PS It would be a pain for the knockers to start the usual winge about how will these tow my van around !!
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:53 AM Sep 26, 2019
SEA has been around quite a while and have a reputation for quality.
I fitted an SEA 1300W PSW inverter to the OKA in 2004. It has been faultless.
Cheers,
Peter
T1 Terry said
12:15 PM Sep 26, 2019
There was another electric vehicle company building electric buses in Victoria, they were just about to put the service buses on the road and govt decided there were more votes to had supporting a new venture than supporting the new venture they supported before. So their funding shifted to these people. The battery packs sold off very quickly but they couldn't sell the electric buses. Now they have stripped them out and are selling the 4 speed computer shift gearbox with computer, the electric motors with computer and VFD and the whole lot combined. I am in negotiations at the moment to buy the motor/gearbox and all the associated electronics to do a conversion in my big bus project. Things seem to have stalled at the moment so I'm wondering if this mob has bought up what they had in a single allotment and this is why I haven't heard any more from them. Not a game changer for me, I already have a motor and controller for the bus project, but one all set up ready to do would have made life very easy.
There are also start ups in Adelaide and Brisbane, I think they are aiming at the light delivery van market for couriers etc. Of course there is also the Tesla owned mob that are building prime movers with gas turbines and small battery packs that appear to be lighter than the equivalent prime mover producing the same torque at the drive wheels. It is all about the torque to the road, not what the engine can develop, the voltage is to limiting factor as far as speed.
Something I have toyed with for many yrs, electric drive to every wheel rather than the 4 wheels on the prime mover doing all the work. 50kW at the wheel on the 4 prime mover wheels and another 25kW on each steer wheel, 250kW on the ground for the prime mover. That is plenty for around town deliveries and shuffling trailers when either at the depot or at the trailer exchange. Add a dolly for a road train and 50kW per wheel, 300kW plus the 250kW the prime mover has, 550kW available from the moment the wheels start to turn, nothing on the road in the trucking game at the moment can match that. Thing about it, instant torque to pull out and over take so no more of that thing where they need to wind up to pass an RV. No more crawling off the mark and shifting a dozen gears when trying to take off on a hill. No more run up required to get a road train over a dirt road climb because a lot more wheels are driving and spreading that 550kW at 50kW per wheel, no wheel spin problems. Braking is the same, no more wheel lock ups, all the drive wheels become regen devices up to 50kW per wheel, but only as long as they are still turning, so no compression lock up and the regen can absorb a lot more speed energy than the brake lining can turn into heat for a lot longer, pull up straight, no tyre damage and would stop in a lot shorter distance than locked wheels can. Add another dolly, now there is 3 full size trailers and 850kW available. It would probably spell the end of the B double and B triple and the quad we sometimes see out there, the company gets to use any semi trailer because they all will couple up to a dolly. Now add a remote control to drive the dolly at say 5km/h. Simply drop the dolly in the yard or at the customers drop off zone, the load controller can now drive the trailer into the dock for unloading and out to another dock for reloading, then back out to the pick up area. The next truck through sinply picks up the dolly and plugs in and away they go. Loose a plug coupling, the dolly goes into 25% regen and the prime mover now has to drag it off the road to check what has happened. No jack knife because the trailer/s are in regen so effectively braking.
Sure lends it self to autonomous drive prime movers eh No more memorials on the side of the road for a trucker who sacrificed themselves for their pay packet. They would still be needed to drive the dollies around the trailer exchange, do the paperwork or button pressing as to which hauling company was dragging which dolly so just who gets paid for that part of the haul. They still need drivers that understand logistics to organise loads in each trailer and who to contact to collect that trailer, but they still get to go home each night to their family.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 26th of September 2019 12:16:10 PM
Bicyclecamper said
01:59 PM Sep 26, 2019
Well, I totally believe in one day having a 4wd to tow my c/van that is electric, if I can afford it. I visited a mine in the Pilbara that had electric landcruisers, pulling heavy trailers, and not recharging for 3 days. Hell even the big loaders, and truck/tippers are electric, and they carry a hell of a lot of weight. It is coming, and I see within 5 years, electric vehicles being the norm. ,with the government, paying conventional vehicle owners to put their gas guzzlers off the road, which is why I don't intend to buy another vehicle until electrics are everywhere.
T1 Terry said
12:07 PM Sep 27, 2019
If you look here http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5721 you can see the progress of someone who is already converting their gas guzzler to full electric so they can go on the road full time fuel cost free.
T1 Terry
Knight said
03:21 PM Sep 27, 2019
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Well, I totally believe in one day having a 4wd to tow my c/van that is electric, if I can afford it. I visited a mine in the Pilbara that had electric landcruisers, pulling heavy trailers, and not recharging for 3 days. Hell even the big loaders, and truck/tippers are electric, and they carry a hell of a lot of weight. It is coming, and I see within 5 years, electric vehicles being the norm. ,with the government, paying conventional vehicle owners to put their gas guzzlers off the road, which is why I don't intend to buy another vehicle until electrics are everywhere.
The world's largest interconnected electricity grid covers TAS-VIC-SA-NSW/ACT-QLD.
Right now the authorities are working overtime to keep it energised and cope with essential "baseload" demand ... like the town water supply pressurised with pumps sufficiently to maintain pressure to meet normal demand ... the electricity grid supplies all consumers, domestic is a small segment by comparison with government/commercial/industrial demand. And of course peak demand requires more generation capacity.
To recharge a fleet of EV replacing our IECV would require a major upgrading of generating capacity and transmission lines. already the existing transmission lines designed for energy main from power stations, including about 10% hydro and about 10% renewables intermittently.
In the UK an electrical engineering organisation advised the government that, theoretically, to cope with an all EV fleet replacement would require the whole of Scotland in land area and offshore of wind turbines. Add "firming" or feeder transmission lines to the main grid and back up generators and even storage of energy that intermittent operation and unreliable wind generators must have.
For Australia the cost just to provide the energy supply would be prohibitively expensive. So ask why the push for EV, considering that man made global warming caused by CO2 is a political hoax?
Answer has been published, but many ignored it or failed to understand. For example: $300 million gifted to fleet leasing firms by the federal government to promote EV usage by fleet operators. Tesla mentioning a buy-back system with second-hand Tesla EV becoming taxi cabs, autonomous operation. Others have mentioned community autonomous buses. The aim is no privately owned transportation. And like for some wealthy people in Communist China, enjoy capitalism but stay for life in a walled district with travel outside permits needed. After all the Greens and Glibalist fellow travellers want far less impact on Earth.
No argument that EV could be a replacement for ICEV, assuming that recharging time and convenience of stations matched liquid fuels, and EV were no more expensive. But the big issue is energy supply and availability.
Craig1 said
09:22 PM Sep 27, 2019
Victoria is about to legislate for the 50% renewable by 2030.This has passed Lower House , both parties somehow. Absolutely no plan for any back up power, let alone how to recharge any batteries at the end of the day. A great Blackout Plan by Mad Dan.
Mariner30 said
11:15 PM Sep 27, 2019
Not car, 4WD or truck related,
But there is a interesting read in the current issue of the Wooden Boat magazine about a electric motor powered wooden runabout built here in Tas,
Dunno if there is a online platform for it but the boat's name is " Zelectra"
T1 Terry said
09:59 AM Sep 28, 2019
I just love the total B/S spun by climate denialists and those who can not accept change. I'm guessing the same mentality was behind the luddite movement that tried to stop the industrial revolution.
A few mths back we had one of the chief electrical engineers for SA power give a talk at the SA branch meeting regarding the integration of electric vehicles into the energy grid. Now keep in mind South Australia is totally renewable powered and sells power to the other states. They have already introduced an off peak rate during the day designed mostly for electric vehicle stations and battery backed house system to take advantage of so they can sell the abundant power available from roof top solar that at the moment they have difficulty utilising. There is a reason household systems must be registered with the energy supply authority and limited to 5kW inverters, until there is some where for that energy to go then they have to limit what can come in. They do that by actually controlling the inverter on each house so they can throttle back the amount being pushed into the grid. If SA has more power than it can use, sells it to the states that don't have the power generation they require, yet still can't fully utilise all the generation capabilities ir has now before the next lot of big batteries join the grid, why can't the eastern states get it together? Not far to travel to SA to see how a grid generation system should be set up eh?
The only reason the east coast states are struggling is because the voters there are brain washed into believing the big battery doesn't work. If you don't believe me, do you remember this being on the news at all in the east coast states? reneweconomy.com.au/how-the-tesla-big-battery-kept-the-lights-on-in-south-australia-20393/ They aren't likely to put that out there for the voters to read while trying to sell the need for a new coal fired power station and explain away why they pay big $$ to the other coal fired power station in the form of cheap subsidised coal to keep them from shutting up shop ...... Time the east coast voters realised they are being lied to by those that have a vested interest in coal fired power stations.
When do you think we will see street protests demanding a big battery plan for each state to keep the lights on?
In a way I'm sorry I left NSW as far as potential business opportunities, off grid or battery back up systems that keep more than just a few lights on in the house, but rather make the whole house UPS capable. That is what we do for RV's and houses on the grid fringe now even here in SA, can you imagine the work we'd have if we were still in NSW? The advantage of living in a state that once had a forward thinking state govt far out weighs the losses, I'm confident the voters here aren't blind to the realities of life and this state will again go into the future with pollies interested in the improvement of the state rather than their bottom line.
T1 Terry
Knight said
10:13 AM Sep 28, 2019
Terry, I could change your story and aim it back at you.
There are no "denialists", that is a Church of Climate Change description, scientologists attempting to belittle any opposition to their doomsday predictions, extinction, emergency, etc.
Sceptics like me understand that climate changing is natural Earth Cycles, and has been since time began. In the land we call Australia the climate zone changed about 130,000 years ago from wet to dry conditions and the rainforests retreated to be replaced by bushland that thrives on fire for regeneration, and tolerates long droughts. In between times there was an Ice Age and later a Little Ice Age, the latter ended a few hundred years ago. Caused by a decline in solar activities, a Maunder Minimum that is underway again at this time.
Like it or note, wind and solar is intermittent, unreliable or unpredictable energy supply source. Add feeder transmission line expenses, firming - back up generators and storage, and upgrading of the main transmission grid lines to cope with intermittent energy and reverse direction supply from the power station network the main grid was designed to be energised from, and renewables apart from hydro are a very expensive, not cost effective, electricity price upwards driver mess.
Run a small closed grid with wind and solar with batteries, but a back up generator is always necessary. Try to run worlds largest interconnected grid and, as AEMO and others now admit, major problems are developing in maintaining grid stability, and containing prices for electricity.
Add EV and without tens of billions of dollars of upgrading and adding generators that too would end in failure.
The SA battery is for maintaining SA grid stability for a short time until diesel and gas generators take over. That battery in terms of energy storage needed to operate even the SA grid is inadequate by a huge margin. The quoted capacity of several thousands of dwellings is not impressive, domestic demand is a small segment of total demand on grid baseload electricity everywhere, and including SA.
Consider 30,000 MW of electricity and compare to SA battery. No wonder SA and now VIC have Australia's highest electricity pricing.
-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 28th of September 2019 10:17:37 AM
Knight said
10:22 AM Sep 28, 2019
Mariner30 wrote:
Not car, 4WD or truck related, But there is a interesting read in the current issue of the Wooden Boat magazine about a electric motor powered wooden runabout built here in Tas, Dunno if there is a online platform for it but the boat's name is " Zelectra"
Germany built a solar-battery powered small catamaran to sail around the world, very impressive, big cost.
It sailed part of the way but encountered problems of not being powerful enough to sail into the wind or cope with very rough conditions, and suffered range problems.
A pilot only around the world solar-battery powered aircraft was not successful and failed to complete the mission.
New technology is great, but not for sale before a practical solution for all end users. And on small scale applications, mine vehicles for example, or factory where the company I managed had some electric forklift trucks twenty years ago, ok.
T1 Terry said
11:08 AM Sep 28, 2019
The battery is not there to power the grid as such, it is there to hold the grid up. If the grid goes down so does all power generation, otherwise there are massive spikes and frequency irregularities. The big battery holds the grid voltage and frequency stable, that is its job, then all the wind, solar farms and roof top solar can stay connected and continue to generate as usual. Can you count on one hand when the wind didn't blow along the coast or across big flat planes and the sun didn't shine during high energy demand times .... think seriously about it before you answer, the Australian coast line is a very big area and the area for solar arrays is even bigger. Now what about wave and tidal power along with current flow generators, when the waves don't splash on the shore, the tides no longer rise and fall and the East Coast current stops, we have a tad more to worry about than hydro and coal fired power stations. If we didn't already have huge power generation excess, how could we use Tasmania as a battery or even consider Snowy 2.1 or what ever Scomo wants to call it, or water pumping from unused quarries and mines for storage generation. They are just big batteries, but very inefficient big batteries that take a long time to establish and will be expensive to maintain.
As far as the diesel generator, read here and read far enough to see why they were switched on, bet you never saw that on the commercial news channels or papers either www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-24/back-up-generators-turned-on-in-sa-to-deal-with-extreme-heat/10747886
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
11:17 AM Sep 28, 2019
Knight wrote:
Mariner30 wrote:
Not car, 4WD or truck related, But there is a interesting read in the current issue of the Wooden Boat magazine about a electric motor powered wooden runabout built here in Tas, Dunno if there is a online platform for it but the boat's name is " Zelectra"
Germany built a solar-battery powered small catamaran to sail around the world, very impressive, big cost.
It sailed part of the way but encountered problems of not being powerful enough to sail into the wind or cope with very rough conditions, and suffered range problems.
A pilot only around the world solar-battery powered aircraft was not successful and failed to complete the mission.
New technology is great, but not for sale before a practical solution for all end users. And on small scale applications, mine vehicles for example, or factory where the company I managed had some electric forklift trucks twenty years ago, ok.
What is it with this "fake anti renewable news" that keeps springing up? Someone is sponsoring it and it seems no one questions it. I'm in the process or wiring up a full electric (including 2 electric outboard motors) at the Mannum marina now, so hardly cutting edge stuff.
The mimes use electric vehicle now, are you saying they don't know what they are doing? Either stay up with the real facts or stop spinning nonsense for what ever reason you are doing it, you aren't improving your credibility in the slightest.
T1 Terry
Knight said
03:16 PM Sep 28, 2019
Terry, my electric lawnmower works well, but it takes much more time to recharge than my petrol model takes to refill the tank, and the tank is not a replacement part like a battery is.
Also, my petrol mower on a full tank runs for a much longer period.
I recommend that you read what I have posted rather than accusing me of what I did not write.
Electric motors for small boats have been available for years, work well, but again limited by battery.
-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 28th of September 2019 03:17:37 PM
T1 Terry said
03:44 PM Sep 28, 2019
Funny way to look at it, you can swap out a charged battery and restart mowing a lot faster than you can refill one with fuel. Doesn't matter that much how long it takes to recharge the spare battery as long as you have enough batteries to finish the lawn. My Ego hedge trimmer battery outlasts my ability to continuously cut the hedge and the battery is recharged far quicker than I am :lol: I'd love to get a battery mower, but the electric one hasn't died yet so a hard sell on the financial adviser the need for a battery mower. The battery chain saw is a marvel, starts every time, again, the battery out lasts me as far as stamina and recovers its energy a lot faster than I do.
My plug in battery car recharges from my motorhome solar/batteries/inverter so doesn't put any strain on the grid, or the roads having fuel delivered to the service station. The people in the servo don't think it's that great, but you can't please everyone.
As far as your call regarding the SA big battery and the diesel generator, did you read the links, the generator was used to support the Victorian grid, not the South Australian grid, renewables are working fine over here and have been for quite a while. What the east coast grid needs is to follow South Australia's lead and put in a number of big batteries to hold the grid up and smooth it out. The battery doesn't power the grid, it was never intended to power the grid, it is there to support the grid.
The east coast grid had a generator just to maintain the frequency for a long time, is that still the case? A battery and inverters is a lot better method and would free up that generators output capacity if needed, wouldn't that be a lot smarter thinking?
If South Australia can run 100% renewables and actually sell excess generation to its poorly organised neighbour states , no gas fired power stations or coal fired power stations here, why do the eastern states claim it can't be done? Drop the inter connectors between SA and the other states and see who's lights go out .......We don't mind being the east coasts back up power supply, but don't try to tell us that renewables don't work while you are using renewable power to keep you lights on and the air con running, that is just silly talk.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
03:51 PM Sep 28, 2019
Knight wrote:
Terry, my electric lawnmower works well, but it takes much more time to recharge than my petrol model takes to refill the tank, and the tank is not a replacement part like a battery is.
Also, my petrol mower on a full tank runs for a much longer period.
I recommend that you read what I have posted rather than accusing me of what I did not write.
Electric motors for small boats have been available for years, work well, but again limited by battery.
-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 28th of September 2019 03:17:37 PM
Not limited by battery, limited by generation ability. 13kw of solar powers a 10kW motor as long as the sun shines and has some left over to cover when a cloud passes over as well as powering the other gear on the boat. The battery just acts as a buffer between power generation and power demand, that is how a well set up system works.
Ships on the ocean sailed the seas for a long time before propellers moved them through the water. Solar sails give the benefit of both power types, no need for fossil fuel, just the stuff nature puts out there for free.
T1 Terry
Knight said
04:05 PM Sep 28, 2019
So explain why the AEMO "capacity factor" for renewables other than hydro is +- 30% of design or nameplate capacity, sometimes called installed capacity.
When the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine .... clouds, high temperature daytime also.
You are moving way off track from electricity generation on a grand scale, producing baseload electricity and capacity for peak demand periods.
A caravan closed system with solar and batteries works quite well, the larger the scale of operations, as in a major grid, then the unreliable, intermittent supply wind and solar are inefficient and not cost effective, needing back up generators/storage.
When you have an electric-solar boat that can be used commercially get back to us. In between time have fun playing with developing technology.
T1 Terry said
05:03 PM Sep 28, 2019
The electric vehicle grid will actually help stabilise the grid, not over load it, I think that was where all this started from wasn't it. Each charging station will have its own battery bank if there isn't substantial grid stability already in that area. Each vehicle plugged in is a variable load, if the power isn't there then it doesn't charge.
Name plate capacity is a strange one isn't it, the name plate capacity of any generator isn't the continuous output it can produce when factored into the grid, it is how much that particular seller wants to sell at the price he negotiated. Solar and wind is by far the cheapest so it always supplies the grid first, no gas fire, diesel powered or coal fired power station can compete on price. Add a battery pack to the solar/wind and now you have a faster spin up supply than any available on the grid now. even hydro would not be able to spin up in a fraction of the time the battery can kick in if needed to cover gaps.
It is quite understandable why the coal and gas generators or putting up such a smoke screen, they will no longer be able to hold the grid to ransom to get the high sell rate they have been able to in the past.
I can't see any genuine business model ever getting off the ground these days for a coal fired or even gas fired power station, maybe pumped hydro could get a bit of a foot in for peaking power, but once there are enough batteries out there on the grid even those will have trouble competing with the combination of renewable and batteries.
The SA power mob aren't putting out big $$ to subsides household battery installs because they are nice people and want a feel good buzz from it, they plan to use that storage any and every chance they get if it means forcing the supply cost down as well as smoothing the mini grid effect that roof top solar can create.
How long before we see wind/electric/solar boats commercially, they already do if the definition of commercial is to operate to earn money, but even big ships are moving that way www.euronews.com/living/2019/05/22/the-shipping-industry-may-finally-be-turning-to-wind-power soon enough for you?
T1 Terry
Whenarewethere said
07:32 PM Sep 28, 2019
I agree, electric vehicles will stabilise the grid. All vehicles plugged in will network & if you need your car charged quickly you pay a premium. If it is not urgent it will be charged slower or when there is an excess. If the grid is short on power the vehicles can shove a bit back in & you get a credit. Easy!
People are simply getting on & doing it as we have done on a smaller scale in our carvans & cars powering fridges etc, just a bigger scale, while politicians still have lacquered lumps of coal it their hands!
Mariner30 said
08:53 PM Sep 28, 2019
Just some details of Zelectra,
A 20ft barrelback timber hull ( King Billy, Huon and CeleryTop pine )
Built at the Wooden Boat Centre in Franklin Tas,
Electric motor is a Yasa-400 90kw motor powered by 72 lth-ferric ph battey cells,
At 5.5 kts batteries last 10 hrs with 2 pass,
9 kts 2 hrs
13 kts 1 hr
19 kts 30 mins
With 6 pass max speed 20 kts
Top speed otherwise is 27 kts...20 mins and just the driver on board,
Cost for this beautiful boat and propulsion unit was "around 300k" according to the article ,
A good part of which would have been for the construction costs of the boat,
Custom built WBC boats are pricey...
My interest isn't really the power unit but the timber boat itself,
Just thought it might be interesting for someone,
You can find the boat on Youtube
Knight said
01:46 PM Sep 29, 2019
To begin with, please consider the essential electricity grid baseload demand and where the consumers are, domestic being a minor consumer.
Already after a decade of RET and subsidies at the best of times, and best is not often achieved, wind and solar is not reliable, the grid intake of energy from unreliable sources is around 10% of baseload.
Add peak demand periods.
What are people going to drive while their expensive EV is plugged in to stabilise the grid (as if they could)? The SA battery is a momentary stabiliser just providing enough time for the backup system diesel and gas generators to start up. No such stabilising was needed when SA had enough power station based reliable generators. And now there is discussion about a multi-billion upgrading of all of the grids interconnected in Australia because they were not designed to deal with intermittent bursts of energy interrupting the power station generators and making them less efficient.
The expenses mount along with the transition problems: first the wind and solar farms, add rooftop solar, then in SA grid instability despite the interconnector to VIC where instability is now also becoming a major problem. Then a solution, the battery bank recharged by wind turbines when the energy they produce is not needed. Followed by more back up government owned diesel and gas generators, and thousands of government buildings, business and home generators installed because of the unreliable grid. Now upgrade the grids in all interconnected states and ACT? Australia has already spent in excess of $60 billion on renewable transition, plus shareholder's "farm" investment capital spent.
For a much lower investment expense to taxpayers/consumers upgrading of existing coal fired power stations to High Energy Low Emissions (HELE) technology plus a few new power stations could have been funded.
Solar and wind connected to batteries are expensive and not really cost effective when all costs and comparisons are considered, but the system works as many here know from experience. On a larger scale King Island in Bass Strait has wind turbines and solar panels, and battery storage, but they regularly start the diesel engine generators to avoid loss of power. And it cost more than a connector to the Tasmanian mainland grid.
EV assuming all of our ICEV were replaced by them would result in grid collapse. Of course the fleet would not be replaced in less than a decade or two but the cost to the people would be enormous, via governments and our own expenses.
Last year a Melbourne Port located residential building inquired about provision of 415V 3-phase EV recharging points and were advised that the local grid would not support it without major upgrading, and then the building would need new electrical wiring as well as charging points. It was not confined to the one building, the inquiry revealed that on a whole suburb basis there would be major upgrading required.
And that ignores replacing liquid fuel service stations with enough recharging stations for EV. Imagine holiday periods when EV demand for charging points peaked. And even if recharging was 80% within 30 minutes. And range, road tests by honest journalists revealed that theoretical battery capacity range needs to be reduced by about 30% to cover average passenger and luggage loading, road speed (highway speed consumers much more energy than suburban road speeds), air conditioning on or off, lights, headwinds, etc. A $50,000 Nissan Leaf will in the real world achieve about or just over 200 kilometres fully charged. Even if the price came down to ICEV Nissan equivalent at less than half price the range would be more than double. So I have no doubt that an EV for a city person could be practical, but expensive and inconvenient because of recharging times and messing around. On the other hand a Hybrid would be and they are acceptable, ask a city taxi cab driver.
It must be noted that consumers are not driving EV development, government and influenced by the UN IPCC is the motivator. And EV charged from coal and gas power stations is not saving emissions, and noting that burning fuel in an ICEV is more efficient than producing energy using coal or gas (or biomass) as fuel. It's a joke, Joyce!
As I posted before, my electric lawnmower is good, more than twice the price of an ICE mower and in the long run replacing battery will wipe out fuel cost savings. And recharging is much slower than refuelling. Electric boat outboard motors are popular, but limited in range and with battery weight to be considered, and its replacement.
Unfortunately in technology there is most often no one solution for all purposes. EV is in that category. Wind and solar farms are toys when compared to power stations and add all the costs for the add on technologies, far from being cost effective. And then what about disposing of rotor blades, solar panels: landfill? Environmentally acceptable, not. Up to 25 years, often less than 20 years effective operating lifetimes. Power stations can be operated for 80 years or longer. Yes, for accounting purposes, tax write off of assets, power stations are usually listed as 50 year operations.
By the way, the federal government has announced the end of RET and the subsidies (not business tax deductions for expenses incurred in earning taxable profit all businesses can use) and already the new projects list is shrinking. Without taxpayer/consumer support subsidies shareholders back away from the unreliable energy technologies. But the investors have been happy to ask for "firming" to support their for profit businesses, backup generators, batteries, etc., despite being subsidised to supply energy to the grid. And now they want the grids upgraded?
For me Hybrid technology and soon added Hydrogen technology is the future of transport, but without government picking the winners and losers please. Free market capitalism is what produced our national prosperity.
Knight said
03:12 PM Sep 29, 2019
The AEMO allocates "capacity factor" to all wind farms and solar farms, that being the most likely, on average capacity to delivery energy over a long period in time to the grid. They are plus or minus 30 per cent of their design capacity - nameplate - or sometimes called installed capacity. In other words those farms are on average capable of supplying 30 MW if design rating is 100 MW. Liddell Power Station NSW has 4 generators of 500 MW capacity each.
AEMO is now reducing the energy supplied by wind and solar to account for loss in transmission line to the main grid, loss increases with distance and type of generator. So 30 percent capacity factor might only be 27 per cent I understand.
The SA battery is capable of a very small compared to national grid baseload energy level delivery, in short bursts in between recharging. No way it could help the VIC grid.
"The awarding of a 129 MWh battery contract to Tesla is big news for South Australia, as it will be able to instantly provide power to the grid when needed, as well as taking out any fluctuations (unreliable, hard to predict, intermittent operation) in generating capacity from surrounding wind farms and PV installations. The battery will supply close to 10 per cent of the state's energy needs for almost an hour."
And batty and back ups were not necessary when power stations were the only generators.
-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 29th of September 2019 04:43:37 PM
Jaahn said
08:31 AM Sep 30, 2019
Hi
Yes there are problems and also solutions, even ones' yet to be discovered. It reminds me of an old Aussie poem written many many years ago, published exactly 100 years ago. Knockers are not new !! My apologies to John O'Brien for the barstardisation Jaahn
"Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan In accents most forlorn Outside the van ere brekky began One frosty Sunday morn.
The campers all stood about, Coat-collars to the ears, And talked of batteries towing, power As they had done for years.
"Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan, " If the sun dont come this week."
"Theyre singin out for power," he said, "And all the batteries dry." The congregation scratched its head, And gazed around the sky.
And shine it did, in Gods good time: And sun came in to fold A mantle oer the roofs sublime Of blue and white and shine.
And, oh, the smiles on every face, As happy lad and lass
did smile a-while
when using ere they want.
While round the camp in clothes genteel Discoursed the men of mark, And each man squatted on his heel, And chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man, There will, without a doubt; Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of September 2019 09:18:29 AM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of September 2019 12:16:41 PM
Greg 1 said
11:32 AM Sep 30, 2019
Currently EV's are not suitable for towing a large van around the country.
This is not because electric motors wont do the job, in fact they are capable of doing it better than ICE's due to having maximum torque from 0 RPM.
It is the terrible range they have when anything is attached on the back.
There is a youtube video of a father and son who set off across several states in the US in their Tesla SUV towing a smallish camper trailer weighing about 1000kgs.
The range decreased to such an extent due to towing and the charging times so long, that they gave up in the end and got a family member to meet them in a Landcruiser so that they could get to the meeting they were going to on time.
In the hills the range deteriorated to something like 80 to 90 miles and the charging was done at Tesla supercharging stations.
Three things must happen before EV's become a viable alternative for towing.
1. Battery technology needs to improve vastly to improve range and be less affected by hooking something on the back. Keep in mind that many of us tow up to 3 times the weight and the frontal area of the one in the Youtube video.
2. The ability to rapid charge needs to improve dramatically to make it practical.
3. The infrastructure needs to be in place in remote areas to enable charging to happen, and I don't mean sitting for hours with a generator or portable solar hooked up to refuel the vehicle either. It has to be as convenient as fueling an ICE.
Whilst pure electric cars make some sense for commuter vehicles in our cities, I see other technology such as hydrogen fuel cell vehicles being far more practical for remote travel and possibly for towing. They are also not a burden on the grid infrastructure either which is a major issue with pure EV's.
T1 Terry said
01:07 PM Sep 30, 2019
Battery technology is improving faster than many realise. This yr the norm is a 400km range, 80% recharge in under 1 hr for a total range of 700km per day. say that was halved when towing, so 350km per day, do many of the members here travel more than 350km per day towing their van?
A Tesla is a luxury sports oriented vehicle, a bit like towing the van with a fully tricked up Ford turbo 6cyl petrol engine or a Holden supercharged V8. All the power in the world to do the job, but certainly not economical.
The are battery/electric vehicle designed for towing 3.5 tonne or more in production now, expect to be available sometime next yr. As these will be the first of their kind, it will depend on the uptake as to whether more research goes into improving them where weak spots are apparent, or if they decide there isn't a market and change to hybrid powered models.
Hydrogen fuel cells in place of batteries or as a supplementary power source, maybe, I think they will be too bulky to really become mainstream for an EV, but they could become mainstream for out back charging stations as an aux to solar charging.
T1 Terry
Valkie said
01:35 PM Sep 30, 2019
While the grubberment continue to get 75 cents in the dollar for fuel.
While multinationals can sell oil at high prices
While the worlds economy is balanced on the sale of oil
While little funds are dedicated to finding better systems
While politicians continue to get kickbacks from petrochemical companies
We will be driving polluting cars.
Only when adequate funding is directed at better technology
Only when the oil runs out
Only when too many people start dying
Only when the multinationals see profit
Only when the grubberment finds a way to tax the sun.
We will get our alternative fuel or electric powered vehicles.
Its a greedy world, led by greedy men and women, advised by greedy corporations and multinationals.
One day, perhaps, I will see affordable and functional alternatives to hydrocarbon fuel.
But I doubt that I will see it in the 30 years I have left.
It would be wonderful, but I just cannot see it happening.
Peter_n_Margaret said
01:40 PM Sep 30, 2019
It will happen whether you want it to or not and in a fraction of the time that you expect.
Cheers,
Peter
Knight said
02:51 PM Sep 30, 2019
Terry, a few months ago I entered the motorway at Goulburn NSW heading south, no caravan in tow, and set cruise control on a real 110 KMH, 117 KMH on the speedo.
A Tesla S pulled up behind and was using my 4WD's slipstream, I assume that was the reason for driving so closely behind my vehicle. After several minutes we came to a road construction zone and 80 kmh and then 40 kmh. The Tesla EV dropped back with a few vehicles in between it and my vehicle. Back in the 110 KMH zone I returned gradually speeding up to 110 KMH and the Tesla soon caught up and resumed slipstreaming.
Some distance down the road we came to another hilly section with a B-Double climbing up at about 90 KMH, for reason I did not understand the Tesla pulled out and came alongside my vehicle, and annoyingly stayed there until over the hill, and then it passed the truck and slowed, I overtook it again after a while at 110 KMH. It again commenced slipstreaming. After nearly 20 minutes the Tesla dropped back, and further back until it was disappearing.
EV energy usage increases with speed and climbing hills. I understand that highway cruising long distance is best done at 90 kmh or less. And the range also depends on usage of energy for air conditioning or heating, load on board (people and luggage), windscreen wiper use, etc. Typically a driver should calculate or estimate range on highway by discounting at least 30% from theoretical or factory range estimate. And that would be lightly loaded.
Many motoring journalists are now reporting that EV is best suited to suburban use where regenerative braking is most often applicable to put some energy back into the battery pack, and where road speeds are lower than highway speeds. An NRMA Nissan Leaf test in 2018 with four aboard reported useful range of just over 200 kms, and returning to Sydney via the coast the driver switched air conditioning off when concerned about reaching the next recharging station. The new Leaf has a retail price over $50,000 plus costs like charging equipment and home recharging point, unless standard 240 volt power point and many more charging hours is acceptable.
I agree that change (forced by governments, notable European Union - Euro Standards) is underway, but that does not reflect a market ready to accept high prices and inconvenience of range and recharging on the road. If free market capitalist system was allowed to work as it does, I doubt that a transition would take place quickly, at least not until EV is equivalent to ICEV in all respects.
In my opinion EV will probably not be the main choice, more likely Hybrid technology (engine powered generator charging battery or hydrogen fuel cell). EV maybe, when the price is comparable to ICEV, for city folk.
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:17 PM Sep 30, 2019
Knight wrote:
EV energy usage increases with speed and climbing hills. I understand that highway cruising long distance is best done at 90 kmh or less. And the range also depends on usage of energy for air conditioning or heating, load on board (people and luggage), windscreen wiper use, etc. Typically a driver should calculate or estimate range on highway by discounting at least 30% from theoretical or factory range estimate. And that would be lightly loaded.
All of that applies to every vehicle on the road today, yesterday, tomorrow and in 100 years time irrespective of what the energy source is.
It is called PHYSICS.
Cheers,
Peter
Bagmaker said
03:59 PM Sep 30, 2019
Knight,
the only way you are going to out-do a Tesla in some old Toyota or Datsun or whatever 4wd is if you are towing though a river up a hill, loaded with camping gear.
No possibly way on a freeway. Period.
Check one out for real, they will blow your pants off.
more likely the "driver" was asleep or otherwise occupied.
Hi
Interesting article about an Aussie Victorian company getting into the electric delivery vehicle in a serious way.
https://www.goauto.com.au/news/industry-news/aussie-ev-powertrain-firm-on-fast-charge-forward/2019-09-24/80093.html
Jaahn
PS It would be a pain for the knockers to start the usual winge about how will these tow my van around !!
I fitted an SEA 1300W PSW inverter to the OKA in 2004. It has been faultless.
Cheers,
Peter
There was another electric vehicle company building electric buses in Victoria, they were just about to put the service buses on the road and govt decided there were more votes to had supporting a new venture than supporting the new venture they supported before. So their funding shifted to these people.
The battery packs sold off very quickly but they couldn't sell the electric buses. Now they have stripped them out and are selling the 4 speed computer shift gearbox with computer, the electric motors with computer and VFD and the whole lot combined. I am in negotiations at the moment to buy the motor/gearbox and all the associated electronics to do a conversion in my big bus project. Things seem to have stalled at the moment so I'm wondering if this mob has bought up what they had in a single allotment and this is why I haven't heard any more from them. Not a game changer for me, I already have a motor and controller for the bus project, but one all set up ready to do would have made life very easy.
There are also start ups in Adelaide and Brisbane, I think they are aiming at the light delivery van market for couriers etc. Of course there is also the Tesla owned mob that are building prime movers with gas turbines and small battery packs that appear to be lighter than the equivalent prime mover producing the same torque at the drive wheels. It is all about the torque to the road, not what the engine can develop, the voltage is to limiting factor as far as speed.
Something I have toyed with for many yrs, electric drive to every wheel rather than the 4 wheels on the prime mover doing all the work.
50kW at the wheel on the 4 prime mover wheels and another 25kW on each steer wheel, 250kW on the ground for the prime mover. That is plenty for around town deliveries and shuffling trailers when either at the depot or at the trailer exchange.
Add a dolly for a road train and 50kW per wheel, 300kW plus the 250kW the prime mover has, 550kW available from the moment the wheels start to turn, nothing on the road in the trucking game at the moment can match that. Thing about it, instant torque to pull out and over take so no more of that thing where they need to wind up to pass an RV. No more crawling off the mark and shifting a dozen gears when trying to take off on a hill. No more run up required to get a road train over a dirt road climb because a lot more wheels are driving and spreading that 550kW at 50kW per wheel, no wheel spin problems. Braking is the same, no more wheel lock ups, all the drive wheels become regen devices up to 50kW per wheel, but only as long as they are still turning, so no compression lock up and the regen can absorb a lot more speed energy than the brake lining can turn into heat for a lot longer, pull up straight, no tyre damage and would stop in a lot shorter distance than locked wheels can. Add another dolly, now there is 3 full size trailers and 850kW available. It would probably spell the end of the B double and B triple and the quad we sometimes see out there, the company gets to use any semi trailer because they all will couple up to a dolly.
Now add a remote control to drive the dolly at say 5km/h. Simply drop the dolly in the yard or at the customers drop off zone, the load controller can now drive the trailer into the dock for unloading and out to another dock for reloading, then back out to the pick up area. The next truck through sinply picks up the dolly and plugs in and away they go. Loose a plug coupling, the dolly goes into 25% regen and the prime mover now has to drag it off the road to check what has happened. No jack knife because the trailer/s are in regen so effectively braking.
Sure lends it self to autonomous drive prime movers eh No more memorials on the side of the road for a trucker who sacrificed themselves for their pay packet. They would still be needed to drive the dollies around the trailer exchange, do the paperwork or button pressing as to which hauling company was dragging which dolly so just who gets paid for that part of the haul. They still need drivers that understand logistics to organise loads in each trailer and who to contact to collect that trailer, but they still get to go home each night to their family.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 26th of September 2019 12:16:10 PM
If you look here http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5721 you can see the progress of someone who is already converting their gas guzzler to full electric so they can go on the road full time fuel cost free.
T1 Terry
The world's largest interconnected electricity grid covers TAS-VIC-SA-NSW/ACT-QLD.
Right now the authorities are working overtime to keep it energised and cope with essential "baseload" demand ... like the town water supply pressurised with pumps sufficiently to maintain pressure to meet normal demand ... the electricity grid supplies all consumers, domestic is a small segment by comparison with government/commercial/industrial demand. And of course peak demand requires more generation capacity.
To recharge a fleet of EV replacing our IECV would require a major upgrading of generating capacity and transmission lines. already the existing transmission lines designed for energy main from power stations, including about 10% hydro and about 10% renewables intermittently.
In the UK an electrical engineering organisation advised the government that, theoretically, to cope with an all EV fleet replacement would require the whole of Scotland in land area and offshore of wind turbines. Add "firming" or feeder transmission lines to the main grid and back up generators and even storage of energy that intermittent operation and unreliable wind generators must have.
For Australia the cost just to provide the energy supply would be prohibitively expensive. So ask why the push for EV, considering that man made global warming caused by CO2 is a political hoax?
Answer has been published, but many ignored it or failed to understand. For example: $300 million gifted to fleet leasing firms by the federal government to promote EV usage by fleet operators. Tesla mentioning a buy-back system with second-hand Tesla EV becoming taxi cabs, autonomous operation. Others have mentioned community autonomous buses. The aim is no privately owned transportation. And like for some wealthy people in Communist China, enjoy capitalism but stay for life in a walled district with travel outside permits needed. After all the Greens and Glibalist fellow travellers want far less impact on Earth.
No argument that EV could be a replacement for ICEV, assuming that recharging time and convenience of stations matched liquid fuels, and EV were no more expensive. But the big issue is energy supply and availability.
A few mths back we had one of the chief electrical engineers for SA power give a talk at the SA branch meeting regarding the integration of electric vehicles into the energy grid. Now keep in mind South Australia is totally renewable powered and sells power to the other states. They have already introduced an off peak rate during the day designed mostly for electric vehicle stations and battery backed house system to take advantage of so they can sell the abundant power available from roof top solar that at the moment they have difficulty utilising. There is a reason household systems must be registered with the energy supply authority and limited to 5kW inverters, until there is some where for that energy to go then they have to limit what can come in. They do that by actually controlling the inverter on each house so they can throttle back the amount being pushed into the grid. If SA has more power than it can use, sells it to the states that don't have the power generation they require, yet still can't fully utilise all the generation capabilities ir has now before the next lot of big batteries join the grid, why can't the eastern states get it together? Not far to travel to SA to see how a grid generation system should be set up eh?
The only reason the east coast states are struggling is because the voters there are brain washed into believing the big battery doesn't work. If you don't believe me, do you remember this being on the news at all in the east coast states? reneweconomy.com.au/how-the-tesla-big-battery-kept-the-lights-on-in-south-australia-20393/ They aren't likely to put that out there for the voters to read while trying to sell the need for a new coal fired power station and explain away why they pay big $$ to the other coal fired power station in the form of cheap subsidised coal to keep them from shutting up shop ...... Time the east coast voters realised they are being lied to by those that have a vested interest in coal fired power stations.
When do you think we will see street protests demanding a big battery plan for each state to keep the lights on?
In a way I'm sorry I left NSW as far as potential business opportunities, off grid or battery back up systems that keep more than just a few lights on in the house, but rather make the whole house UPS capable. That is what we do for RV's and houses on the grid fringe now even here in SA, can you imagine the work we'd have if we were still in NSW? The advantage of living in a state that once had a forward thinking state govt far out weighs the losses, I'm confident the voters here aren't blind to the realities of life and this state will again go into the future with pollies interested in the improvement of the state rather than their bottom line.
T1 Terry
Terry, I could change your story and aim it back at you.
There are no "denialists", that is a Church of Climate Change description, scientologists attempting to belittle any opposition to their doomsday predictions, extinction, emergency, etc.
Sceptics like me understand that climate changing is natural Earth Cycles, and has been since time began. In the land we call Australia the climate zone changed about 130,000 years ago from wet to dry conditions and the rainforests retreated to be replaced by bushland that thrives on fire for regeneration, and tolerates long droughts. In between times there was an Ice Age and later a Little Ice Age, the latter ended a few hundred years ago. Caused by a decline in solar activities, a Maunder Minimum that is underway again at this time.
Like it or note, wind and solar is intermittent, unreliable or unpredictable energy supply source. Add feeder transmission line expenses, firming - back up generators and storage, and upgrading of the main transmission grid lines to cope with intermittent energy and reverse direction supply from the power station network the main grid was designed to be energised from, and renewables apart from hydro are a very expensive, not cost effective, electricity price upwards driver mess.
Run a small closed grid with wind and solar with batteries, but a back up generator is always necessary. Try to run worlds largest interconnected grid and, as AEMO and others now admit, major problems are developing in maintaining grid stability, and containing prices for electricity.
Add EV and without tens of billions of dollars of upgrading and adding generators that too would end in failure.
The SA battery is for maintaining SA grid stability for a short time until diesel and gas generators take over. That battery in terms of energy storage needed to operate even the SA grid is inadequate by a huge margin. The quoted capacity of several thousands of dwellings is not impressive, domestic demand is a small segment of total demand on grid baseload electricity everywhere, and including SA.
Consider 30,000 MW of electricity and compare to SA battery. No wonder SA and now VIC have Australia's highest electricity pricing.
-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 28th of September 2019 10:17:37 AM
Germany built a solar-battery powered small catamaran to sail around the world, very impressive, big cost.
It sailed part of the way but encountered problems of not being powerful enough to sail into the wind or cope with very rough conditions, and suffered range problems.
A pilot only around the world solar-battery powered aircraft was not successful and failed to complete the mission.
New technology is great, but not for sale before a practical solution for all end users. And on small scale applications, mine vehicles for example, or factory where the company I managed had some electric forklift trucks twenty years ago, ok.
As far as the diesel generator, read here and read far enough to see why they were switched on, bet you never saw that on the commercial news channels or papers either www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-24/back-up-generators-turned-on-in-sa-to-deal-with-extreme-heat/10747886
T1 Terry
The first solar power yacht sailed around the world yrs ago, 2012 actually, https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=CquOXezCK8Xhz7sP8_iciA4&q=solar+powered+yacht+first+around+the+world&oq=Solar+power+yacht+first+around&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i22i29i30.5417.38847..41856...0.2..0.307.7509.0j3j28j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i356j0i71j0i273j0i67j0j0i131j0i131i67j0i131i273j0i10j0i10i30j0i8i30j0i22i10i30j0i22i30j0i13j0i13i30j33i160j33i10.iqVJ_MwgwLA#spf=1569633072859
What is it with this "fake anti renewable news" that keeps springing up? Someone is sponsoring it and it seems no one questions it. I'm in the process or wiring up a full electric (including 2 electric outboard motors) at the Mannum marina now, so hardly cutting edge stuff.
The mimes use electric vehicle now, are you saying they don't know what they are doing? Either stay up with the real facts or stop spinning nonsense for what ever reason you are doing it, you aren't improving your credibility in the slightest.
T1 Terry
Terry, my electric lawnmower works well, but it takes much more time to recharge than my petrol model takes to refill the tank, and the tank is not a replacement part like a battery is.
Also, my petrol mower on a full tank runs for a much longer period.
I recommend that you read what I have posted rather than accusing me of what I did not write.
Electric motors for small boats have been available for years, work well, but again limited by battery.
-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 28th of September 2019 03:17:37 PM
My plug in battery car recharges from my motorhome solar/batteries/inverter so doesn't put any strain on the grid, or the roads having fuel delivered to the service station. The people in the servo don't think it's that great, but you can't please everyone.
As far as your call regarding the SA big battery and the diesel generator, did you read the links, the generator was used to support the Victorian grid, not the South Australian grid, renewables are working fine over here and have been for quite a while. What the east coast grid needs is to follow South Australia's lead and put in a number of big batteries to hold the grid up and smooth it out. The battery doesn't power the grid, it was never intended to power the grid, it is there to support the grid.
The east coast grid had a generator just to maintain the frequency for a long time, is that still the case? A battery and inverters is a lot better method and would free up that generators output capacity if needed, wouldn't that be a lot smarter thinking?
If South Australia can run 100% renewables and actually sell excess generation to its poorly organised neighbour states , no gas fired power stations or coal fired power stations here, why do the eastern states claim it can't be done? Drop the inter connectors between SA and the other states and see who's lights go out .......We don't mind being the east coasts back up power supply, but don't try to tell us that renewables don't work while you are using renewable power to keep you lights on and the air con running, that is just silly talk.
T1 Terry
Not limited by battery, limited by generation ability. 13kw of solar powers a 10kW motor as long as the sun shines and has some left over to cover when a cloud passes over as well as powering the other gear on the boat. The battery just acts as a buffer between power generation and power demand, that is how a well set up system works.
Ships on the ocean sailed the seas for a long time before propellers moved them through the water. Solar sails give the benefit of both power types, no need for fossil fuel, just the stuff nature puts out there for free.
T1 Terry
When the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine .... clouds, high temperature daytime also.
You are moving way off track from electricity generation on a grand scale, producing baseload electricity and capacity for peak demand periods.
A caravan closed system with solar and batteries works quite well, the larger the scale of operations, as in a major grid, then the unreliable, intermittent supply wind and solar are inefficient and not cost effective, needing back up generators/storage.
When you have an electric-solar boat that can be used commercially get back to us. In between time have fun playing with developing technology.
Name plate capacity is a strange one isn't it, the name plate capacity of any generator isn't the continuous output it can produce when factored into the grid, it is how much that particular seller wants to sell at the price he negotiated. Solar and wind is by far the cheapest so it always supplies the grid first, no gas fire, diesel powered or coal fired power station can compete on price. Add a battery pack to the solar/wind and now you have a faster spin up supply than any available on the grid now. even hydro would not be able to spin up in a fraction of the time the battery can kick in if needed to cover gaps.
It is quite understandable why the coal and gas generators or putting up such a smoke screen, they will no longer be able to hold the grid to ransom to get the high sell rate they have been able to in the past.
I can't see any genuine business model ever getting off the ground these days for a coal fired or even gas fired power station, maybe pumped hydro could get a bit of a foot in for peaking power, but once there are enough batteries out there on the grid even those will have trouble competing with the combination of renewable and batteries.
The SA power mob aren't putting out big $$ to subsides household battery installs because they are nice people and want a feel good buzz from it, they plan to use that storage any and every chance they get if it means forcing the supply cost down as well as smoothing the mini grid effect that roof top solar can create.
How long before we see wind/electric/solar boats commercially, they already do if the definition of commercial is to operate to earn money, but even big ships are moving that way www.euronews.com/living/2019/05/22/the-shipping-industry-may-finally-be-turning-to-wind-power soon enough for you?
T1 Terry
I agree, electric vehicles will stabilise the grid. All vehicles plugged in will network & if you need your car charged quickly you pay a premium. If it is not urgent it will be charged slower or when there is an excess. If the grid is short on power the vehicles can shove a bit back in & you get a credit. Easy!
People are simply getting on & doing it as we have done on a smaller scale in our carvans & cars powering fridges etc, just a bigger scale, while politicians still have lacquered lumps of coal it their hands!
Already after a decade of RET and subsidies at the best of times, and best is not often achieved, wind and solar is not reliable, the grid intake of energy from unreliable sources is around 10% of baseload.
Add peak demand periods.
What are people going to drive while their expensive EV is plugged in to stabilise the grid (as if they could)? The SA battery is a momentary stabiliser just providing enough time for the backup system diesel and gas generators to start up. No such stabilising was needed when SA had enough power station based reliable generators. And now there is discussion about a multi-billion upgrading of all of the grids interconnected in Australia because they were not designed to deal with intermittent bursts of energy interrupting the power station generators and making them less efficient.
The expenses mount along with the transition problems: first the wind and solar farms, add rooftop solar, then in SA grid instability despite the interconnector to VIC where instability is now also becoming a major problem. Then a solution, the battery bank recharged by wind turbines when the energy they produce is not needed. Followed by more back up government owned diesel and gas generators, and thousands of government buildings, business and home generators installed because of the unreliable grid. Now upgrade the grids in all interconnected states and ACT? Australia has already spent in excess of $60 billion on renewable transition, plus shareholder's "farm" investment capital spent.
For a much lower investment expense to taxpayers/consumers upgrading of existing coal fired power stations to High Energy Low Emissions (HELE) technology plus a few new power stations could have been funded.
Solar and wind connected to batteries are expensive and not really cost effective when all costs and comparisons are considered, but the system works as many here know from experience. On a larger scale King Island in Bass Strait has wind turbines and solar panels, and battery storage, but they regularly start the diesel engine generators to avoid loss of power. And it cost more than a connector to the Tasmanian mainland grid.
EV assuming all of our ICEV were replaced by them would result in grid collapse. Of course the fleet would not be replaced in less than a decade or two but the cost to the people would be enormous, via governments and our own expenses.
Last year a Melbourne Port located residential building inquired about provision of 415V 3-phase EV recharging points and were advised that the local grid would not support it without major upgrading, and then the building would need new electrical wiring as well as charging points. It was not confined to the one building, the inquiry revealed that on a whole suburb basis there would be major upgrading required.
And that ignores replacing liquid fuel service stations with enough recharging stations for EV. Imagine holiday periods when EV demand for charging points peaked. And even if recharging was 80% within 30 minutes. And range, road tests by honest journalists revealed that theoretical battery capacity range needs to be reduced by about 30% to cover average passenger and luggage loading, road speed (highway speed consumers much more energy than suburban road speeds), air conditioning on or off, lights, headwinds, etc. A $50,000 Nissan Leaf will in the real world achieve about or just over 200 kilometres fully charged. Even if the price came down to ICEV Nissan equivalent at less than half price the range would be more than double. So I have no doubt that an EV for a city person could be practical, but expensive and inconvenient because of recharging times and messing around. On the other hand a Hybrid would be and they are acceptable, ask a city taxi cab driver.
It must be noted that consumers are not driving EV development, government and influenced by the UN IPCC is the motivator. And EV charged from coal and gas power stations is not saving emissions, and noting that burning fuel in an ICEV is more efficient than producing energy using coal or gas (or biomass) as fuel. It's a joke, Joyce!
As I posted before, my electric lawnmower is good, more than twice the price of an ICE mower and in the long run replacing battery will wipe out fuel cost savings. And recharging is much slower than refuelling. Electric boat outboard motors are popular, but limited in range and with battery weight to be considered, and its replacement.
Unfortunately in technology there is most often no one solution for all purposes. EV is in that category. Wind and solar farms are toys when compared to power stations and add all the costs for the add on technologies, far from being cost effective. And then what about disposing of rotor blades, solar panels: landfill? Environmentally acceptable, not. Up to 25 years, often less than 20 years effective operating lifetimes. Power stations can be operated for 80 years or longer. Yes, for accounting purposes, tax write off of assets, power stations are usually listed as 50 year operations.
By the way, the federal government has announced the end of RET and the subsidies (not business tax deductions for expenses incurred in earning taxable profit all businesses can use) and already the new projects list is shrinking. Without taxpayer/consumer support subsidies shareholders back away from the unreliable energy technologies. But the investors have been happy to ask for "firming" to support their for profit businesses, backup generators, batteries, etc., despite being subsidised to supply energy to the grid. And now they want the grids upgraded?
For me Hybrid technology and soon added Hydrogen technology is the future of transport, but without government picking the winners and losers please. Free market capitalism is what produced our national prosperity.
The AEMO allocates "capacity factor" to all wind farms and solar farms, that being the most likely, on average capacity to delivery energy over a long period in time to the grid. They are plus or minus 30 per cent of their design capacity - nameplate - or sometimes called installed capacity. In other words those farms are on average capable of supplying 30 MW if design rating is 100 MW. Liddell Power Station NSW has 4 generators of 500 MW capacity each.
AEMO is now reducing the energy supplied by wind and solar to account for loss in transmission line to the main grid, loss increases with distance and type of generator. So 30 percent capacity factor might only be 27 per cent I understand.
The SA battery is capable of a very small compared to national grid baseload energy level delivery, in short bursts in between recharging. No way it could help the VIC grid.
"The awarding of a 129 MWh battery contract to Tesla is big news for South Australia, as it will be able to instantly provide power to the grid when needed, as well as taking out any fluctuations (unreliable, hard to predict, intermittent operation) in generating capacity from surrounding wind farms and PV installations. The battery will supply close to 10 per cent of the state's energy needs for almost an hour."
And batty and back ups were not necessary when power stations were the only generators.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/misconceptions-about-battery-storage/
-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 29th of September 2019 04:43:37 PM
Hi
Yes there are problems and also solutions, even ones' yet to be discovered. It reminds me of an old Aussie poem written many many years ago,
published exactly 100 years ago. Knockers are not new !! My apologies to John O'Brien for the barstardisation 
Jaahn
"Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan
In accents most forlorn
Outside the van ere brekky began
One frosty Sunday morn.
The campers all stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of batteries towing, power
As they had done for years.
"Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "
If the sun dont come this week."
"Theyre singin out for power," he said,
"And all the batteries dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.
And shine it did, in Gods good time:
And sun came in to fold
A mantle oer the roofs sublime
Of blue and white and shine.
And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
did smile a-while
when using ere they want.
While round the camp in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
Well all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of September 2019 09:18:29 AM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of September 2019 12:16:41 PM
This is not because electric motors wont do the job, in fact they are capable of doing it better than ICE's due to having maximum torque from 0 RPM.
It is the terrible range they have when anything is attached on the back.
There is a youtube video of a father and son who set off across several states in the US in their Tesla SUV towing a smallish camper trailer weighing about 1000kgs.
The range decreased to such an extent due to towing and the charging times so long, that they gave up in the end and got a family member to meet them in a Landcruiser so that they could get to the meeting they were going to on time.
In the hills the range deteriorated to something like 80 to 90 miles and the charging was done at Tesla supercharging stations.
Three things must happen before EV's become a viable alternative for towing.
1. Battery technology needs to improve vastly to improve range and be less affected by hooking something on the back. Keep in mind that many of us tow up to 3 times the weight and the frontal area of the one in the Youtube video.
2. The ability to rapid charge needs to improve dramatically to make it practical.
3. The infrastructure needs to be in place in remote areas to enable charging to happen, and I don't mean sitting for hours with a generator or portable solar hooked up to refuel the vehicle either. It has to be as convenient as fueling an ICE.
Whilst pure electric cars make some sense for commuter vehicles in our cities, I see other technology such as hydrogen fuel cell vehicles being far more practical for remote travel and possibly for towing. They are also not a burden on the grid infrastructure either which is a major issue with pure EV's.
A Tesla is a luxury sports oriented vehicle, a bit like towing the van with a fully tricked up Ford turbo 6cyl petrol engine or a Holden supercharged V8. All the power in the world to do the job, but certainly not economical.
The are battery/electric vehicle designed for towing 3.5 tonne or more in production now, expect to be available sometime next yr. As these will be the first of their kind, it will depend on the uptake as to whether more research goes into improving them where weak spots are apparent, or if they decide there isn't a market and change to hybrid powered models.
Hydrogen fuel cells in place of batteries or as a supplementary power source, maybe, I think they will be too bulky to really become mainstream for an EV, but they could become mainstream for out back charging stations as an aux to solar charging.
T1 Terry
While the grubberment continue to get 75 cents in the dollar for fuel.
While multinationals can sell oil at high prices
While the worlds economy is balanced on the sale of oil
While little funds are dedicated to finding better systems
While politicians continue to get kickbacks from petrochemical companies
We will be driving polluting cars.
Only when adequate funding is directed at better technology
Only when the oil runs out
Only when too many people start dying
Only when the multinationals see profit
Only when the grubberment finds a way to tax the sun.
We will get our alternative fuel or electric powered vehicles.
Its a greedy world, led by greedy men and women, advised by greedy corporations and multinationals.
One day, perhaps, I will see affordable and functional alternatives to hydrocarbon fuel.
But I doubt that I will see it in the 30 years I have left.
It would be wonderful, but I just cannot see it happening.
Cheers,
Peter
A Tesla S pulled up behind and was using my 4WD's slipstream, I assume that was the reason for driving so closely behind my vehicle. After several minutes we came to a road construction zone and 80 kmh and then 40 kmh. The Tesla EV dropped back with a few vehicles in between it and my vehicle. Back in the 110 KMH zone I returned gradually speeding up to 110 KMH and the Tesla soon caught up and resumed slipstreaming.
Some distance down the road we came to another hilly section with a B-Double climbing up at about 90 KMH, for reason I did not understand the Tesla pulled out and came alongside my vehicle, and annoyingly stayed there until over the hill, and then it passed the truck and slowed, I overtook it again after a while at 110 KMH. It again commenced slipstreaming. After nearly 20 minutes the Tesla dropped back, and further back until it was disappearing.
EV energy usage increases with speed and climbing hills. I understand that highway cruising long distance is best done at 90 kmh or less. And the range also depends on usage of energy for air conditioning or heating, load on board (people and luggage), windscreen wiper use, etc. Typically a driver should calculate or estimate range on highway by discounting at least 30% from theoretical or factory range estimate. And that would be lightly loaded.
Many motoring journalists are now reporting that EV is best suited to suburban use where regenerative braking is most often applicable to put some energy back into the battery pack, and where road speeds are lower than highway speeds. An NRMA Nissan Leaf test in 2018 with four aboard reported useful range of just over 200 kms, and returning to Sydney via the coast the driver switched air conditioning off when concerned about reaching the next recharging station. The new Leaf has a retail price over $50,000 plus costs like charging equipment and home recharging point, unless standard 240 volt power point and many more charging hours is acceptable.
I agree that change (forced by governments, notable European Union - Euro Standards) is underway, but that does not reflect a market ready to accept high prices and inconvenience of range and recharging on the road. If free market capitalist system was allowed to work as it does, I doubt that a transition would take place quickly, at least not until EV is equivalent to ICEV in all respects.
In my opinion EV will probably not be the main choice, more likely Hybrid technology (engine powered generator charging battery or hydrogen fuel cell). EV maybe, when the price is comparable to ICEV, for city folk.
All of that applies to every vehicle on the road today, yesterday, tomorrow and in 100 years time irrespective of what the energy source is.
It is called PHYSICS.
Cheers,
Peter
the only way you are going to out-do a Tesla in some old Toyota or Datsun or whatever 4wd is if you are towing though a river up a hill, loaded with camping gear.
No possibly way on a freeway. Period.
Check one out for real, they will blow your pants off.
more likely the "driver" was asleep or otherwise occupied.