I have read so much about Lithium batteries that my head is now in a spin.I would like some simple answers to my questions please, no high tech stuff. My van is a 2015 van with a 120amp AGM battery with solar panel (with regulator), the ability to add an external solar panel (with regulator)and I guess a 240V to 12V battery charger as well. I would like to change to Lithium if possible. I have read that the better Lithium batteries have their own cell management systems. So my questions are as follows based on if I buy one of those types of batteries.
1. Can I just connect the battery and do nothing to any of the charging systems, as the Lithium BMS will protect the lithium cells?
2. If I do the above (1) what would be the negatives of doing so and would doing that damage my lithium battery?
If I cannot would a solution be to
3. Put a DC to DC charger with a lithium charging map between the current charging system wires to the battery, rather than try to rip apart boxes etc that already hold the charging modules and replace them with lithium charging type chargers or regulators. Ie I am thinking it would be cheaper to buy a Redarc 40amp dc/dc charger (about $400) connect its input wires to the current 12V solar wires and 12V charging wire from the 240V source, rather than get some auto electrician to put in a new internal solar regulator and new 240V charger to accept the lithium charging regime.
Thanks Walter
T1 Terry said
12:59 PM Aug 24, 2019
Read through this thread thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65713167/advice-new-agm-battery/ and you can get an idea of what can happen if the person telling you "everything will be fine" does really have a clue when it comes to lithium batteries.
There are more and more reports of drop in lithium battery failures surfacing, simply staying with lead acid batteries (AGM is just a type of lead acid battery) or even worse, going back to AGM batteries, is not the way to go. You need to know that the person who is designing the system that supports and protects the lithium battery that suits your needs, actually knows what they are doing. Just throwing money into it won't necessarily sort the problem either. We've had a few through the workshop now that have thrown thousands of $$ into the same hole they threw their hard earned $$ when the bought the drop in batteries in the first place. Advice about replacing this or that, all from auto electricians, but without understanding the real problem their fix was not going to solve the problem. We did get them back on the road and have received thank you emails after 6 mths or more saying that at last they can travel without worrying if the battery will fail over night.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
01:06 PM Aug 24, 2019
A Google search of "Failed lithium caravan batteries will turn up some stuff that goes back a very long way, right up to the present day.
T1 Terry
jegog said
10:48 PM Aug 24, 2019
If I was considering installing a lithium battery I would also install a compatible BMS(Battery Management System). Then any existing battery I would investigate connecting it as a charging source for the lithium battery.
Solar cells charge existing battery which charges the lithium battery.
I doubt that you could get a BMS which could manage different cell chemistries at the same time.
This Wikipedia link to BMS explains how a BMS works.
I was surprised to read that the RAN specified lead acid batteries for the new (if ever designed and constructed) French nuclear submarines converted to conventional diesel-electric propulsion system.
But would Lithium ion be safe underwater where a bump or depth charge blast might set them off bursting into flame?
Jaahn said
09:17 AM Aug 25, 2019
Hi Walter
I will give my opinion but I am not expert on lithium battery systems. Battery systems in caravans can be really basic and work only on the lowest cost principle. They may in a small system like yours struggle to do the job required if the owner knows little about using them. Used correctly and wisely within their capabilities they can work well. But overused and misunderstood as to their capacity they just kill batteries and cause grief !
So my first question is why do you want lithium batteries??? Does your current battery NOT DO what you want. In what way ?
As a caravan battery system is usually a collection of means of charging just thrown together they are often not too good anyway for the AGM battery but can work. Expecting to somehow adapt that to a different type with different voltages and end points seem to be silly and unlikely to provide a good result.
"A BMS may protect its battery by preventing it from operating outside itssafe operating area" is a statement from that reference, but it shows that it does nothing to properly charge the battery in the normal operating area. So if you wish to invest in an expensive battery then set it up correctly or pay the price ! IMHO
Jaahn
PS Knight possibly the OP may not think a submarine discussion is not very helpfull
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 25th of August 2019 09:19:19 AM
oldtrack123 said
05:05 PM Aug 25, 2019
Jaahn wrote:
Knight possibly the OP may not think a submarine discussion is not very helpfull
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 25th of August 2019 09:19:19 AM
But it is an interesting question,
Why are they not going with lithiums?
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 25th of August 2019 05:09:57 PM
Knight said
05:34 PM Aug 25, 2019
I had no idea that a post about lithium ion batteries on a post about lithium ion batteries was offensive.
LOL
HandyWalter said
06:24 PM Aug 25, 2019
I am thankful for all the comments, but I am still none the wiser. The reason I am considering Lithium is that when I travel and free camp, my current battery does not cover more than 1.5 days without some external charging. It might be the battery is old etc, but as I need to replace it I just wondered if it would be better to go lithium and then I would possibly solve all my problems of running out of power if the weather is inclement for more than 2 days. I still think perhaps option 3 is feasable and probably the cheapest "fix" to make sure the battery gets the proper charge regime. Of course I could go the bigger AGM or 2 AGM batteries way but I thought it might be better to see if lithium would also solve the problem both long term and at a reasonable cost. So far I am still in the dark, as I cannot seem to find definitive answers to my original 3 questions.
Thanks Walter
Jaahn said
06:25 PM Aug 25, 2019
Knight wrote:
I had no idea that a post about lithium ion batteries on a post about lithium ion batteries was offensive.
LOL
Hi Knight
It is not offensive just irrelevant to this discussion. The OP asked some specific questions and did say this " I would like some simple answers to my questions please, no high tech stuff."
So where do submarines fit into an answer for him ??
My simple answer is just start a new thread. There is no charge for starting a thread and people might find it interesting too. I would.
Jaahn
Jaahn said
06:36 PM Aug 25, 2019
HandyWalter wrote:
I am thankful for all the comments, but I am still none the wiser. The reason I am considering Lithium is that when I travel and free camp, my current battery does not cover more than 1.5 days without some external charging. It might be the battery is old etc, but as I need to replace it I just wondered if it would be better to go lithium and then I would possibly solve all my problems of running out of power if the weather is inclement for more than 2 days. I still think perhaps option 3 is feasable and probably the cheapest "fix" to make sure the battery gets the proper charge regime. Of course I could go the bigger AGM or 2 AGM batteries way but I thought it might be better to see if lithium would also solve the problem both long term and at a reasonable cost. So far I am still in the dark, as I cannot seem to find definitive answers to my original 3 questions. Thanks Walter
Hi Walter
You have not said how much solar you have. I suspect that is the first problem. If you have enough solar you can use it during the day and also charge the battery.
Second problem could be you are using more power than you have stored in the battery anyway and if you have lithium of similar capacity it also will need charging too.
To say more we would need to know what you use and how long and what you expect to be able to do. I have a small system like yours and can stay as long as we want if it is sunny and we look at the meter to see what is happening to the battery.
There is no simple, one size fits all answer to all questions
Jaahn
Knight said
08:24 AM Aug 26, 2019
Jahan
What is your position here that you believe provides you with a licence to criticise others?
Very clearly to most readers here my reply was about Lithium ion batteries. Obviously, the fact that the RAN chooses Lead Acid batteries is noteworthy, after all if Lithium ion was considered to be superior the RAN would not have decided on old design or well proven design Lead Acid technology.
My concern about Lithium ion batteries is the danger of explosion into a very hot fire that cannot be extinguished with normal fire fighting equipment and requires firstly a large quantity of water to cool the Lithium ion batteries down before fire can be dealt with and they have been experienced re-igniting even a day or two after apparently being extinguished. As I have posted about here before.
Months ago a mother in the ACT left a Lithium ion battery pack used for starting a vehicle with a discharged battery and other uses such as recharging a mobile phone, it was a hot day and just as she got behind the steering wheel after strapping her children into their car seats the battery exploded into flames, no warming apart from a short sizzling sound. The vehicle was written off.
Lithium ion batteries can become unstable when exposed to heat or because of a heavy impact, like an electric vehicle smashing into a tree or grounding on a speed bump.
The RAN are of course concerned about health and safety of crews, and lives, and chose not to specify Lithium ion batteries.
I trust that you will not attempt to criticise this post.
And I refer to your lectures on other posts as the self appointed board censor.
-- Edited by Knight on Monday 26th of August 2019 08:25:41 AM
Grandad5 said
08:49 AM Aug 26, 2019
A discussion on Lithium ion is not relevant for caravans which when powered by lithium effectively use 100% LifPo4 which do not explode under any circumstances. They can die, but not explode.
A separate thread on the dangers of lithium ion would indeed be interesting and possibly helpful since most of us own at least one.
Jim
HandyWalter said
09:51 AM Aug 26, 2019
Jaahn, I must say again, the status of what I have solar, battery, etc is not important to the questions I am just seeking answers to those 3 questions. More solar or more batteries would be an option, but the extra weight of each of these, and the possible unreliability of sun then requiring a generator (ie more weight again). Hence my original 3 questions. It seems to me that my questions are unanswerable on this forum and I can accept that. I have tried to read widely but still cannot sort the chaff from the wheat so to speak. I do not want to spend mega bucks for the conversion, and that was all I am after. A possible simple solution to a power question using the latest technology in battery systems.
Jaahn said
12:23 PM Aug 26, 2019
Hi Walter
I do not think I can help you with any more answers. The people who could say have wisely, in my opinion, declined to answer so far.
Ask Knight he seems to want to contribute to your thread
I do not wish to be the censor for any thread but obviously the forum does not have any effective moderation to help it 'get along" IMHO. Hence this conversation
Cheers jaahn
Knight said
01:34 PM Aug 26, 2019
So let me understand your complaint Jaan, I posted about Lithium ion batteries and that the RAN had rejected them for submarines, isn't that fact relevant to questions about Lithium ion batteries?
When I read posts that I consider to be irrelevant I move on, I suggest you adopt the same approach. I would also not embarrass myself by commenting as you have done.
T1 Terry said
07:07 PM Aug 26, 2019
HandyWalter wrote:
I am thankful for all the comments, but I am still none the wiser. The reason I am considering Lithium is that when I travel and free camp, my current battery does not cover more than 1.5 days without some external charging. It might be the battery is old etc, but as I need to replace it I just wondered if it would be better to go lithium and then I would possibly solve all my problems of running out of power if the weather is inclement for more than 2 days. I still think perhaps option 3 is feasable and probably the cheapest "fix" to make sure the battery gets the proper charge regime. Of course I could go the bigger AGM or 2 AGM batteries way but I thought it might be better to see if lithium would also solve the problem both long term and at a reasonable cost. So far I am still in the dark, as I cannot seem to find definitive answers to my original 3 questions.
So my questions are as follows based on if I buy one of those types of batteries.
1. Can I just connect the battery and do nothing to any of the charging systems, as the Lithium BMS will protect the lithium cells?
2. If I do the above (1) what would be the negatives of doing so and would doing that damage my lithium battery?
If I cannot would a solution be to
3. Put a DC to DC charger with a lithium charging map between the current charging system wires to the battery, rather than try to rip apart boxes etc that already hold the charging modules and replace them with lithium charging type chargers or regulators. Ie I am thinking it would be cheaper to buy a Redarc 40amp dc/dc charger (about $400) connect its input wires to the current 12V solar wires and 12V charging wire from the 240V source, rather than get some auto electrician to put in a new internal solar regulator and new 240V charger to accept the lithium charging regime.
Thanks Walter
I'd love to answer the questions without being vague, but as soon as I try I get attacked for using the forum as a sales platform.
An answer to Question 1:
The quality of the internal BMS determines if directly connecting what you have to the replacement lithium battery. If the BMS is not really up to the task, the cells will be damaged and eventually destroyed. This sort of answers question 2 as well. Price generally reflects quality, you can't expect to buy a quality lithium battery with a quality BMS that will adapt the charging systems you have so they properly charge the cells without damaging them for less than $1,000 per 100Ah @ 12v.
Cutting corners makes the battery build cheaper:
1) falsely quoting the capacity by using ridiculously low discharge rates till the cells are dragged down to a voltage likely to damage them makes the components cheaper to source
2) a BMS that simply reads battery voltage rather than cell voltage and simply opens a relay if the voltage goes above or below that point is far cheaper than a BMS that controls the charging units you already have so they don't damage the cells by monitoring the actual cell voltages rather than just the terminal voltage.
3) using misleading statements like "the batteries can be paralleled" to suggest that the max discharge limit adds together for each extra battery in parallel e.g. 50amps max discharge rate, the purchaser is left to assume that each additional battery will increase the max discharge by another 50 amps. This is not stated any where on their advertising or specifications, that is because there is no system in each battery to limit the maximum discharge to 50 amps. This means 1 battery or 5 batteries paralleled together can still only deliver 50 amps without voiding the warranty, the capacity might add together hen paralleled, but the max discharge rate does not.
4) no back up service line for advice if you run into problems. A warranty requires the product to be returned at the owners cost to the factory so they can determine if the fault is theirs to honour or not. Once you open the battery all warranty is void so you are left trusting the supplier to be honest in their dealings, but in the mean time you have no battery.
Question 3
Sounds great, if only that were possible. Why would anyone need to build or supply a BMS if the Redarc unit/s could act as a BMS themselves. If you read the last line in the fine print, Redarc requires the lithium battery to have its own BMS system.
There is no such thing as a charger that has a lithium profile unless it has a multiple wire interface that plugs into the battery that monitors the cell voltages and can charge an individual cell if required. The Victron batteries and charging systems have this system, check the price of the batteries and each component required to build the charging system required and the mater control interface, best be sitting down when you add it up.
The Victron system also requires you to use all their specified products, so you can't reuse any of what you already have.
Enerdrive is similar to this, the size battery you require is in the box you buy, you can't add them together. The system requires their products to be installed as well and you can't buy the battery and install it yourself, only one of their authorised installers can fit the system.
We are the only people who build an interface BMS system so you can safely use the equipment you already have. If we consider something isn't really up to the task, we will tell you, if you still want to use it we will include it as part of the system.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
07:22 PM Aug 26, 2019
oldtrack123 wrote:
Jaahn wrote:
Knight possibly the OP may not think a submarine discussion is not very helpfull
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 25th of August 2019 09:19:19 AM
But it is an interesting question,
Why are they not going with lithiums?
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 25th of August 2019 05:09:57 PM
We are talking about a military system that does things only once the very top level understands how it works or is willing to accept they will never understand it and be willing to hand the responsibility down the line to the level that does understand it.
Think about what level that would be, the only one possibly getting any training on the new chemistry would be the cadet just starting out ... if the instructor knows anything about it themselves. Do you think the top brass at govt level is going to make a decision about millions of $$ worth of batteries on the knowledge a first yr cadet might gain during their training ....... does that answer your question?
Why do govt depts. attempt to instigate a system that was tried and shown to not work by other govts throughout the world? Can anyone come up with a logical argument as to why they would do something that has already failed in other parts of the world?
A question from the other direction regarding lithium batteries, why do phone manufactures, cordless tool manufactures, 21st century house battery systems, electric vehicles and the various space industries not use lead acid batteries if they are so good?
T1 Terry
oldtrack123 said
11:08 PM Aug 26, 2019
Hi Terry Well, I guess that could be one reason. But surely those spending billions of dollars would be advised, by really qualified people .I can understand why they would not go for lithium-ion but why in the world would they put LAs ahead of Lifepo4s I would have thought they would be ideal for that type of use. Do you know any reason why they would be more of a concern than LAs in that situation [possible sal****er flooding being about the only thing]???
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of August 2019 11:09:46 PM
T1 Terry said
11:19 AM Aug 27, 2019
The Chinese military use the same cells as we use, the testing regime included shooting holes in the cells and dropping them into different grades of water. from distilled to swamp to sea water and even heavy water contaminated with radio active material. The results were all benign, no reaction and in fact the cell maintained its voltage and capacity in many of the tests, it simply could not be recharged. The ones that lost their voltage or stored capacity showed signs of the bullet cause plate to plate contact and that shorted the cell out. Still no explosion or fire or reaction to the water entering the cell.
The reason is the small amount of lithium in the cell is mixed with other elements and the coating is microns thick. There is just aren't any lithium pieces big enough to create any sort of a problem when coming into contact with the water.
LTO is the only other lithium compound that has proven to be as stable as LiFeP04 and related mixes containing Yttrium and other trace elements. The ideal cells would be LTO chemistry, so stable they put them inside human bodies as the power pack for nerve stimulators and pace makers. Inductive charging means the battery never needs to be removed and the expected life cycle is 128yr at last count, but testing is still on going.
This bit raised a bit of a chuckle
"But surely those spending billions of dollars would be advised, by really qualified people" are we talking about the same govt here? The one that says new coal fired power stations are a better investment than big batteries, even though South Australia has already proved the big battery and renewable energy can keep the lights on where coal fired power stations couldn't? Do believe the B/S that South Australia relies on the generation supply from other states, they actually export power to the adjoining states. The coal fired power station dependent states are warning of serious power shortages and black outs through summer, no such warning in SA. The federal govt can't even learn from one of its own states, what makes you think they are listening to "really qualified people"?
T1 Terry
Knight said
02:04 PM Aug 27, 2019
Coal fired, gas fired, nuclear energy power stations are steam turbine driven generators and they usually consist of multiples: lie 2, 4, 6 generators on site. Each can be adjusted and when one is shut down for programmed scheduled maintenance the others continue to generate. Or if needed another power station on the grid provides the electricity. The world's largest interconnected electricity grid spans from Tasmania to South Australia to Victoria to New South Wales/Australian Capital Territory too Queensland.
Today coal and gas continues to be the fuel for 70-80 per cent of the grid's essential baseload and peak demand periods. Hydro provides about 10 per cent. So wind and solar, but not reliably and with essential back up diesel or gas generators, pumped hydro or batteries, provide the smallest contribution. But combined with so called renewable energy subsidies and penalising of power stations other than hydro the impact has resulted in ever increasing consumer prices.
The SA battery is a jump start system to keep the grid energised while back up generators are started and/or electricity imported from Victoria via the interconnector transmission lines. That battery could not cope with a total statewide blackout and when fully charged has only a very short period of operation before it is discharged. And then a long period of recharging. It is another way to utilise wind energy when, as is often the case, it is not needed. When the wind blows etc.
-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 03:19:43 PM
Noelpolar said
05:10 PM Aug 27, 2019
My thoughts in blue...
HandyWalter wrote:
I have read so much about Lithium batteries that my head is now in a spin.I would like some simple answers to my questions please, no high tech stuff. My van is a 2015 van with a 120amp AGM battery with solar panel (with regulator), the ability to add an external solar panel (with regulator)and I guess a 240V to 12V battery charger as well. I would like to change to Lithium if possible. I have read that the better Lithium batteries have their own cell management systems. So my questions are as follows based on if I buy one of those types of batteries.
1. Can I just connect the battery and do nothing to any of the charging systems, as the Lithium BMS will protect the lithium cells?
If you believe some suppliers you can, actual results may vary and you probably won't know until you try.
2. If I do the above (1) what would be the negatives of doing so and would doing that damage my lithium battery?
Assuming you get a battery that has a reasonable BMS.... the major things I might expect to happen is that your various chargers (240v, Solar etc) will look for lead acid type voltages with their built in logic.... so in my case .... my DC2DC charger was looking for a 12v ish reading before switching from default float to Boost on "system power up" (i.e. device on power up saw 13.0v so it would go into float and bypass other charger states as it thought the was a good battery charge voltage.... float was fixed at 13.2v with this charger.... so a lithium had to be significantly discharged before charger would do much. This "general" type issue could be problematic in several ways... depending on charger thresholds.... both voltage and current.
Also, as a golden rule, battery BMS functionality is mostly about protecting the Battery from major undesirable events.... like over and under voltage.... operationally it should not be "THE THING" that you rely on.... your battery state of charge needs some other form of monitoring to keep you from hitting this "fall back" protection.... (i.e. a Victron 700, 712 etc etc)
If I was putting in a cheap and cheerful lithium for a suck and see experiment to replace a 120AGM.... I would probably go for something with built in blue tooth monitoring like:
3. Put a DC to DC charger with a lithium charging map between the current charging system wires to the battery, rather than try to rip apart boxes etc that already hold the charging modules and replace them with lithium charging type chargers or regulators. Ie I am thinking it would be cheaper to buy a Redarc 40amp dc/dc charger (about $400) connect its input wires to the current 12V solar wires and 12V charging wire from the 240V source, rather than get some auto electrician to put in a new internal solar regulator and new 240V charger to accept the lithium charging regime.
FWIW.... I have a 200ah Lithium plugged into my standard Jayco Stec unit.... just like any other battery..... but I have a simple diode in the positive line.... so the Setec sees it as a battery source but can't charge it.... so the built in van smarts just see us as operating "off battery" when 240v isn't present.... and when 240v is present to the Setec unit it switches to power supply mode to run the van 12v systems....but can't charge the battery (diode stops this).
I have added a Eneredrive DC2DC 40A which has a solar regulator built in (my solar panels are hooked up to it) so that just connects to the battery.... and has user and lithium profiles.... pretty cheap at around $400.... and can also be used to charge as you drive (if cabled). With enough solar on the roof..... I rarely need to charge via 240v..... at a caravan park the Setc unit runs the van systems in it's default power supply mode.... whilst solar still tops up the battery whilst we are there..... I have added a victron 240v charger ($250 for a 25 or 30amp one).... but don't use it much.... once or twice in our last 3 month trip.
My Jayco system doesn't monitor the battery SOC for lithium off course.... so I have added a viltron 712..... as my battery doesn't have inbuilt SOC monitoring (i.e. bluetooth).
I only mention all this to suggest there are simplest ways to go about things.
Keep in mind....though what continous max current you may want to draw in the future though.... as even in normalish vans adding a 2kw inverter gets tempting at some stage... so 150 amp plus continous delivery is minimum I reckon.... and can be probilatic down the road via two parallel drop ins.
I am no expert though.... so just supplied FYI.
Thanks Walter
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:10:55 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:15:10 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:31:14 PM
HandyWalter said
07:40 AM Aug 28, 2019
Thankyou all for your comments and advice. It would appear that despite all the hype about Lithium, the cost is so expensive it is not a viable alternative at the moment. I guess I will keep my generator and get a bigger battery and just upset everybody in winter when the sun dont shine.
Cheers
T1 Terry said
10:57 AM Aug 28, 2019
Knight wrote:
Coal fired, gas fired, nuclear energy power stations are steam turbine driven generators and they usually consist of multiples: lie 2, 4, 6 generators on site. Each can be adjusted and when one is shut down for programmed scheduled maintenance the others continue to generate. Or if needed another power station on the grid provides the electricity. The world's largest interconnected electricity grid spans from Tasmania to South Australia to Victoria to New South Wales/Australian Capital Territory too Queensland.
Today coal and gas continues to be the fuel for 70-80 per cent of the grid's essential baseload and peak demand periods. Hydro provides about 10 per cent. So wind and solar, but not reliably and with essential back up diesel or gas generators, pumped hydro or batteries, provide the smallest contribution. But combined with so called renewable energy subsidies and penalising of power stations other than hydro the impact has resulted in ever increasing consumer prices.
The SA battery is a jump start system to keep the grid energised while back up generators are started and/or electricity imported from Victoria via the interconnector transmission lines. That battery could not cope with a total statewide blackout and when fully charged has only a very short period of operation before it is discharged. And then a long period of recharging. It is another way to utilise wind energy when, as is often the case, it is not needed. When the wind blows etc.
-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 03:19:43 PM
Not sure where you get your information about how the South Australian big battery works, but you are not even close to understanding how the big battery works. The battery is a giant capacitor, the voltage spikes that cause the black outs are absorbed by the battery, when there is a dip in the frequency or grid voltage, the battery holds the system up. It was never intended to power the grid for hrs at a time, just to keep it stable, something the other states can not do if something suddenly drop out on the grid supply. Once the grid shuts down, all the supply generation also shuts down.
When both Qld and Victoria dropped off the grid in the peak of summer, South Australia was supplying power to both networks. There was a massive voltage spike that would normally have caused the grid to go down here as well, but the battery absorbed that spike, then filled in the following dip and all the ripples following such an event. This kept the grid stable and as a result, all the roof top solar remained functional so continued to supply to the grid, the wind farms remained on line and so did the solar farms. It wasn't the diesel generators that suddenly kicked in to supply the state, they aren't that big, they didn't even start up because the wind was still blowing and the sun was still shining.
You don't seem to understand how long it takes to spin up a steam turbine either, gas takes about 20 mins, coal takes ages because the feed needs to be increased at a rate that won't smother the fire, the increased fuel burn needs increase the steam production so the load can slowly be increased on each turbine so the pressure remains within a useable range. You can't flick a switch and get increased output from a coal fired or gas fired power station that is already at peak capacity. A dip in the frequency or voltage will trip out the contactors, the following spike will do the same and so on. Once the grid goes down, so does all the roof top supply, wind generator output and solar farm output, with a big battery that won't happen.
Why are they against the big battery? With out a system stabiliser the supply costs spike when the demand spikes because there is nothing to supply those peak demands. The power generator people know this is what happens so they hold off bidding for supply till the price goes up. The price needs to be high to make a gas fired plant worth starting up, so the whole system is gamed to keep the supply price high by letting all the renewables supply the low priced capacity while they hold out for the big $$ stuff.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
11:11 AM Aug 28, 2019
HandyWalter wrote:
Thankyou all for your comments and advice. It would appear that despite all the hype about Lithium, the cost is so expensive it is not a viable alternative at the moment. I guess I will keep my generator and get a bigger battery and just upset everybody in winter when the sun dont shine.
Cheers
I have no idea where you are getting your information either. The price for quality lithium, if gauged by useable capacity before the 12v cut off point is reached, is very close to the price for middle of the range AGM. Quality for quality and capacity for capacity, AGM batteries are way more expensive.
If you don't believe me, check out the price of a Concorde 200Ah 12v deep cycle battery because that is the real comparison to a 100Ah Winston cell lithium battery.
You can buy cheap AGM batteries and you can buy cheap lithium batteries, if you want to do the comparison at that price range I think you will still find that lithium is cheaper. Neither will last as long as people seem to pretend they do, but if you really do want 10 yrs service that will deliver the same as it did when it was new, you need to spend the $$ to buy quality.
The bitter taste of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweat taste of a cheap price is forgotten : Benjamin Franklin.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
11:16 AM Aug 28, 2019
Noelpolar wrote:
My thoughts in blue...
FWIW.... I have a 200ah Lithium plugged into my standard Jayco Stec unit.... just like any other battery..... but I have a simple diode in the positive line.... so the Setec sees it as a battery source but can't charge it.... so the built in van smarts just see us as operating "off battery" when 240v isn't present.... and when 240v is present to the Setec unit it switches to power supply mode to run the van 12v systems....but can't charge the battery (diode stops this).
I have added a Eneredrive DC2DC 40A which has a solar regulator built in (my solar panels are hooked up to it) so that just connects to the battery.... and has user and lithium profiles.... pretty cheap at around $400.... and can also be used to charge as you drive (if cabled). With enough solar on the roof..... I rarely need to charge via 240v..... at a caravan park the Setc unit runs the van systems in it's default power supply mode.... whilst solar still tops up the battery whilst we are there..... I have added a victron 240v charger ($250 for a 25 or 30amp one).... but don't use it much.... once or twice in our last 3 month trip.
My Jayco system doesn't monitor the battery SOC for lithium off course.... so I have added a viltron 712..... as my battery doesn't have inbuilt SOC monitoring (i.e. bluetooth).
I only mention all this to suggest there are simplest ways to go about things.
Keep in mind....though what continous max current you may want to draw in the future though.... as even in normalish vans adding a 2kw inverter gets tempting at some stage... so 150 amp plus continous delivery is minimum I reckon.... and can be probilatic down the road via two parallel drop ins.
I am no expert though.... so just supplied FYI.
Thanks Walter
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:10:55 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:15:10 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:31:14 PM
The non charging because the voltage is not what the charger is expecting to see is a BMS problem. You need to have a BMS that interfaces between the chargers and the battery, not just something that stops the charger when it thinks the battery is full or empty
T1 Terry
HandyWalter said
03:25 PM Aug 28, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
I have no idea where you are getting your information either. The price for quality lithium, if gauged by useable capacity before the 12v cut off point is reached, is very close to the price for middle of the range AGM. Quality for quality and capacity for capacity, AGM batteries are way more expensive.
If you don't believe me, check out the price of a Concorde 200Ah 12v deep cycle battery because that is the real comparison to a 100Ah Winston cell lithium battery.
You can buy cheap AGM batteries and you can buy cheap lithium batteries, if you want to do the comparison at that price range I think you will still find that lithium is cheaper. Neither will last as long as people seem to pretend they do, but if you really do want 10 yrs service that will deliver the same as it did when it was new, you need to spend the $$ to buy quality.
The bitter taste of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweat taste of a cheap price is forgotten : Benjamin Franklin.
T1 Terry
I understand Terry what you are saying, but I can just go and buy a AGM battery and if the sun dont shine, I just hook up my gennie. My concern about Lithium has been highlighted here with lots of confusion by well meaning members. Also its not just a simple case of take out the old battery and put in a Lithium. So there is a large cost outlay tio get my eklectrics to accept and preserve a lithium battery. I guess I have put up with the "issues" of a AGM battery for the past 4 years and so another 4 years will probably roll by in which case Litghium will be more widely used and conversion will become cheaper as developments occur. I understand that for weight , output etc Lithium will outperform Lead or AGM, but its the peripheral items you need to make the Lith Battery perform at its optimum, that still makes it uneconomic for me at this point in time. Great battery if I was starting from scratch but that not then case for me. Cheers Walter
El Gringo said
03:46 PM Aug 28, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
I have no idea where you are getting your information either. The price for quality lithium, if gauged by useable capacity before the 12v cut off point is reached, is very close to the price for middle of the range AGM. Quality for quality and capacity for capacity, AGM batteries are way more expensive.
If you don't believe me, check out the price of a Concorde 200Ah 12v deep cycle battery because that is the real comparison to a 100Ah Winston cell lithium battery.
You can buy cheap AGM batteries and you can buy cheap lithium batteries, if you want to do the comparison at that price range I think you will still find that lithium is cheaper. Neither will last as long as people seem to pretend they do, but if you really do want 10 yrs service that will deliver the same as it did when it was new, you need to spend the $$ to buy quality.
The bitter taste of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweat taste of a cheap price is forgotten : Benjamin Franklin.
Why don't you take T1's challenge? He says it's not as expensive as you think so why not test him out?
Contact Margaret at T1 Lithium and get a price for the conversion.
I know they have done many Lithium setup's using a lot of what already exists in the way of charging etc.
I reckon plenty of members here would be very interested to see what their pricing is really like...
Cheers,
-- Edited by El Gringo on Wednesday 28th of August 2019 03:47:05 PM
Bagmaker said
03:52 PM Aug 28, 2019
Walter if you are not using batteries much then AGMs are cheaper, if you are going to use them a lot then LiFePo4 is cheaper.
"4 years" could be a dozen trips to the beachside caravan park or equally it could be 1460 days of hard usage.
The RAN decision should be seen as the cutting edge in electronic/marine/weapons/systems that it is (not).
As usual.
Dont base such a thing on good practice.
HandyWalter said
05:39 PM Aug 28, 2019
El Gringo, I would if I could but I live in Melbourne and dont plan on traveling to SA any time soon. Bagmaker, I go on at least two 4-6 week trips where we stay off the grid for at least % of the time. The issue often is that with SWMBO demanding heating and TV plus we like to stay up late at night often means my drifter says it only has about 10hrs max left in it in the mornings. Fire up the TV and lately I had a shut down. Ok it could be the battery is old, but once fully charged I have 13+V and 190hrs available under basically no load! As I said, if was as simple as replace the battery with lithium and flick a switch to select battery type, I would change in a flash and connect an inverter to boot so I could use the coffee machine. But as usual things are not that easy ....or cheap!
I have read so much about Lithium batteries that my head is now in a spin.I would like some simple answers to my questions please, no high tech stuff. My van is a 2015 van with a 120amp AGM battery with solar panel (with regulator), the ability to add an external solar panel (with regulator)and I guess a 240V to 12V battery charger as well. I would like to change to Lithium if possible. I have read that the better Lithium batteries have their own cell management systems. So my questions are as follows based on if I buy one of those types of batteries.
1. Can I just connect the battery and do nothing to any of the charging systems, as the Lithium BMS will protect the lithium cells?
2. If I do the above (1) what would be the negatives of doing so and would doing that damage my lithium battery?
If I cannot would a solution be to
3. Put a DC to DC charger with a lithium charging map between the current charging system wires to the battery, rather than try to rip apart boxes etc that already hold the charging modules and replace them with lithium charging type chargers or regulators. Ie I am thinking it would be cheaper to buy a Redarc 40amp dc/dc charger (about $400) connect its input wires to the current 12V solar wires and 12V charging wire from the 240V source, rather than get some auto electrician to put in a new internal solar regulator and new 240V charger to accept the lithium charging regime.
Thanks Walter
There are more and more reports of drop in lithium battery failures surfacing, simply staying with lead acid batteries (AGM is just a type of lead acid battery) or even worse, going back to AGM batteries, is not the way to go. You need to know that the person who is designing the system that supports and protects the lithium battery that suits your needs, actually knows what they are doing. Just throwing money into it won't necessarily sort the problem either. We've had a few through the workshop now that have thrown thousands of $$ into the same hole they threw their hard earned $$ when the bought the drop in batteries in the first place. Advice about replacing this or that, all from auto electricians, but without understanding the real problem their fix was not going to solve the problem. We did get them back on the road and have received thank you emails after 6 mths or more saying that at last they can travel without worrying if the battery will fail over night.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
If I was considering installing a lithium battery I would also install a compatible BMS(Battery Management System). Then any existing battery I would investigate connecting it as a charging source for the lithium battery.
Solar cells charge existing battery which charges the lithium battery.
I doubt that you could get a BMS which could manage different cell chemistries at the same time.
This Wikipedia link to BMS explains how a BMS works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system
But would Lithium ion be safe underwater where a bump or depth charge blast might set them off bursting into flame?
Hi Walter
I will give my opinion but I am not expert on lithium battery systems. Battery systems in caravans can be really basic and work only on the lowest cost principle. They may in a small system like yours struggle to do the job required if the owner knows little about using them. Used correctly and wisely within their capabilities they can work well. But overused and misunderstood as to their capacity they just kill batteries and cause grief !
So my first question is why do you want lithium batteries??? Does your current battery NOT DO what you want. In what way ?
As a caravan battery system is usually a collection of means of charging just thrown together they are often not too good anyway for the AGM battery but can work. Expecting to somehow adapt that to a different type with different voltages and end points seem to be silly and unlikely to provide a good result.
"A BMS may protect its battery by preventing it from operating outside its safe operating area" is a statement from that reference, but it shows that it does nothing to properly charge the battery in the normal operating area. So if you wish to invest in an expensive battery then set it up correctly or pay the price ! IMHO
Jaahn
PS Knight possibly the OP may not think a submarine discussion is not very helpfull
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 25th of August 2019 09:19:19 AM
But it is an interesting question,
Why are they not going with lithiums?
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 25th of August 2019 05:09:57 PM
LOL
Thanks Walter
Hi Knight
It is not offensive just irrelevant to this discussion. The OP asked some specific questions and did say this " I would like some simple answers to my questions please, no high tech stuff."
So where do submarines fit into an answer for him ??
My simple answer is just start a new thread. There is no charge for starting a thread and people might find it interesting too. I would.
Jaahn
Hi Walter
You have not said how much solar you have. I suspect that is the first problem. If you have enough solar you can use it during the day and also charge the battery.
Second problem could be you are using more power than you have stored in the battery anyway and if you have lithium of similar capacity it also will need charging too.
To say more we would need to know what you use and how long and what you expect to be able to do. I have a small system like yours and can stay as long as we want if it is sunny and we look at the meter to see what is happening to the battery.
There is no simple, one size fits all answer to all questions
Jaahn
Jahan
What is your position here that you believe provides you with a licence to criticise others?
Very clearly to most readers here my reply was about Lithium ion batteries. Obviously, the fact that the RAN chooses Lead Acid batteries is noteworthy, after all if Lithium ion was considered to be superior the RAN would not have decided on old design or well proven design Lead Acid technology.
My concern about Lithium ion batteries is the danger of explosion into a very hot fire that cannot be extinguished with normal fire fighting equipment and requires firstly a large quantity of water to cool the Lithium ion batteries down before fire can be dealt with and they have been experienced re-igniting even a day or two after apparently being extinguished. As I have posted about here before.
Months ago a mother in the ACT left a Lithium ion battery pack used for starting a vehicle with a discharged battery and other uses such as recharging a mobile phone, it was a hot day and just as she got behind the steering wheel after strapping her children into their car seats the battery exploded into flames, no warming apart from a short sizzling sound. The vehicle was written off.
Lithium ion batteries can become unstable when exposed to heat or because of a heavy impact, like an electric vehicle smashing into a tree or grounding on a speed bump.
The RAN are of course concerned about health and safety of crews, and lives, and chose not to specify Lithium ion batteries.
I trust that you will not attempt to criticise this post.
And I refer to your lectures on other posts as the self appointed board censor.
-- Edited by Knight on Monday 26th of August 2019 08:25:41 AM
A separate thread on the dangers of lithium ion would indeed be interesting and possibly helpful since most of us own at least one.
Jim
Hi Walter
I do not think I can help you with any more answers. The people who could say have wisely, in my opinion, declined to answer so far.
Ask Knight he seems to want to contribute to your thread
I do not wish to be the censor for any thread but obviously the forum does not have any effective moderation to help it 'get along" IMHO. Hence this conversation
Cheers jaahn
So let me understand your complaint Jaan, I posted about Lithium ion batteries and that the RAN had rejected them for submarines, isn't that fact relevant to questions about Lithium ion batteries?
When I read posts that I consider to be irrelevant I move on, I suggest you adopt the same approach. I would also not embarrass myself by commenting as you have done.
I'd love to answer the questions without being vague, but as soon as I try I get attacked for using the forum as a sales platform.
An answer to Question 1:
The quality of the internal BMS determines if directly connecting what you have to the replacement lithium battery. If the BMS is not really up to the task, the cells will be damaged and eventually destroyed. This sort of answers question 2 as well. Price generally reflects quality, you can't expect to buy a quality lithium battery with a quality BMS that will adapt the charging systems you have so they properly charge the cells without damaging them for less than $1,000 per 100Ah @ 12v.
Cutting corners makes the battery build cheaper:
1) falsely quoting the capacity by using ridiculously low discharge rates till the cells are dragged down to a voltage likely to damage them makes the components cheaper to source
2) a BMS that simply reads battery voltage rather than cell voltage and simply opens a relay if the voltage goes above or below that point is far cheaper than a BMS that controls the charging units you already have so they don't damage the cells by monitoring the actual cell voltages rather than just the terminal voltage.
3) using misleading statements like "the batteries can be paralleled" to suggest that the max discharge limit adds together for each extra battery in parallel e.g. 50amps max discharge rate, the purchaser is left to assume that each additional battery will increase the max discharge by another 50 amps. This is not stated any where on their advertising or specifications, that is because there is no system in each battery to limit the maximum discharge to 50 amps. This means 1 battery or 5 batteries paralleled together can still only deliver 50 amps without voiding the warranty, the capacity might add together hen paralleled, but the max discharge rate does not.
4) no back up service line for advice if you run into problems. A warranty requires the product to be returned at the owners cost to the factory so they can determine if the fault is theirs to honour or not. Once you open the battery all warranty is void so you are left trusting the supplier to be honest in their dealings, but in the mean time you have no battery.
Question 3
Sounds great, if only that were possible. Why would anyone need to build or supply a BMS if the Redarc unit/s could act as a BMS themselves. If you read the last line in the fine print, Redarc requires the lithium battery to have its own BMS system.
There is no such thing as a charger that has a lithium profile unless it has a multiple wire interface that plugs into the battery that monitors the cell voltages and can charge an individual cell if required. The Victron batteries and charging systems have this system, check the price of the batteries and each component required to build the charging system required and the mater control interface, best be sitting down when you add it up.
The Victron system also requires you to use all their specified products, so you can't reuse any of what you already have.
Enerdrive is similar to this, the size battery you require is in the box you buy, you can't add them together. The system requires their products to be installed as well and you can't buy the battery and install it yourself, only one of their authorised installers can fit the system.
We are the only people who build an interface BMS system so you can safely use the equipment you already have. If we consider something isn't really up to the task, we will tell you, if you still want to use it we will include it as part of the system.
T1 Terry
We are talking about a military system that does things only once the very top level understands how it works or is willing to accept they will never understand it and be willing to hand the responsibility down the line to the level that does understand it.
Think about what level that would be, the only one possibly getting any training on the new chemistry would be the cadet just starting out ... if the instructor knows anything about it themselves. Do you think the top brass at govt level is going to make a decision about millions of $$ worth of batteries on the knowledge a first yr cadet might gain during their training ....... does that answer your question?
Why do govt depts. attempt to instigate a system that was tried and shown to not work by other govts throughout the world? Can anyone come up with a logical argument as to why they would do something that has already failed in other parts of the world?
A question from the other direction regarding lithium batteries, why do phone manufactures, cordless tool manufactures, 21st century house battery systems, electric vehicles and the various space industries not use lead acid batteries if they are so good?
T1 Terry
Hi Terry
Well, I guess that could be one reason.
But surely those spending billions of dollars would be advised, by really qualified people
.I can understand why they would not go for lithium-ion but why in the world would they put LAs ahead of Lifepo4s
I would have thought they would be ideal for that type of use.
Do you know any reason why they would be more of a concern than LAs in that situation [possible sal****er flooding being about the only thing]???
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of August 2019 11:09:46 PM
The reason is the small amount of lithium in the cell is mixed with other elements and the coating is microns thick. There is just aren't any lithium pieces big enough to create any sort of a problem when coming into contact with the water.
LTO is the only other lithium compound that has proven to be as stable as LiFeP04 and related mixes containing Yttrium and other trace elements. The ideal cells would be LTO chemistry, so stable they put them inside human bodies as the power pack for nerve stimulators and pace makers. Inductive charging means the battery never needs to be removed and the expected life cycle is 128yr at last count, but testing is still on going.
This bit raised a bit of a chuckle
"But surely those spending billions of dollars would be advised, by really qualified people" are we talking about the same govt here? The one that says new coal fired power stations are a better investment than big batteries, even though South Australia has already proved the big battery and renewable energy can keep the lights on where coal fired power stations couldn't? Do believe the B/S that South Australia relies on the generation supply from other states, they actually export power to the adjoining states. The coal fired power station dependent states are warning of serious power shortages and black outs through summer, no such warning in SA. The federal govt can't even learn from one of its own states, what makes you think they are listening to "really qualified people"?
T1 Terry
Coal fired, gas fired, nuclear energy power stations are steam turbine driven generators and they usually consist of multiples: lie 2, 4, 6 generators on site. Each can be adjusted and when one is shut down for programmed scheduled maintenance the others continue to generate. Or if needed another power station on the grid provides the electricity. The world's largest interconnected electricity grid spans from Tasmania to South Australia to Victoria to New South Wales/Australian Capital Territory too Queensland.
Today coal and gas continues to be the fuel for 70-80 per cent of the grid's essential baseload and peak demand periods. Hydro provides about 10 per cent. So wind and solar, but not reliably and with essential back up diesel or gas generators, pumped hydro or batteries, provide the smallest contribution. But combined with so called renewable energy subsidies and penalising of power stations other than hydro the impact has resulted in ever increasing consumer prices.
The SA battery is a jump start system to keep the grid energised while back up generators are started and/or electricity imported from Victoria via the interconnector transmission lines. That battery could not cope with a total statewide blackout and when fully charged has only a very short period of operation before it is discharged. And then a long period of recharging. It is another way to utilise wind energy when, as is often the case, it is not needed. When the wind blows etc.
-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 03:19:43 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:10:55 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:15:10 PM
-- Edited by Noelpolar on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 05:31:14 PM
Cheers
Not sure where you get your information about how the South Australian big battery works, but you are not even close to understanding how the big battery works. The battery is a giant capacitor, the voltage spikes that cause the black outs are absorbed by the battery, when there is a dip in the frequency or grid voltage, the battery holds the system up. It was never intended to power the grid for hrs at a time, just to keep it stable, something the other states can not do if something suddenly drop out on the grid supply. Once the grid shuts down, all the supply generation also shuts down.
When both Qld and Victoria dropped off the grid in the peak of summer, South Australia was supplying power to both networks. There was a massive voltage spike that would normally have caused the grid to go down here as well, but the battery absorbed that spike, then filled in the following dip and all the ripples following such an event. This kept the grid stable and as a result, all the roof top solar remained functional so continued to supply to the grid, the wind farms remained on line and so did the solar farms. It wasn't the diesel generators that suddenly kicked in to supply the state, they aren't that big, they didn't even start up because the wind was still blowing and the sun was still shining.
You don't seem to understand how long it takes to spin up a steam turbine either, gas takes about 20 mins, coal takes ages because the feed needs to be increased at a rate that won't smother the fire, the increased fuel burn needs increase the steam production so the load can slowly be increased on each turbine so the pressure remains within a useable range. You can't flick a switch and get increased output from a coal fired or gas fired power station that is already at peak capacity. A dip in the frequency or voltage will trip out the contactors, the following spike will do the same and so on. Once the grid goes down, so does all the roof top supply, wind generator output and solar farm output, with a big battery that won't happen.
Why are they against the big battery? With out a system stabiliser the supply costs spike when the demand spikes because there is nothing to supply those peak demands. The power generator people know this is what happens so they hold off bidding for supply till the price goes up. The price needs to be high to make a gas fired plant worth starting up, so the whole system is gamed to keep the supply price high by letting all the renewables supply the low priced capacity while they hold out for the big $$ stuff.
T1 Terry
I have no idea where you are getting your information either. The price for quality lithium, if gauged by useable capacity before the 12v cut off point is reached, is very close to the price for middle of the range AGM. Quality for quality and capacity for capacity, AGM batteries are way more expensive.
If you don't believe me, check out the price of a Concorde 200Ah 12v deep cycle battery because that is the real comparison to a 100Ah Winston cell lithium battery.
You can buy cheap AGM batteries and you can buy cheap lithium batteries, if you want to do the comparison at that price range I think you will still find that lithium is cheaper. Neither will last as long as people seem to pretend they do, but if you really do want 10 yrs service that will deliver the same as it did when it was new, you need to spend the $$ to buy quality.
The bitter taste of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweat taste of a cheap price is forgotten : Benjamin Franklin.
T1 Terry
The non charging because the voltage is not what the charger is expecting to see is a BMS problem. You need to have a BMS that interfaces between the chargers and the battery, not just something that stops the charger when it thinks the battery is full or empty
T1 Terry
I understand Terry what you are saying, but I can just go and buy a AGM battery and if the sun dont shine, I just hook up my gennie. My concern about Lithium has been highlighted here with lots of confusion by well meaning members. Also its not just a simple case of take out the old battery and put in a Lithium. So there is a large cost outlay tio get my eklectrics to accept and preserve a lithium battery. I guess I have put up with the "issues" of a AGM battery for the past 4 years and so another 4 years will probably roll by in which case Litghium will be more widely used and conversion will become cheaper as developments occur. I understand that for weight , output etc Lithium will outperform Lead or AGM, but its the peripheral items you need to make the Lith Battery perform at its optimum, that still makes it uneconomic for me at this point in time. Great battery if I was starting from scratch but that not then case for me. Cheers Walter
Why don't you take T1's challenge? He says it's not as expensive as you think so why not test him out?
Contact Margaret at T1 Lithium and get a price for the conversion.
I know they have done many Lithium setup's using a lot of what already exists in the way of charging etc.
I reckon plenty of members here would be very interested to see what their pricing is really like...
Cheers,
-- Edited by El Gringo on Wednesday 28th of August 2019 03:47:05 PM
"4 years" could be a dozen trips to the beachside caravan park or equally it could be 1460 days of hard usage.
The RAN decision should be seen as the cutting edge in electronic/marine/weapons/systems that it is (not).
As usual.
Dont base such a thing on good practice.