Ummm....... a kWh @ 12v is 83ah, who is paying anything like $1,500 for a 12v 83ah battery? Even if a quality lithium battery died after 10 yrs or only had 80% capacity remaining, that is still $750 for a 12v 83Ah battery with an unknown C rating at how that 83ah was determined. 83Ah at a C20 rating is less than 50Ah at a C2 rating and that is how "quality" lithium batteries are rated. $15Ah @ 12v, why can't I find customers like that?
Forget about using lithium Titanate in the RV, the energy to weight ratio brings you back to lead acid weights or worse and the area required is bigger.
As for the 20 yrs warranty, is that backed by Bloomberg clean energy finance? Not worth a pinch of poo ticket if the backing isn't there. 10 yrs ago there were 720 solar panel manufacturers in China all offering a 25 yr warranty, only 25 of those companies exist today, guess what warranty for the 695 manufacturers that have shut up shop is worth?
Same goes for the warranty on these drop in lithium batteries, will they still be trading under that name if you need to make a claim? The "phoenix" effect that many of these cheap solar installer companies you see offering amazing deals is probably one of the biggest problems we have in Australia at the moment and no one is policing it, the house battery market is no different.
T1 Terry
yobarr said
07:31 PM Nov 13, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
Ummm....... a kWh @ 12v is 83ah, who is paying anything like $1,500 for a 12v 83ah battery? Even if a quality lithium battery died after 10 yrs or only had 80% capacity remaining, that is still $750 for a 12v 83Ah battery with an unknown C rating at how that 83ah was determined. 83Ah at a C20 rating is less than 50Ah at a C2 rating and that is how "quality" lithium batteries are rated. $15Ah @ 12v, why can't I find customers like that? Forget about using lithium Titanate in the RV, the energy to weight ratio brings you back to lead acid weights or worse and the area required is bigger. As for the 20 yrs warranty, is that backed by Bloomberg clean energy finance? Not worth a pinch of poo ticket if the backing isn't there. 10 yrs ago there were 720 solar panel manufacturers in China all offering a 25 yr warranty, only 25 of those companies exist today, guess what warranty for the 695 manufacturers that have shut up shop is worth? Same goes for the warranty on these drop in lithium batteries, will they still be trading under that name if you need to make a claim? The "phoenix" effect that many of these cheap solar installer companies you see offering amazing deals is probably one of the biggest problems we have in Australia at the moment and no one is policing it, the house battery market is no different.
T1 Terry
Absolutely true Terry....I am involved in Solar sales,using good gear,and I have seen one of my North facing 6kw systems making 3 times as much power as that produced by a neighbour's 6kw North-facing system.Theirs had made 6.8kwh at midday,while mine had made 20.4kwh......always you will get people buying rubbish and bleating when it doesnt perform.C'est la vie!. Do it once,do it well.Cheers
T1 Terry said
01:21 PM Nov 14, 2019
The whole system has a lot to answer for with the whole Tier 1 rating for solar panels or any thing solar or solar/battery/inverter related. We will only use quality products such as Winston lithium cells and Tindo panels on large off grid systems, yet none of them are "Tier 1"catigory, but the Tindo panels are certified by the Clean Energy Council. They offer a genuine 25 yr warranty, you can tour the factory and watch them being made and just how much care goes into their construction. They rated at the top of the pile in the Choice back up test carried out 12mths I think it was after install. The fact only 2 out of the 10 rated by the original Choice tests still performed to the same specs after only 12 mths says a lot about the "quality" of Tier 1 panels.
For those that aren't in the know, worth a Google search to see what Tier 1 really means, it is a Bloomberg finance rating, nothing to do with quality or reliability, just the financial stability and production rate of the factory. Even Tier 1 manufacturers can go belly up, so that isn't even any sort of reassurance and the only relevance Tier 1 has is for the financing of solar farms, it doesn't help you with roof top solar panel failures because Bloomberg doesn't finance the small stuff.
T1 Terry
montie said
07:35 AM Nov 15, 2019
T1 Terry wrote:
Ummm....... a kWh @ 12v is 83ah, who is paying anything like $1,500 for a 12v 83ah battery? Even if a quality lithium battery died after 10 yrs or only had 80% capacity remaining, that is still $750 for a 12v 83Ah battery with an unknown C rating at how that 83ah was determined. 83Ah at a C20 rating is less than 50Ah at a C2 rating and that is how "quality" lithium batteries are rated. $15Ah @ 12v, why can't I find customers like that? Forget about using lithium Titanate in the RV, the energy to weight ratio brings you back to lead acid weights or worse and the area required is bigger. As for the 20 yrs warranty, is that backed by Bloomberg clean energy finance? Not worth a pinch of poo ticket if the backing isn't there. 10 yrs ago there were 720 solar panel manufacturers in China all offering a 25 yr warranty, only 25 of those companies exist today, guess what warranty for the 695 manufacturers that have shut up shop is worth? Same goes for the warranty on these drop in lithium batteries, will they still be trading under that name if you need to make a claim? The "phoenix" effect that many of these cheap solar installer companies you see offering amazing deals is probably one of the biggest problems we have in Australia at the moment and no one is policing it, the house battery market is no different.
T1 Terry
The warranty is only as good as the company that gives it!
T1 Terry said
02:11 PM Nov 15, 2019
montie wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
Ummm....... a kWh @ 12v is 83ah, who is paying anything like $1,500 for a 12v 83ah battery? Even if a quality lithium battery died after 10 yrs or only had 80% capacity remaining, that is still $750 for a 12v 83Ah battery with an unknown C rating at how that 83ah was determined. 83Ah at a C20 rating is less than 50Ah at a C2 rating and that is how "quality" lithium batteries are rated. $15Ah @ 12v, why can't I find customers like that? Forget about using lithium Titanate in the RV, the energy to weight ratio brings you back to lead acid weights or worse and the area required is bigger. As for the 20 yrs warranty, is that backed by Bloomberg clean energy finance? Not worth a pinch of poo ticket if the backing isn't there. 10 yrs ago there were 720 solar panel manufacturers in China all offering a 25 yr warranty, only 25 of those companies exist today, guess what warranty for the 695 manufacturers that have shut up shop is worth? Same goes for the warranty on these drop in lithium batteries, will they still be trading under that name if you need to make a claim? The "phoenix" effect that many of these cheap solar installer companies you see offering amazing deals is probably one of the biggest problems we have in Australia at the moment and no one is policing it, the house battery market is no different.
T1 Terry
The warranty is only as good as the company that gives it!
Or really as good as the financial stability of the warranty backing company and how many weasel words are in the actual warranty document.
This is a totally ficticious warranty schedule I just made up, but it doesn't mean it could not actually be made into a legal document that is accepted when payment for the product is made ..........
A 20 yr warranty with a non graduated pro rata warranty can be a real trap. A full replacement warranty for the full 20 yrs is very different to a 12 mth full replacement warranty followed by a 50% pro rata arrangement for the next 12 mth period starting from the first day into the second 12 mth period with a further 15% for the next 3 yrs. So full replacement up to day 365, The customer pays 50% of the retail cost from day 366 through to day 730, the customer is up for 65% of the retail price from day 731 through to day 1095, 80% from day 1096 to 1460, 95% from day 1461 through to the end of the warranty period.
I'm not suggesting that is the way the 20yr warranty is structured for this reseller or manufacturer, but that sort of trap can be hidden in the fine print that would require a good legal mind to interpret to show the warranty wasn't worth much after the first 3 yrs and it would only cost the manufacturer anything if the failure happened in the first 12 mths, the 50% mark up to retail price would cover their butt from there on and any claim after the 2 yr period would actually result in a profit.
This is generally a type of insurance policy and we have all seen what can happen with insurance companies and any financial institution for that matter. With the fictitious warranty I wrote above, the manufacturer only needs to cover themselves for 12 mths to avoid a loss at all.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Friday 15th of November 2019 02:14:39 PM
Jaahn said
06:23 PM Nov 15, 2019
Hi Tony
Without wanting to argue with you about this but the truth of the statement "A worthy competitor to current lithiums. Good warranty"
can only be judged some years down the track, hopefully perhaps in 20 years.
I like to stick with tried and proven things that have stood the test of time. Perhaps with new technology I might have to move a bit faster, in which case I stick to a known manufacturer who has a track record in the field. Served me personally well for a lot of years mostly, and in my previous job buying for an organisation .
However people might like to test these products for us all, as new adopters. Go for it, your money to spend as you see fit. Good luck.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 15th of November 2019 06:26:37 PM
T1 Terry said
02:20 PM Nov 16, 2019
Jaahn wrote:
Hi Tony
Without wanting to argue with you about this but the truth of the statement "A worthy competitor to current lithiums. Good warranty"
can only be judged some years down the track, hopefully perhaps in 20 years.
I like to stick with tried and proven things that have stood the test of time. Perhaps with new technology I might have to move a bit faster, in which case I stick to a known manufacturer who has a track record in the field. Served me personally well for a lot of years mostly, and in my previous job buying for an organisation .
However people might like to test these products for us all, as new adopters. Go for it, your money to spend as you see fit. Good luck.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 15th of November 2019 06:26:37 PM
:lol: Back in 2011 when we first introduced using lithium batteries as house batteries on the Caravanner Forum and the CMCA forum (early edition) we were howled down and told to come back in 4 yrs and tell them how these new fangled batteries were going or if they had burnt the house down, in the mean time they would stick with the tried and true lead acid batteries.
We are now well into our 9th yr of full time use with a lot of systems out there on the road, but we still get the sceptics and those who have found the latest and greatest that offer so much more ..... We are also bombarded with the cheap copy knock off ideas from those who are virtually clueless about the way the chemistry differs from the old lead acid technology and think they can put the whole lot into a plastic case that looks like the old lead acid battery and use the same charging regimes and methods of building a bigger capacity.
What astounds me is the fact we had to come back in 4 yrs and tell our story, yet now the newest kid on the block sells a better product and cheaper according to the experts that suddenly know everything about the subject. The fact we have test results showing that the 8 yr old systems at the time still had 100% capacity using the same C2 test load as the factory uses, no longer mattered at all. It wasn't that we had proved we had done the hard work and developed a BMS that worked, suddenly anything with lithium ion in the description somewhere were the magic and nothing to do with understanding what you were doing mattered.
T1 Terry
Tony LEE said
07:48 PM Nov 16, 2019
Geeze Terry, it was just an article posted here for general interest and not a personal attack on you and your company (which of course you never mention or advertise) and your products.
You could draw an exact parallel between the persecution you say you endured pushing your lithium barrow and the pooh-pooh ing you do when anything new and possibly better is mentioned.
As for my 20 batteries in 7 vehicles, not a single one is anything but lead acid technology simply because they all do the job I bought them to do. When they stop giving me value for money, I'll consider alternatives.
An early adopter, I definitely am not.
Mattt said
11:19 AM Nov 17, 2019
Popcorn, anyone?
T1 Terry said
12:20 PM Nov 17, 2019
Not a personal attack Tony, no idea why you read as that but that wasn't the intent. As for the popcorn, bring it on :lol: Any cold beer to go with it?
T1 Terry
Mattt said
03:59 PM Nov 17, 2019
Lol... I guess you should ask Margaret about the beer. She might find it proprietary :p
Forget about using lithium Titanate in the RV, the energy to weight ratio brings you back to lead acid weights or worse and the area required is bigger.
As for the 20 yrs warranty, is that backed by Bloomberg clean energy finance? Not worth a pinch of poo ticket if the backing isn't there. 10 yrs ago there were 720 solar panel manufacturers in China all offering a 25 yr warranty, only 25 of those companies exist today, guess what warranty for the 695 manufacturers that have shut up shop is worth?
Same goes for the warranty on these drop in lithium batteries, will they still be trading under that name if you need to make a claim? The "phoenix" effect that many of these cheap solar installer companies you see offering amazing deals is probably one of the biggest problems we have in Australia at the moment and no one is policing it, the house battery market is no different.
T1 Terry
Absolutely true Terry....I am involved in Solar sales,using good gear,and I have seen one of my North facing 6kw systems making 3 times as much power as that produced by a neighbour's 6kw North-facing system.Theirs had made 6.8kwh at midday,while mine had made 20.4kwh......always you will get people buying rubbish and bleating when it doesnt perform.C'est la vie!. Do it once,do it well.Cheers
For those that aren't in the know, worth a Google search to see what Tier 1 really means, it is a Bloomberg finance rating, nothing to do with quality or reliability, just the financial stability and production rate of the factory. Even Tier 1 manufacturers can go belly up, so that isn't even any sort of reassurance and the only relevance Tier 1 has is for the financing of solar farms, it doesn't help you with roof top solar panel failures because Bloomberg doesn't finance the small stuff.
T1 Terry
The warranty is only as good as the company that gives it!
Or really as good as the financial stability of the warranty backing company and how many weasel words are in the actual warranty document.
This is a totally ficticious warranty schedule I just made up, but it doesn't mean it could not actually be made into a legal document that is accepted when payment for the product is made ..........
A 20 yr warranty with a non graduated pro rata warranty can be a real trap. A full replacement warranty for the full 20 yrs is very different to a 12 mth full replacement warranty followed by a 50% pro rata arrangement for the next 12 mth period starting from the first day into the second 12 mth period with a further 15% for the next 3 yrs. So full replacement up to day 365, The customer pays 50% of the retail cost from day 366 through to day 730, the customer is up for 65% of the retail price from day 731 through to day 1095, 80% from day 1096 to 1460, 95% from day 1461 through to the end of the warranty period.
I'm not suggesting that is the way the 20yr warranty is structured for this reseller or manufacturer, but that sort of trap can be hidden in the fine print that would require a good legal mind to interpret to show the warranty wasn't worth much after the first 3 yrs and it would only cost the manufacturer anything if the failure happened in the first 12 mths, the 50% mark up to retail price would cover their butt from there on and any claim after the 2 yr period would actually result in a profit.
This is generally a type of insurance policy and we have all seen what can happen with insurance companies and any financial institution for that matter. With the fictitious warranty I wrote above, the manufacturer only needs to cover themselves for 12 mths to avoid a loss at all.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Friday 15th of November 2019 02:14:39 PM
Hi Tony
Without wanting to argue with you about this but the truth of the statement "A worthy competitor to current lithiums. Good warranty"
can only be judged some years down the track, hopefully perhaps in 20 years.
I like to stick with tried and proven things that have stood the test of time. Perhaps with new technology I might have to move a bit faster, in which case I stick to a known manufacturer who has a track record in the field. Served me personally well for a lot of years mostly, and in my previous job buying for an organisation .
However people might like to test these products for us all, as new adopters. Go for it, your money to spend as you see fit. Good luck.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 15th of November 2019 06:26:37 PM
:lol: Back in 2011 when we first introduced using lithium batteries as house batteries on the Caravanner Forum and the CMCA forum (early edition) we were howled down and told to come back in 4 yrs and tell them how these new fangled batteries were going or if they had burnt the house down, in the mean time they would stick with the tried and true lead acid batteries.
We are now well into our 9th yr of full time use with a lot of systems out there on the road, but we still get the sceptics and those who have found the latest and greatest that offer so much more ..... We are also bombarded with the cheap copy knock off ideas from those who are virtually clueless about the way the chemistry differs from the old lead acid technology and think they can put the whole lot into a plastic case that looks like the old lead acid battery and use the same charging regimes and methods of building a bigger capacity.
What astounds me is the fact we had to come back in 4 yrs and tell our story, yet now the newest kid on the block sells a better product and cheaper according to the experts that suddenly know everything about the subject. The fact we have test results showing that the 8 yr old systems at the time still had 100% capacity using the same C2 test load as the factory uses, no longer mattered at all. It wasn't that we had proved we had done the hard work and developed a BMS that worked, suddenly anything with lithium ion in the description somewhere were the magic and nothing to do with understanding what you were doing mattered.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry