cowboy....
Yes Mike,
& that is the result of doing away with independent GOV inspectors
It started to go downhill from the day they did away with them. & those caught now, are just the unlucky?? ones
Inspecting & testing your own work ,
Or testing & inspecting others' work for your employer, what a joke!!!
My son was in that position for quite some time, the pressure put on him to sign off on unsatisfactory work[, by some junior management] was often quite heavy
Same thing with Gov machinery inspectors. & all the crane disasters we now have
I would go as far as suggesting that the Dream World disaster was also the result of so called " independent" private inspectors
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 28th of May 2019 11:43:13 AM
T1 Terry
Yep mine in Darwin supposedly disconnected all wiring under elevated house ready for renos. I was stripping out old wire and saw a small spark (lucky dull cloudy day). Was live.
My installers in Adelaide were a great team BUT the A grade sparky didn't trust anybody,,, he did all the checking 100% and told me his peers were not doing the check they were supposed to do. Go figure.
I watched that report very closely.
Yes I got caught by some of Rudd's shonks who did a runner when the Govt paid system fell in a heap. My 1.7Kw system was NOT CHEAP!
Four things saved my house - a neighbour down the road who smelt smoke & called the fire brigade, the original builders used hardwood battens, I was home (alone) & there was a ceiling vent below the smouldering flames.
My problem wasn't the isolator but mismatched connectors that let water in - according to the insurance company investigator.
From recollection the "inspector" was employed by the installer.
Hi
By comparison
When the unqualified guy does your car/caravan --brakes /exhaust /suspension /wheel alignment etc etc no body even gives a toss .
Even engine management and electrics ,plus air conditioning
Mechanics are taught all of this in trade school in depth yet there is no governing body worth anything ensuring a license. Mechanical industry is still full of cowboys and gunna`s . Totally unregulated.
If the road worthy was done in a different part of the state and not done correctly ,there is no discipline to the inspection station .
Have a long hard think
-- Edited by swamp on Wednesday 29th of May 2019 09:28:15 AM
The "inspector" being employed by the Contractor is the norm & a one man /owner electrical contractor inspects & tests his own work
.Really, apart from licensing as an electrician, there is no independent inspection
New installations require quite a bit of testing both physical & visual, plus paperwork
No examination or test other than being a licensed electrician to do testing!
Re the solar isolator , many of those had a mandatory recall due to fires .
What state are you talking about here? In NSW, they come down like a tonne of bricks on any reported unlicensed mechanic or unlicensed workshop. There is a branch of the Dept Fair Trading that goes into bat for the consumer if a complaint is lodged, they have inspectors that come out and go through everything like a does of salts and drag the workshop owner before a tribunal to answer for anything found wanting.
As far as the road worthy part, a swam of inspectors from the closest RMS inspection facility go through the last 12 mths of inspection done by any station that has even the most minor infringement picked up by an inspector any where in the state.
They really do go over the top when it comes to enforcing their standards, with 40 yrs experience in the trade I've seen and had some crazy things go against me so I'm talking from first hand experience.
T1 Terry
hi
Just open a work shop no big deal . Been in SA, NT, QLD minimal regulation.
In Brisbane
Purchased many a car with blown mufflers ,buggered ball joints ,oil leaks , leaking radiator illegal window tint with road worthy . Then transferred north . Go over pits and or local inspection that's what you find ALOT !!!
Nothing was done by inspectors in Nth Qld Apparently ball joints wear out in a week
Bubbled window tint often cheap ripoff dealer fitted . Many many cars like this on the road . Try driving with back window tint like that.
The coppers don't pick it .
Another case was a Feroza
incorrect cooling setup
Incorrect extractors hitting chassis
front pads totally worn out on one side
The list was endless 2-3 pages long
Was repaired for free by inspection station in NTH QLD
This business I would not work for him .
Yearly roadworthy needs to be compulsory in all states
-- Edited by swamp on Friday 31st of May 2019 11:50:44 AM
-- Edited by swamp on Friday 31st of May 2019 11:55:19 AM
www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/injury-prevention-safety/electricity/homeowners-and-consumers/dontdiy
T1 Terry
It is flawed as any tradesman who went through an old fashioned indentured apprenticeship will tell you.
Being taught by a tradesman who knows the dangers and repercussions is far superior to being led through a series of academic exercises in order to get a competency and once got not required to demonstrate any knowledge of it no matter how it impinges on other competencies.
They have dumbed down trades so they can employ semi-trained people at a lower wage than they would need to pay a fully trained tradesman.
I reckon you are right on the mark. Very few modern electricians would have the range of skills that we oldies had.,and needed to have to pass each years exams over a 5year apprenticeship. Really seen some big changes since I started my electrical apprenticeship in 1944. Although there were training problems even in those days. One example was an old school mate I knew he was seeking an electrical apprenticeship but lost track of him before he got a job. Around 6 years later my employer took him on.
We were primarily industrial electricians [equipment maintenance, installations /equipment repairs, Rewinds]. It soon became obvious that he was hopeless in those fields, yet his cert said "licenced electrical fitter & mechanic." All he had ever worked on was electrical appliance repairs.
Is it called a Journeyman's ticket or something like that?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry , Not sure what you mean by a "commercial license" perhaps it is the same as a licensed electrical contractor??
Certainly not aware of any such arrangement in Queensland. But there are provision for adults to enter the trade, without going through an actual apprenticeship. that has been available for a looong time . Many post war WW2 army, navy etc, electricians followed that path .we had 3, one turned out very good, one fair, & the other hopeless, They did have to [proove their competency to the employer's satisfaction, based on reports from the electrical foreman. The actual exam was heavily based on knowing the Standards plus a practical test.
If someone was to get their licence this way, could they then apply for a contractors licence?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry
I do not know the current situation, but yes, One of those I mentioned went on to be a licensed electrical contractor [thankfully the good one]
This has always been my concern regarding the pass mark required for any exam, a 75% pass mark means the participant didn't get 25% of the questions correct .... do they really only know 3/4 of what they should know?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry.
This is one of those rare occasions that I totally agree with you
But often the boss is the worst culprit
Son was a stickler for the rules & when[ working for a small contractor he checked/tested finished installs & found a few things noncompliant, the first comment from the owners[ two licensed electricians] was' 'Do we really a have to do that??'' His reply, if you don't ", I will not be putting my name on the test forms".
Yet, His last employer, where he worked for the last 15 years, a large electrical contracting firm doing work for Gov depts[ railways, schools, Airports etc & high rise buildings, factories, never put any pressure on him to pass unsatisfactory or noncompliant work, and he found plenty!!
Many of those could have led to dire consequences
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 30th of June 2019 12:27:11 PM