My mate says if he switches the parking lights on (cant remember the new vehicle but can find out) it causes the Smart Alternator to act as a old technology alternator and put out higher voltage on a constant basis.
Anybody come across this on their vehicles? If it works it could avoid the cost of add on tech for the caravan battery at the cost of a few burned out bulbs.
Another thought, it used to be common on boats for people to put a bigger alternator on with a smart external regulator that outputted something like 14.8v for a period and then switched down to around 14.2 for fast charging large AGM batteries discharged by electric fridges.
The smart regulator had a pair of contacts for a auxiiary switch to manually set the regulator for a constant 13.8V. Could something like this be retrofitted to a vehicle and eliminate the smart charger setup?
Third thought, can the smart alternator be converted back to a common alternator with a fixed voltage output current limited by the alternator construction?
-- Edited by Teddy326 on Wednesday 10th of July 2019 07:41:54 PM
Whenarewethere said
07:09 PM Jul 10, 2019
I can't comment on things things like opening the bonnet 7 times at 3:33am.
I bought a Victron DC-DC converter. It turned out one wasn't enough so got a second one, you can run as many as you want in parallel & set them to the exact voltage you want. I know it works.
The two of them at the bottom of the photo stacked in front of each other.
The Ranger has a so called Smart alternator and is known to cause issues when hooking something like a van up behind with a heavy current draw.
I found out about this after my battery collapsed on a less than 2 year old vehicle and the NMRA bloke that got me going and sold me a new battery told me it's a regular occurrence on Rangers towing vans but that Ford can turn it off in the programming software which turns it into a standard alternator. No more issues since I have done that and Ford acknowledged that if towing a van it was best to turn off the smart charge. I am not sure why some Muppet thinks things like this are a good idea, but they need to really examine everything they think about against the KISS principle.
dabbler said
08:34 PM Jul 10, 2019
There is nothing wrong with smart alternators and they are not.exactly a new unknown entity. They serve their purpose well even for the tiny percentage that tow.(as long as you use the appropriate equipment). There are several work-around solutions if you use older tech too. In the long run, most people change tow vehicle more often than their van so why not use the appropriate gear for your van ? I'm not sure if the OP's advice works or not, but as more vehicles incorporate LED parkers, I'd suggest it's a short-lived solution.
Jaahn said
09:12 PM Jul 10, 2019
Hi Teddy
I believe you need to turn on more than the parking lights. On my car it will charge normally with the headlights on. It does sense the current draw to decide on the charging regime. Not sure about any other brands workings.
Jaahn
iana said
10:13 AM Jul 11, 2019
I have an auxiliary battery fitted and charged via a DC-DC charger. All of my, what I call dirty electrics come off the aux. including the tow vehicle ind. park and stop lights. I can tow anything or draw off what I like and it does not effect the vehicle battery, which is all left standard. It also means the vehicle battery won't be flattened by leaving the van hooked up. Haven't had a problem. The vehicle computer is also happy.
T1 Terry said
10:38 AM Jul 11, 2019
The clever regulator also has a temp sensor attached to the alternator to reduce the load if it senses over heating. The really good ones also have a sense for belt slip and determine the max load the alternator drive belt can handle with minimum slip. These things aren't cheap and adjust the alternator output voltage by sensing the charging voltage at the destination battery. This means the start battery could be pushed up around the 15vdc plus mark to achieve a 14.4v across the house battery and this would be fatal from not only the start battery but a lot of the vehicle electrical and electronic equipment. To get around that, a second alternator would need to be fitted, dedicated to charging the house battery and any auxiliary batteries. A DC to DC charger and adequate wiring is a lot cheaper and will do the job required, so why go to all that trouble?
T1 Terry
patrol03 said
03:01 PM Jul 11, 2019
Most alternators are temperature compensating Terry. When designing a system for charging an extra battery, one would certainly use a Voltage Sensitive Regulator which would protect the start battery and provide more than adequate charge for house batteries. " Smart alternators" is a mis noma as the alternator on modern vehicles is controlled by the ECU which in most cases can be disconnected from the alternator and will put out the normal charge of about 14.6 V. The disconnection can be carried out by your auto elec or alternatively if in the example of Ford and Mazda,it can be turned off by your service provider. If done correctly no errors will show on the dash. Certainly a much cheaper option than a DC/DC charger and the start battery will be kept FULLY charged as a bonus.
Hewy54 said
03:12 PM Jul 11, 2019
patrol03 wrote:
Most alternators are temperature compensating Terry. When designing a system for charging an extra battery, one would certainly use a Voltage Sensitive Regulator which would protect the start battery and provide more than adequate charge for house batteries. " Smart alternators" is a mis noma as the alternator on modern vehicles is controlled by the ECU which in most cases can be disconnected from the alternator and will put out the normal charge of about 14.6 V. The disconnection can be carried out by your auto elec or alternatively if in the example of Ford and Mazda,it can be turned off by your service provider. If done correctly no errors will show on the dash. Certainly a much cheaper option than a DC/DC charger and the start battery will be kept FULLY charged as a bonus.
No need to turn it off for the mazda (BT50) as they do not have a smart alternator.
DeBe said
11:03 PM Jul 12, 2019
Duno about the Mazda but the Ford Ranger does have a smart altenator. Its actualy controled by the engine ECU & Ford dealers can acess the ECU & disable it to a fixed charge voltage.
Teddy326 said
11:06 AM Jul 31, 2019
Thanks for all the answers. Most interesting and useful.
Presumably the DC to DC upconverter unit in the Caravan will cause the ECU in the car to sense enough load for it to "turn up" the alternator to about 14.
It would be very interesting to know what the minimum "non engine" electrical load on the system that is needed to trigger the ECU to turn up the alternator voltage.
Jaahn said
07:55 PM Aug 1, 2019
Teddy326 wrote:
Thanks for all the answers. Most interesting and useful.
Presumably the DC to DC upconverter unit in the Caravan will cause the ECU in the car to sense enough load for it to "turn up" the alternator to about 14.
It would be very interesting to know what the minimum "non engine" electrical load on the system that is needed to trigger the ECU to turn up the alternator voltage.
Hi Teddy
Just a couple of comments. I an no expert on this ! Not all manufacturers do it the same way so do not presume too much. Ask specific question about your vehicle.
It has been said for some vehicles that you must have the negative connection for any extra load, including dc-dc chargers, connected to the body earth not the battery terminal. The reason for this is the earth connection between the battery to the body is used to sense the current needed so the extra load must go through the sensor or it will not turn up the voltage.. I do not know if this is for all brands and models.
Do some research and do not rely on auto electricians to get it right. They may not be up to date on every vehicle type.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Thursday 1st of August 2019 07:59:10 PM
Teddy326 said
08:39 PM Aug 2, 2019
Thanks for the heads up about "advice". Found this diagram on the caravanners.com. Explains why there is "advice" about where to connect your negative.
Points 2 and 3 and 4 are other "advice" I found.
1. The sense module for the smart alternator can be connected between the battery neg and the chassis.
2. Also someone noted that some ECU have a sense wire which presumably signals a positive to the ECU when the lights are switched on.
3. I bought a cheap OBD box which enabled me to switch off warning lights with a Android phone via bluetooth(battery partially died on a cold morning). Correspondent is suggesting that similar OBD box can be used to reset Alternator on some ECU.
4. I notice on the Enerdrive site that they provide plenty of "advice" about cable connections. When you only have 12V or 13V its easy to lose a few volts when the cables are too small and the connections poorly done. High power (use a lot of current) devices will cause the volts to be lost and then the device fails in some way.
-- Edited by Teddy326 on Friday 2nd of August 2019 08:45:16 PM
My mate says if he switches the parking lights on (cant remember the new vehicle but can find out) it causes the Smart Alternator to act as a old technology alternator and put out higher voltage on a constant basis.
Anybody come across this on their vehicles? If it works it could avoid the cost of add on tech for the caravan battery at the cost of a few burned out bulbs.
Another thought, it used to be common on boats for people to put a bigger alternator on with a smart external regulator that outputted something like 14.8v for a period and then switched down to around 14.2 for fast charging large AGM batteries discharged by electric fridges.
The smart regulator had a pair of contacts for a auxiiary switch to manually set the regulator for a constant 13.8V. Could something like this be retrofitted to a vehicle and eliminate the smart charger setup?
Third thought, can the smart alternator be converted back to a common alternator with a fixed voltage output current limited by the alternator construction?
-- Edited by Teddy326 on Wednesday 10th of July 2019 07:41:54 PM
I can't comment on things things like opening the bonnet 7 times at 3:33am.
I bought a Victron DC-DC converter. It turned out one wasn't enough so got a second one, you can run as many as you want in parallel & set them to the exact voltage you want. I know it works.
The two of them at the bottom of the photo stacked in front of each other.
Hi Teddy
I believe you need to turn on more than the parking lights. On my car it will charge normally with the headlights on.
It does sense the current draw to decide on the charging regime. Not sure about any other brands workings.
Jaahn
I have an auxiliary battery fitted and charged via a DC-DC charger. All of my, what I call dirty electrics come off the aux. including the tow vehicle ind. park and stop lights. I can tow anything or draw off what I like and it does not effect the vehicle battery, which is all left standard. It also means the vehicle battery won't be flattened by leaving the van hooked up. Haven't had a problem. The vehicle computer is also happy.
The clever regulator also has a temp sensor attached to the alternator to reduce the load if it senses over heating. The really good ones also have a sense for belt slip and determine the max load the alternator drive belt can handle with minimum slip. These things aren't cheap and adjust the alternator output voltage by sensing the charging voltage at the destination battery. This means the start battery could be pushed up around the 15vdc plus mark to achieve a 14.4v across the house battery and this would be fatal from not only the start battery but a lot of the vehicle electrical and electronic equipment. To get around that, a second alternator would need to be fitted, dedicated to charging the house battery and any auxiliary batteries. A DC to DC charger and adequate wiring is a lot cheaper and will do the job required, so why go to all that trouble?
T1 Terry
Most alternators are temperature compensating Terry. When designing a system for charging an extra battery, one would certainly use a Voltage Sensitive Regulator which would protect the start battery and provide more than adequate charge for house batteries. " Smart alternators" is a mis noma as the alternator on modern vehicles is controlled by the ECU which in most cases can be disconnected from the alternator and will put out the normal charge of about 14.6 V. The disconnection can be carried out by your auto elec or alternatively if in the example of Ford and Mazda,it can be turned off by your service provider. If done correctly no errors will show on the dash. Certainly a much cheaper option than a DC/DC charger and the start battery will be kept FULLY charged as a bonus.
No need to turn it off for the mazda (BT50) as they do not have a smart alternator.
Duno about the Mazda but the Ford Ranger does have a smart altenator. Its actualy controled by the engine ECU & Ford dealers can acess the ECU & disable it to a fixed charge voltage.
Thanks for all the answers. Most interesting and useful.
Presumably the DC to DC upconverter unit in the Caravan will cause the ECU in the car to sense enough load for it to "turn up" the alternator to about 14.
It would be very interesting to know what the minimum "non engine" electrical load on the system that is needed to trigger the ECU to turn up the alternator voltage.
Hi Teddy
Just a couple of comments. I an no expert on this ! Not all manufacturers do it the same way so do not presume too much. Ask specific question about your vehicle.
It has been said for some vehicles that you must have the negative connection for any extra load, including dc-dc chargers, connected to the body earth not the battery terminal. The reason for this is the earth connection between the battery to the body is used to sense the current needed so the extra load must go through the sensor or it will not turn up the voltage.. I do not know if this is for all brands and models.
Do some research and do not rely on auto electricians to get it right. They may not be up to date on every vehicle type.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Thursday 1st of August 2019 07:59:10 PM
Points 2 and 3 and 4 are other "advice" I found.
1. The sense module for the smart alternator can be connected between the battery neg and the chassis.
2. Also someone noted that some ECU have a sense wire which presumably signals a positive to the ECU when the lights are switched on.
3. I bought a cheap OBD box which enabled me to switch off warning lights with a Android phone via bluetooth(battery partially died on a cold morning). Correspondent is suggesting that similar OBD box can be used to reset Alternator on some ECU.
4. I notice on the Enerdrive site that they provide plenty of "advice" about cable connections. When you only have 12V or 13V its easy to lose a few volts when the cables are too small and the connections poorly done. High power (use a lot of current) devices will cause the volts to be lost and then the device fails in some way.
-- Edited by Teddy326 on Friday 2nd of August 2019 08:45:16 PM