Will it tow 23ft crusader caravan I think weighs 2300kg I think unloaded has anyone done this on long trip.
yobarr said
09:25 AM Apr 26, 2020
chat iwrote:
Will it tow 23ft crusader caravan I think weighs 2300kg I think unloaded has anyone done this on long trip.
Hi Steve....on paper,it will be no problem.I will post details later,but it would be good if you could look at the van's compliance plate and post details, or maybe even a photo? The most important figure is the ATM,but tare and ball weight also are important.Cheers
yobarr said
02:58 PM Apr 26, 2020
chat wrote:
Will it tow 23ft crusader caravan I think weighs 2300kg I think unloaded has anyone done this on long trip.
On paper,the car is quite capable of safely towing up to about 3000kg ATM,assuming 10% towball weight.This would give you 2700kg GTM (weight on trailer wheels). Your GVM (weight on car wheels) is 3100kg,but you NEVER will be able to reach this,as a 300kg towball weight takes about 150kg OFF your front axle and transfers it to the rear axle,meaning you've put 450kg extra onto the rear axle. There lies your biggest problem....the rear axle of the car is rated at a miserable 1750kg.However,you have 157kw,so no lack of power,but realistically,the rear axle limits your towing capacity. If you can supply your van's compliance plate details,I am happy to do research to give further assistance.Cheers
P.S I would be loath to tow a 23 feet van behind a lightweight car that has only 2850mm wheelbase,but that's another story
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 26th of April 2020 07:02:48 PM
StewG said
04:18 PM May 4, 2020
As Yobar says, the rear axle is probably the limiting factor. My Land Rover D4 theoretically can tow 3.5 tonne and 350kg tow ball weight. I have a 2.5 tonne van and about 250kg tow ball weight. Once I put the fridge and a few tools and luggage in the car it comes very close to maxxing out the rear axle at 1855kg.
Amigo1 said
12:50 PM May 5, 2020
Hi Steve,
My tug is also a Ford Everest (3.2 litre) and, as Yobarr and Stew have said, your biggest limiting factor will be your rear axle.
The actual weighbridge results from my recent visit when fully packed to hit the road confirm what they say and are illustrated in my attached weights analyser/calculator that you may have already found on separate post on the forum last year. Feelfree to run a 23 Crusaders specs through the calculator. The key specs for an Everests are already in the spreadsheet, although I think the 2.0 litre turbo version might have a 3,100 Kg braked towing capacity as against 3,000 Kg for the 3.2 litre version.
Coincidentally my vans Tare of 2300 KG is the same as you suggest for a 23 Crusader.
My actual tow ball load after the weighbridge visit as a percentage of my caravans weighed ATM was 8.1% which was short of the ideal minimum of 10%.So, using the calculator and rearranging a couple of things towards the front of my van, I was able to lift this percentage to 10% which still leaves me below my plated Rear Axle Load and GCM maximums which are the two specs in my case that are closest to their maximum.
I do not use or need a Weight Distribution Hitch which of course would shift some rear axle weight back to the front wheel as well a bit of it onto the van axles.
My tug is also a Ford Everest (3.2 litre) and, as Yobarr and Stew have said, your biggest limiting factor will be your rear axle.
The actual weighbridge results from my recent visit when fully packed to hit the road confirm what they say and are illustrated in my attached weights analyser/calculator that you may have already found on separate post on the forum last year. Feelfree to run a 23 Crusaders specs through the calculator. The key specs for an Everests are already in the spreadsheet, although I think the 2.0 litre turbo version might have a 3,100 Kg braked towing capacity as against 3,000 Kg for the 3.2 litre version.
Coincidentally my vans Tare of 2300 KG is the same as you suggest for a 23 Crusader.
My actual tow ball load after the weighbridge visit as a percentage of my caravans weighed ATM was 8.1% which was short of the ideal minimum of 10%.So, using the calculator and rearranging a couple of things towards the front of my van, I was able to lift this percentage to 10% which still leaves me below my plated Rear Axle Load and GCM maximums which are the two specs in my case that are closest to their maximum.
I do not use or need a Weight Distribution Hitch which of course would shift some rear axle weight back to the front wheel as well a bit of it onto the van axles.
Cheers, Phillip
Hi Phillip....great post,and I note that you are one of the few who understands that,as well as transferring weight from the car's rear axle,to its front axle,a WDH also transfers weight to the van's axle group.In most cases around 70% of the weight taken from the car's rear axle (NOT the towball) is put back onto the car's front axle,with the remaining 30% being transferred to the van's axle group.If that van already was loaded to its legal ATM,the transferred weight will cause that van to be overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.The percentages of transferred weight are dependent on wheelbase,towball overhang,and the distance from the hitch point to the van's axle group,but 70/30 is a representative figure.Although I do not use a WDH,my tests showed that the figures for my car are 66/34 because of a long wheelbase and a short TBO.Many people have little understanding of how a WDH works,and do not realise that it is not the universal "cure all" many seem to think it is.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of May 2020 03:02:15 PM
PeterInSa said
04:30 PM May 5, 2020
Re (.Many people have little understanding of how a WDH works,and do not realise that it is not the universal "cure all" many seem to think it is)
We have a HR WDH on our Tug Tandem Caravan Combo, and during the van hook up I see the rear end of the Cruiser lift up and later can notice the front lower, driving, I feel that the steering is firmer and to me with more weight on the front wheels that I understand perform the majority of the breaking, if think fitting a WDH is a plus.
Re (.Many people have little understanding of how a WDH works,and do not realise that it is not the universal "cure all" many seem to think it is)
We have a HR WDH on our Tug Tandem Caravan Combo, and during the van hook up I see the rear end of the Cruiser lift up and later can notice the front lower, driving, I feel that the steering is firmer and to me with more weight on the front wheels that I understand perform the majority of the breaking, if think fitting a WDH is a plus.
Thanks Peter,for that link,as it may help those with little understanding of physics,and even less interest in learning.Many times I have referred to Collyn Rivers as a well recognised expert on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience,but there is at least one member of the forum who does not understand,and flatly rejects Collyns advice.C'est la vie.Cheers
Brenda and Alan said
09:57 PM May 5, 2020
Yobarr I Quote from your post regarding the effect of a WDH the following "If that van already was loaded to its legal ATM,the transferred weight will cause that van to be overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.
The transfer of this weight does not change in any way a vans ATM. This weight is just a portion of the towball weight that is not imposed on the tow vehicle.
Alan
Amigo1 said
11:45 PM May 5, 2020
Hi Alan,8
As a true novice in this subject area and only trying to apply logic and maths, I might offer my thoughts on what I think are some effects on caravan weights when using a WDH.
Assuming (as yobarr hypothesised) that a caravan is loaded up to near its plated ATM (i.e. likely near its maximum GTM + Tow ball weight) and you use a WDH, isn't some of the weight being transferred to the van's GTM and axle group coming from the tug's front axle load, not just its rear axle load? If so, then won't this increase to your GTM likely put it over the van's legal and limit because it is an additional and new weight transference to the van and thus its actual ATM?
As an aside in respect of GTM importance, I have only ever been formally roadside checked once by authorities. It was a very brief encounter and due to a need to get through a line of vans as quickly as possible my check focused only on my van's GTM and my GCM. That did not require a time consuming unhitching to check tow bar loading, etc, and I simply drove onto eight wheel pads for about ten seconds and that was it. Their computer already contained my tug's GCM and they checked my van's spec plate for the GTM. All was quite in order with those two limits and the whole process took about three minutes. If I had been using a WDH to level out the rig AND was right on the limit for ATM, I am sure I would have been in trouble for exceeding GTM, forgetting for a moment about any ATM implications. I am not sure how the gentlmen in blue would have reacted if one was then to debate that my ATM was still legal?
Anyway Alan, just my thoughts and I am sure that the far more experienced heads on this forum could better analyse your comment on a WDH's effects on an ATM.
Cheers,
Phillip
-- Edited by Amigo1 on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 12:26:45 AM
yobarr said
01:54 AM May 6, 2020
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr I Quote from your post regarding the effect of a WDH the following "If that van already was loaded to its legal ATM,the transferred weight will cause that van to be overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.
The transfer of this weight does not change in any way a vans ATM. This weight is just a portion of the towball weight that is not imposed on the tow vehicle.
Alan
Alan,it seems that you have either not read,or not understood my detailed post about the transfer of weight that takes place when a WDH is tensioned.Towball weight does not change.Weight is removed from the car's rear axle,with around 70% of that weight being returned to the car's front axle,and around 30% going onto the van's axle group.Like many,you seem to not understandup that a WDH does not change towball weight. Surely you understand that ATM includes towball weight and GTM? If a van is loaded to its,say,3500kg ATM,assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight,there would be 350kg on the towball and 3150kg on the axle group.(GTM). When the the WDH is tensioned, weight is transferred to the van's axle group,thus increasing the weight on its axles.Immediately,your van is overloaded,since towball weight doesn't change.Sad,inconvenient truth,but indisputable fact.Simple physics. I sincerely hope that this helps you understand the workings of a WDH,because the last line of your post suggests that you do not? Cheers.
P.S Phillip asked whether some of the weight transferred to the van's axle group had come from the front axle of the car? Originally it would have done,but it had first been transferred to the car's rear axle when the van was connected to the towball,then when the WDH is tensioned,some weight returns to the car's front axle,with the balance being applied to the van's axle group.
Brenda and Alan said
09:15 AM May 6, 2020
With a WDH tow ball weight must change. In the case Yobarr gave 30% of tow bar weight is transferred to the vans axles increasing the GTM by that 30%. the vans ATM remains the same, it can't magically change mass. So that 30% weight comes off the towball loading. I've heard a lot that a WDH does not change towball weight, but i find that impossible to believe.
As an example a van at ATM 3000 Kgs and an unhitched towball mass of 300 Kgs. When hitched and WDH tensioned the 30% transfer of towball weight changes the vans GTM from 2700 Kgs to 2790 Kgs. Now since nothing has been put into or removed from the van the towball weight is now clearly 210 Kgs (3000-2790 Kgs).
Unless Einstein got it wrong a century ago for a WDH to increase a vans mass by the simple act of tensioning a WDH would require for more energy the any one could exert.
Alan
yobarr said
10:11 AM May 6, 2020
Brenda and Alan wrote:
With a WDH tow ball weight must change. In the case Yobarr gave 30% of tow bar weight is transferred to the vans axles increasing the GTM by that 30%. the vans ATM remains the same, it can't magically change mass. So that 30% weight comes off the towball loading. I've heard a lot that a WDH does not change towball weight, but i find that impossible to believe.
As an example a van at ATM 3000 Kgs and an unhitched towball mass of 300 Kgs. When hitched and WDH tensioned the 30% transfer of towball weight changes the vans GTM from 2700 Kgs to 2790 Kgs. Now since nothing has been put into or removed from the van the towball weight is now clearly 210 Kgs (3000-2790 Kgs).
Unless Einstein got it wrong a century ago for a WDH to increase a vans mass by the simple act of tensioning a WDH would require for more energy the any one could exert.
Alan
Alan,what you believe matters little......you cannot change the laws of physics. For your own peace of mind,perhaps you could visit a weighbridge and conduct a test? First weigh your car's front axle,then drive forward until both axles are on the weighbridge.You now will know what your car weighs. Reverse off the bridge and then tension your WDH as much as you can.Drive forward so that the front wheels of your car are again on weighbridge,and note the weight on that axle.....it will have increased.Now drive forward until both axles of car are on weighbridge and note total weight.Total weight will have decreased,with the "missing" weight being transferred to the van's axle group.Towball weight does not change,and neither does GCM,but the total weight on your car's wheels (GVM if you like) decreases and the weight on your van's axle group (GTM if you like) increases.GCM stays the same.These are the facts,outlined as simply as I can,but if you still struggle to understand,I strongly suggest that you access books written by Collyn Rivers,a recognised authority on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience in this field. I have just reread your last post,and it seems that you are well and truly lost,so I sincerely hope that my latest explanation clears things for you? A WDH does not change towball weight.Simple physics,but unfortunate for your arguement.Good luck with your study.Cheers
P.S As I already have stated,with my car's 3180mm wheelbase,1200mm TBO,and 5 metres from hitchpoint to the centre of the van's axle group, using a WDH to remove 100kg from the car's rear axle resulted in the front axle gaining 66kg and the van's axle group gaining 34kg.GVM is reduced, GTM is increased but GCM remains the same,obviously.TBM does not change.Hope this helps? Cheers
Jaahn said
11:07 AM May 6, 2020
Brenda and Alan wrote:
With a WDH tow ball weight must change. In the case Yobarr gave 30% of tow bar weight is transferred to the vans axles increasing the GTM by that 30%. the vans ATM remains the same, it can't magically change mass. So that 30% weight comes off the towball loading. I've heard a lot that a WDH does not change towball weight, but i find that impossible to believe.As an example a van at ATM 3000 Kgs and an unhitched towball mass of 300 Kgs. When hitched and WDH tensioned the 30% transfer of towball weight changes the vans GTM from 2700 Kgs to 2790 Kgs. Now since nothing has been put into or removed from the van the towball weight is now clearly 210 Kgs (3000-2790 Kgs).
Unless Einstein got it wrong a century ago for a WDH to increase a vans mass by the simple act of tensioning a WDH would require for more energy the any one could exert.
I make this comment to perhaps prevent the useful thread getting into a useless discussion(again!).
The mass of the caravan and the tug obviously do not change. But to determine the 'mass' we actually use a weigh bridge or scales, which actually show the weight of the units or on the axles. AND that is what will be done by the inspectors or indeed by the owner when he checks it.
The problem IMHO is with the terminology used by the transport industry and the registration authorities. They use the term MASS in dubious manners when WEIGHT would be more appropriate. So it would be helpful IMHO if the discussion did not go round in circles that are off the real point. Which is how the distribution of the weight can be changed over the axles by a WDH. Well known and accepted for 60-70 years I would say and discussed here many many times.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 12:47:48 PM
Amigo1 said
01:43 PM May 6, 2020
Hi All,
I agree with Jaahn about where this subject might be heading. Some of the mass/weights, etc, terminology is starting to lose me (and possibly other laymen on this forum).
So having opened what appears to be an old can of worms, could I try and close it now?
I will try and simplify the topic to what the average layman wants to know about Weight Distribution Hitch usage when seeking advice on this forum. I have attached some actual weighbridge WDH data that I once gathered when researching how to program my towing weights calculator/analyser spreadsheet. The sample data sets came from various sources such as road authorities checks (I think that I found it in an old thread somewhere on this forum?) as well as a data set from a Hayman Reese WDH usage demonstration that is conducted annually at the Sydney Caravan Show.
The terminology used in the attachment is not mine. It was used by the the various authorities collecting the data, so for the moment just accept the terms as they are shown.
The bottom line for me as a prospective non-technical user of a WDH is, "Could the use of this device make me non-compliant?". The answer seems to be "Yes, it could, depending on how much reserve you had pre-WDH between your plated and actual GTM". At the bottom of every sample data set attached, you will note that the GTM of each caravan increases when a WDH is applied. In one particular set of data the GTM is increased by 105 Kg.
Alan, if you could agree with just the one fact that a caravan's GTM increases when using a WDH, then I think that the average reader will have been made aware of the possible risk to compliance that WDH usage carries. I think that is the underlying interest of yobarr. If you do agree, then I think we all will have informed and served forum members well and might leave any other thoughts for PMs?
Phillip I have no problem in agreeing that a WDH increases a van GTM. However this thread is going wildly off the OPs topic. I will start a new thread specifically on the effects of using a WDH.
Alan
yobarr said
07:59 PM May 6, 2020
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Phillip I have no problem in agreeing that a WDH increases a van GTM. However this thread is going wildly off the OPs topic. I will start a new thread specifically on the effects of using a WDH.
Alan
Hi Alan...might I respectfully suggest that,before you start such a thread,you familiarise yourself with the actual physics of using a WDH? At the moment you seem totally confused,as towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned..Cheers.
Amigo1 said
08:31 PM May 6, 2020
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Phillip I have no problem in agreeing that a WDH increases a van GTM. However this thread is going wildly off the OPs topic. I will start a new thread specifically on the effects of using a WDH.
Alan
Thanks for that Alan .. much appreciated. I do think it is important for the OP (who wanted to know if he could tow a 23 foot Crusader with an Everest) and for the less experienced forum members to see agreement between some Forum "gurus" and perhaps understand a WDH's effect on GTM compliance and thus towing safety.
I will sign off on this one now before I get out of my depth and as you say it goes "wildly off topic".
Cheers,
Phillip
JackoFJR said
08:20 PM May 8, 2020
Not a Everest but should help answer the Op's question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wp1gF7DS4w
-- Edited by JackoFJR on Friday 8th of May 2020 08:22:37 PM
Hi Steve....on paper,it will be no problem.I will post details later,but it would be good if you could look at the van's compliance plate and post details, or maybe even a photo? The most important figure is the ATM,but tare and ball weight also are important.Cheers
On paper,the car is quite capable of safely towing up to about 3000kg ATM,assuming 10% towball weight.This would give you 2700kg GTM (weight on trailer wheels). Your GVM (weight on car wheels) is 3100kg,but you NEVER will be able to reach this,as a 300kg towball weight takes about 150kg OFF your front axle and transfers it to the rear axle,meaning you've put 450kg extra onto the rear axle. There lies your biggest problem....the rear axle of the car is rated at a miserable 1750kg.However,you have 157kw,so no lack of power,but realistically,the rear axle limits your towing capacity. If you can supply your van's compliance plate details,I am happy to do research to give further assistance.Cheers
P.S I would be loath to tow a 23 feet van behind a lightweight car that has only 2850mm wheelbase,but that's another story
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 26th of April 2020 07:02:48 PM
Hi Steve,
My tug is also a Ford Everest (3.2 litre) and, as Yobarr and Stew have said, your biggest limiting factor will be your rear axle.
The actual weighbridge results from my recent visit when fully packed to hit the road confirm what they say and are illustrated in my attached weights analyser/calculator that you may have already found on separate post on the forum last year. Feel free to run a 23 Crusaders specs through the calculator. The key specs for an Everests are already in the spreadsheet, although I think the 2.0 litre turbo version might have a 3,100 Kg braked towing capacity as against 3,000 Kg for the 3.2 litre version.
Coincidentally my vans Tare of 2300 KG is the same as you suggest for a 23 Crusader.
My actual tow ball load after the weighbridge visit as a percentage of my caravans weighed ATM was 8.1% which was short of the ideal minimum of 10%. So, using the calculator and rearranging a couple of things towards the front of my van, I was able to lift this percentage to 10% which still leaves me below my plated Rear Axle Load and GCM maximums which are the two specs in my case that are closest to their maximum.
I do not use or need a Weight Distribution Hitch which of course would shift some rear axle weight back to the front wheel as well a bit of it onto the van axles.
Cheers, Phillip
Hi Phillip....great post,and I note that you are one of the few who understands that,as well as transferring weight from the car's rear axle,to its front axle,a WDH also transfers weight to the van's axle group.In most cases around 70% of the weight taken from the car's rear axle (NOT the towball) is put back onto the car's front axle,with the remaining 30% being transferred to the van's axle group.If that van already was loaded to its legal ATM,the transferred weight will cause that van to be overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.The percentages of transferred weight are dependent on wheelbase,towball overhang,and the distance from the hitch point to the van's axle group,but 70/30 is a representative figure.Although I do not use a WDH,my tests showed that the figures for my car are 66/34 because of a long wheelbase and a short TBO.Many people have little understanding of how a WDH works,and do not realise that it is not the universal "cure all" many seem to think it is.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of May 2020 03:02:15 PM
We have a HR WDH on our Tug Tandem Caravan Combo, and during the van hook up I see the rear end of the Cruiser lift up and later can notice the front lower, driving, I feel that the steering is firmer and to me with more weight on the front wheels that I understand perform the majority of the breaking, if think fitting a WDH is a plus.
But agree they are not a "cure all"
www.gorv.com.au/weight-distribution-hitch/
Peter
Thanks Peter,for that link,as it may help those with little understanding of physics,and even less interest in learning.Many times I have referred to Collyn Rivers as a well recognised expert on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience,but there is at least one member of the forum who does not understand,and flatly rejects Collyns advice.C'est la vie.Cheers
Yobarr I Quote from your post regarding the effect of a WDH the following "If that van already was loaded to its legal ATM,the transferred weight will cause that van to be overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.
The transfer of this weight does not change in any way a vans ATM. This weight is just a portion of the towball weight that is not imposed on the tow vehicle.
Alan
Hi Alan,8
As a true novice in this subject area and only trying to apply logic and maths, I might offer my thoughts on what I think are some effects on caravan weights when using a WDH.
Assuming (as yobarr hypothesised) that a caravan is loaded up to near its plated ATM (i.e. likely near its maximum GTM + Tow ball weight) and you use a WDH, isn't some of the weight being transferred to the van's GTM and axle group coming from the tug's front axle load, not just its rear axle load? If so, then won't this increase to your GTM likely put it over the van's legal and limit because it is an additional and new weight transference to the van and thus its actual ATM?
As an aside in respect of GTM importance, I have only ever been formally roadside checked once by authorities. It was a very brief encounter and due to a need to get through a line of vans as quickly as possible my check focused only on my van's GTM and my GCM. That did not require a time consuming unhitching to check tow bar loading, etc, and I simply drove onto eight wheel pads for about ten seconds and that was it. Their computer already contained my tug's GCM and they checked my van's spec plate for the GTM. All was quite in order with those two limits and the whole process took about three minutes. If I had been using a WDH to level out the rig AND was right on the limit for ATM, I am sure I would have been in trouble for exceeding GTM, forgetting for a moment about any ATM implications. I am not sure how the gentlmen in blue would have reacted if one was then to debate that my ATM was still legal?
Anyway Alan, just my thoughts and I am sure that the far more experienced heads on this forum could better analyse your comment on a WDH's effects on an ATM.
Cheers,
Phillip
-- Edited by Amigo1 on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 12:26:45 AM
Alan,it seems that you have either not read,or not understood my detailed post about the transfer of weight that takes place when a WDH is tensioned.Towball weight does not change.Weight is removed from the car's rear axle,with around 70% of that weight being returned to the car's front axle,and around 30% going onto the van's axle group.Like many,you seem to not understandup that a WDH does not change towball weight. Surely you understand that ATM includes towball weight and GTM? If a van is loaded to its,say,3500kg ATM,assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight,there would be 350kg on the towball and 3150kg on the axle group.(GTM). When the the WDH is tensioned, weight is transferred to the van's axle group,thus increasing the weight on its axles.Immediately,your van is overloaded,since towball weight doesn't change.Sad,inconvenient truth,but indisputable fact.Simple physics. I sincerely hope that this helps you understand the workings of a WDH,because the last line of your post suggests that you do not? Cheers.
P.S Phillip asked whether some of the weight transferred to the van's axle group had come from the front axle of the car? Originally it would have done,but it had first been transferred to the car's rear axle when the van was connected to the towball,then when the WDH is tensioned,some weight returns to the car's front axle,with the balance being applied to the van's axle group.
With a WDH tow ball weight must change. In the case Yobarr gave 30% of tow bar weight is transferred to the vans axles increasing the GTM by that 30%. the vans ATM remains the same, it can't magically change mass. So that 30% weight comes off the towball loading. I've heard a lot that a WDH does not change towball weight, but i find that impossible to believe.
As an example a van at ATM 3000 Kgs and an unhitched towball mass of 300 Kgs. When hitched and WDH tensioned the 30% transfer of towball weight changes the vans GTM from 2700 Kgs to 2790 Kgs. Now since nothing has been put into or removed from the van the towball weight is now clearly 210 Kgs (3000-2790 Kgs).
Unless Einstein got it wrong a century ago for a WDH to increase a vans mass by the simple act of tensioning a WDH would require for more energy the any one could exert.
Alan
Alan,what you believe matters little......you cannot change the laws of physics. For your own peace of mind,perhaps you could visit a weighbridge and conduct a test? First weigh your car's front axle,then drive forward until both axles are on the weighbridge.You now will know what your car weighs. Reverse off the bridge and then tension your WDH as much as you can.Drive forward so that the front wheels of your car are again on weighbridge,and note the weight on that axle.....it will have increased.Now drive forward until both axles of car are on weighbridge and note total weight.Total weight will have decreased,with the "missing" weight being transferred to the van's axle group.Towball weight does not change,and neither does GCM,but the total weight on your car's wheels (GVM if you like) decreases and the weight on your van's axle group (GTM if you like) increases.GCM stays the same.These are the facts,outlined as simply as I can,but if you still struggle to understand,I strongly suggest that you access books written by Collyn Rivers,a recognised authority on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience in this field. I have just reread your last post,and it seems that you are well and truly lost,so I sincerely hope that my latest explanation clears things for you? A WDH does not change towball weight.Simple physics,but unfortunate for your arguement.Good luck with your study.Cheers
P.S As I already have stated,with my car's 3180mm wheelbase,1200mm TBO,and 5 metres from hitchpoint to the centre of the van's axle group, using a WDH to remove 100kg from the car's rear axle resulted in the front axle gaining 66kg and the van's axle group gaining 34kg.GVM is reduced, GTM is increased but GCM remains the same,obviously.TBM does not change.Hope this helps? Cheers
Hi Alan and yobarr
I make this comment to perhaps prevent the useful thread getting into a useless discussion(again!).
The mass of the caravan and the tug obviously do not change. But to determine the 'mass' we actually use a weigh bridge or scales, which actually show the weight of the units or on the axles. AND that is what will be done by the inspectors or indeed by the owner when he checks it.
The problem IMHO is with the terminology used by the transport industry and the registration authorities. They use the term MASS in dubious manners when WEIGHT would be more appropriate. So it would be helpful IMHO if the discussion did not go round in circles that are off the real point.
Which is how the distribution of the weight can be changed over the axles by a WDH. Well known and accepted for 60-70 years I would say and discussed here many many times.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 6th of May 2020 12:47:48 PM
Hi All,
I agree with Jaahn about where this subject might be heading. Some of the mass/weights, etc, terminology is starting to lose me (and possibly other laymen on this forum).
So having opened what appears to be an old can of worms, could I try and close it now?
I will try and simplify the topic to what the average layman wants to know about Weight Distribution Hitch usage when seeking advice on this forum. I have attached some actual weighbridge WDH data that I once gathered when researching how to program my towing weights calculator/analyser spreadsheet. The sample data sets came from various sources such as road authorities checks (I think that I found it in an old thread somewhere on this forum?) as well as a data set from a Hayman Reese WDH usage demonstration that is conducted annually at the Sydney Caravan Show.
The terminology used in the attachment is not mine. It was used by the the various authorities collecting the data, so for the moment just accept the terms as they are shown.
The bottom line for me as a prospective non-technical user of a WDH is, "Could the use of this device make me non-compliant?". The answer seems to be "Yes, it could, depending on how much reserve you had pre-WDH between your plated and actual GTM". At the bottom of every sample data set attached, you will note that the GTM of each caravan increases when a WDH is applied. In one particular set of data the GTM is increased by 105 Kg.
Alan, if you could agree with just the one fact that a caravan's GTM increases when using a WDH, then I think that the average reader will have been made aware of the possible risk to compliance that WDH usage carries. I think that is the underlying interest of yobarr. If you do agree, then I think we all will have informed and served forum members well and might leave any other thoughts for PMs?
Cheers,
Phillip
Phillip I have no problem in agreeing that a WDH increases a van GTM. However this thread is going wildly off the OPs topic. I will start a new thread specifically on the effects of using a WDH.
Alan
Hi Alan...might I respectfully suggest that,before you start such a thread,you familiarise yourself with the actual physics of using a WDH? At the moment you seem totally confused,as towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned..Cheers.
Thanks for that Alan .. much appreciated. I do think it is important for the OP (who wanted to know if he could tow a 23 foot Crusader with an Everest) and for the less experienced forum members to see agreement between some Forum "gurus" and perhaps understand a WDH's effect on GTM compliance and thus towing safety.
I will sign off on this one now before I get out of my depth and as you say it goes "wildly off topic".
Cheers,
Phillip
Not a Everest but should help answer the Op's question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wp1gF7DS4w
-- Edited by JackoFJR on Friday 8th of May 2020 08:22:37 PM