For the time I have been on the forum (12-18months) I have found topics/responses to weights "issues" confusing to say the least. So about 6months ago whilst in Darwin I went to the MVR (similar to RTA etc) and spent about an hour talking one on one to a "scaleee" at the test shed.....and came away even more confused than ever......so I assumed the prob was me.......and I will deal with it when the time comes to buy a tug/van.
Yesterday while looking at gold detecting vids on you tube I came across this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeKQ0N-DJw
and found his explanations very easy to follow.
Could people comment on his explanations.
If the link does NOT work ....it was xplorer oz LC200 gvm
cheers Bilbo.
Rob Driver said
03:36 PM Nov 15, 2020
Hi Bilbo
The video is basic good information.
Thought should be given to the modification with extra accessories to any vehicle that will be used for towing a caravan or large trailer.
The GVM of the Cruiser in overseas countries is 3800 as compared to our 3350. Why, no one seems to know.
Your post will cue our resident weights measures and modifications expert so be prepared to be just as confused as when you started.
If you do a search there is a topic on here that indicates all the ACCURATE details as listed by Lovells Springs if you want true information.
If you cant find it the best thing you might do for current info on GVM or GCM upgrades is to phone Lovells and ask.
Good luck
Regards
Rob
yobarr said
05:32 PM Nov 15, 2020
bilbo wrote:
For the time I have been on the forum (12-18months) I have found topics/responses to weights "issues" confusing to say the least. So about 6months ago whilst in Darwin I went to the MVR (similar to RTA etc) and spent about an hour talking one on one to a "scaleee" at the test shed.....and came away even more confused than ever......so I assumed the prob was me.......and I will deal with it when the time comes to buy a tug/van.
Yesterday while looking at gold detecting vids on you tube I came across this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeKQ0N-DJw
and found his explanations very easy to follow.
Could people comment on his explanations.
If the link does NOT work ....it was xplorer oz LC200 gvm
cheers Bilbo.
Hi Doug....Since the vehicle in the video is an LC200,I will discuss this misunderstood and greatly over rated car.The 3800kg GVM upgrade is a very good thing for those who wish to load their vehicle to extremes for long distance touring etc,but there are severe limitations if your aim is to tow a heavy van.The BIG problems are the short wheelbase and the lightweight rear axle,which has a factory capacity of only 1950kg.....this is only 20kg more than that of a VW Amarok,for example... and the Amarok weighs 800kg less at tare! Now,many people fork out thousands of dollars to get the much-adored but misunderstood 3800kg GVM upgrade......"Yay,we've solved our weight problems" they may say. Wrong.The rear axle capacity increases by a miserable 50kg,to only 2000kg.Yes,that is correct.The rear axle carrying capacity increases from 1950kg to only 2000kg.Why would you even bother? And if you then hook up a van with 350kg towball weight,you add well over 500kg to that lightweight rear axle,with around 170kg coming OFF the front axle and being transferred to the rear axle.This weight can never be returned. The maximum an LC200 can safely tow,even with the upgrade,is 3000kg. This is a brief outline of the limitations of this particular vehicle,and the information contained within is indesputable,but if you would like detailed information,and drawings,please let me know and I will try to find time to help you.Weights are a minefield for the uninitiated,and the problems get worse when well-intentioned,but ill-informed, individuals try to "help". Weights are easily understood by those who are willing to listen,and learn.Good luck! Cheers
P.S If you want a Landcruiser that can safely and legally tow 3500kg,the only option is a 70 series.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 05:57:31 PM
Thanks for yr responses Rob/Chris..........the "youtuber" did NOT mention rear axle capacity at all.
When the time gets closer to "cheque writing" I will run prospective tugs and vans past members on the forum.
The first two objectives are that 1) they are safe and 2) they are legal.
It does appear that when making these decisions that you consider both the van and vehicle and how much you intend to carry in both ..very very carefully and realistically.
cheers Bilbo
yobarr said
07:59 PM Nov 15, 2020
bilbo wrote:
Thanks for yr responses Rob/Chris..........the "youtuber" did NOT mention rear axle capacity at all.
When the time gets closer to "cheque writing" I will run prospective tugs and vans past members on the forum.
The first two objectives are that 1) they are safe and 2) they are legal.
It does appear that when making these decisions that you consider both the van and vehicle and how much you intend to carry in both ..very very carefully and realistically.
cheers Bilbo
Hi Doug...it is great to see that you have noted that,very conveniently,rear axle capacity is never mentioned when these upgrades are discussed.This is how so many people are led to believe that their chosen vehicle can do things that it simply cannot do,and never was designed to do. Almost invariably,the low rear axle carrying capacity is the stumbling block.Another glaring example is the Ram 1500,and a claimed "4500kg towing capacity".With a ridiculously low 1770kg capacity rear axle,that car can never safely tow more than around 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Same applies to the lightweight, twincab,utilities that abound,and their claimed "3500kg towing".These vehicles are only capable of safely towing 3500kg as a DOG trailer, which is how their salesmen justify the claims,and sell to unwitting purchasers.Cheers
P.S When you start to get serious about your purchase,always remember that,if safety is of any concern,the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% GREATER than the weight on the van's wheels.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 08:25:29 PM
bilbo said
12:08 PM Nov 16, 2020
OK, so how can I work out/establish how the weight on the cars wheels is 10% greater than the weight of a van on its wheels??? (is it simply comparing tare weights of both (and making a "guesstimate" of both car and van axle weights???)
Apart from a broken axle......why are the rear axle "loads" important?? (is it just because thats what they are designed/engineered for?? ) .........
cheers Bilbo
Radar said
01:34 PM Nov 16, 2020
bilbo wrote:
OK, so how can I work out/establish how the weight on the cars wheels is 10% greater than the weight of a van on its wheels??? (is it simply comparing tare weights of both (and making a "guesstimate" of both car and van axle weights???)
Individual weigh the car and then the trailer, guessing will never work.
Apart from a broken axle......why are the rear axle "loads" important?? (is it just because thats what they are designed/engineered for?? ) .........
cheers Bilbo
Its a bit like a plastic bag, place 4 large full beer bottles into it and if you are lucky the handle will break first or bottom will let go.
So sad about the beer.
All parts in your car are engineered to carry X, more you will certainly shorten the cars life very quickly.
Now look at that heavy transport going past, the trailer axles are probably rated at 10000 kilograms each but that axle by law is regulated to 80000 kilograms or a group of 3 called a tri is only good for 20000 kilograms.
yobarr said
01:35 PM Nov 16, 2020
bilbo wrote:
OK, so how can I work out/establish how the weight on the cars wheels is 10% greater than the weight of a van on its wheels??? (is it simply comparing tare weights of both (and making a "guesstimate" of both car and van axle weights???)
Apart from a broken axle......why are the rear axle "loads" important?? (is it just because thats what they are designed/engineered for?? ) .........
cheers Bilbo
Hi Doug....This a screen shot of a reply I wrote,but couldn't send.Hope it helps? Cheers
There are many confliction when it comes weights, and these revolve around opinion and facts. Like towball weight a ,minimum 10% is an opinion not a fact, some vehicle manufactures specify lower max towbars weights. Likewise the tow vehicle must be heavier than the towed load again this is an opinion, that is not supported any legal requirement.
Maccanak said
04:25 PM Nov 19, 2020
Download my calculator and add your gear in.
You can find your weights (approximately) including your axle loads.
-- Edited by Maccanak on Thursday 19th of November 2020 04:38:57 PM
yobarr said
04:35 PM Nov 19, 2020
Gundog wrote:
There are many confliction when it comes weights, and these revolve around opinion and facts. Like towball weight a ,minimum 10% is an opinion not a fact, some vehicle manufactures specify lower max towbars weights. Likewise the tow vehicle must be heavier than the towed load again this is an opinion, that is not supported any legal requirement.
Graham,10% is not an opinion,but rather simple physics in action.Manufacturers who specify lower towbar weights are often builders of monocoque construction vehicles,with their associated limitations.Towball weight of 10%/is NOT an opinion,but simple physics in action. If a manufacturer specifies a towball weight lower than 10%,you can be sure that the vehicle is simply too lightly built to do the job.Likewise,having the car heavier than the van is critical,if safety is of any concern.....to help you understand this,you might like to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,that vehicle cannot tow a trailer (van) that is heavier than the towing vehicle.Again,simple physics in action.The sooner a similar law is brought in,to stop idiots towing 3500kg vans with lightweight utes etc,the better.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of November 2020 05:05:40 PM
There are many confliction when it comes weights, and these revolve around opinion and facts. Like towball weight a ,minimum 10% is an opinion not a fact, some vehicle manufactures specify lower max towbars weights. Likewise the tow vehicle must be heavier than the towed load again this is an opinion, that is not supported any legal requirement.
Graham,10% is not an opinion,but rather simple physics in action.Manufacturers who specify lower towbar weights are often builders of monocoque construction vehicles,with their associated limitations.Towball weight of 10%/is NOT an opinion,but simple physics in action. If a manufacturer specifies a towball weight lower than 10%,you can be sure that the vehicle is simply too lightly built to do the job.Likewise,having the car heavier than the van is critical,if safety is of any concern.....to help you understand this,you might like to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,that vehicle cannot tow a trailer (van) that is heavier than the towing vehicle.Again,simple physics in action.The sooner a similar law is brought in,to stop idiots towing 3500kg vans with lightweight utes etc,the better.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of November 2020 05:05:40 PM
Absolutely agree.
There are ratings and there is common sense.....both must be adhered to.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's safe.
Radar said
09:12 PM Nov 19, 2020
Yobarr,
where is photos of a few damaged Landcruisers towing caravans?
Gundog said
10:25 AM Nov 20, 2020
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
There are many confliction when it comes weights, and these revolve around opinion and facts. Like towball weight a ,minimum 10% is an opinion not a fact, some vehicle manufactures specify lower max towbars weights. Likewise the tow vehicle must be heavier than the towed load again this is an opinion, that is not supported any legal requirement.
Graham,10% is not an opinion,but rather simple physics in action.Manufacturers who specify lower towbar weights are often builders of monocoque construction vehicles,with their associated limitations.Towball weight of 10%/is NOT an opinion,but simple physics in action. If a manufacturer specifies a towball weight lower than 10%,you can be sure that the vehicle is simply too lightly built to do the job.Likewise,having the car heavier than the van is critical,if safety is of any concern.....to help you understand this,you might like to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,that vehicle cannot tow a trailer (van) that is heavier than the towing vehicle.Again,simple physics in action.The sooner a similar law is brought in,to stop idiots towing 3500kg vans with lightweight utes etc,the better.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of November 2020 05:05:40 PM
Here we go again we roll out the old physics response, dragging out another chestnut vehicles above 4500kg yada yada, is not revelent to those under 4500kg, everything you have posted is OPINION.
My vehicle has a chassis and my owners manual limits my ball weight to 250kg with a towing capacity of 3000kg, I think I will believe Ford Australia before you.
yobarr said
11:06 AM Nov 20, 2020
Gundog wrote:
Here we go again we roll out the old physics response, dragging out another chestnut vehicles above 4500kg yada yada, is not revelent to those under 4500kg, everything you have posted is OPINION.
My vehicle has a chassis and my owners manual limits my ball weight to 250kg with a towing capacity of 3000kg, I think I will believe Ford Australia before you.
Hi Graham...You have been reading my posts for long enough to realise that I have a reasonable grasp of weights,but you seem not to understand that towing capacity has little to do with towball weight.The fact that your car has a towball rating of 250kg,but can tow 3000kg,means little except that the car can tow 3000kg as a DOG trailer.We get the same stuff sprouted about the Ram 1500 and its 4500kg towing capacity and 450kg towball capacity.....yeah,right.With a 1770kg rear axle capacity,that car can never safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer.The only way it can safely tow 4500kg is if the trailer is a DOG trailer.When challenged about towing capacity,manufacturers can use this as an "out". Now we can address your comment about ".....chestnut vehicles above 4500kg yada yada". You seem not to understand that I simply asked members to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,any PIG trailer it tows must weigh less than the towing vehicle.It's called physics,and is designed to stop the tail wagging the dog.......and the sooner a law is enacted to stop drivers of ALL vehicles from towing PIG trailers that are heavier than the towing vehicle/car,the safer we all will be.Once again,simple physics.People who waffle-on about "......done 2 million kms in my 2500kg car,towing my 3500kg caravan with 100kg ball weight,no problems mate....you just gotta drive to the conditions" are living in Lala land.Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management.Hope this helps,and I look forward to your answer to my question about the reasons for the towing laws for vehicles above 4500kg GVM,and why you think such a law should not apply to ALL towing vehicles. Cheers..
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 20th of November 2020 05:23:32 PM
For the time I have been on the forum (12-18months) I have found topics/responses to weights "issues" confusing to say the least. So about 6months ago whilst in Darwin I went to the MVR (similar to RTA etc) and spent about an hour talking one on one to a "scaleee" at the test shed.....and came away even more confused than ever......so I assumed the prob was me.......and I will deal with it when the time comes to buy a tug/van.
Yesterday while looking at gold detecting vids on you tube I came across this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeKQ0N-DJw
and found his explanations very easy to follow.
Could people comment on his explanations.
If the link does NOT work ....it was xplorer oz LC200 gvm
cheers Bilbo.
The video is basic good information.
Thought should be given to the modification with extra accessories to any vehicle that will be used for towing a caravan or large trailer.
The GVM of the Cruiser in overseas countries is 3800 as compared to our 3350. Why, no one seems to know.
Your post will cue our resident weights measures and modifications expert so be prepared to be just as confused as when you started.
If you do a search there is a topic on here that indicates all the ACCURATE details as listed by Lovells Springs if you want true information.
If you cant find it the best thing you might do for current info on GVM or GCM upgrades is to phone Lovells and ask.
Good luck
Regards
Rob
Hi Doug....Since the vehicle in the video is an LC200,I will discuss this misunderstood and greatly over rated car.The 3800kg GVM upgrade is a very good thing for those who wish to load their vehicle to extremes for long distance touring etc,but there are severe limitations if your aim is to tow a heavy van.The BIG problems are the short wheelbase and the lightweight rear axle,which has a factory capacity of only 1950kg.....this is only 20kg more than that of a VW Amarok,for example... and the Amarok weighs 800kg less at tare! Now,many people fork out thousands of dollars to get the much-adored but misunderstood 3800kg GVM upgrade......"Yay,we've solved our weight problems" they may say. Wrong.The rear axle capacity increases by a miserable 50kg,to only 2000kg.Yes,that is correct.The rear axle carrying capacity increases from 1950kg to only 2000kg.Why would you even bother? And if you then hook up a van with 350kg towball weight,you add well over 500kg to that lightweight rear axle,with around 170kg coming OFF the front axle and being transferred to the rear axle.This weight can never be returned. The maximum an LC200 can safely tow,even with the upgrade,is 3000kg. This is a brief outline of the limitations of this particular vehicle,and the information contained within is indesputable,but if you would like detailed information,and drawings,please let me know and I will try to find time to help you.Weights are a minefield for the uninitiated,and the problems get worse when well-intentioned,but ill-informed, individuals try to "help". Weights are easily understood by those who are willing to listen,and learn.Good luck! Cheers
P.S If you want a Landcruiser that can safely and legally tow 3500kg,the only option is a 70 series.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 05:57:31 PM
Thanks for yr responses Rob/Chris..........the "youtuber" did NOT mention rear axle capacity at all.
When the time gets closer to "cheque writing" I will run prospective tugs and vans past members on the forum.
The first two objectives are that 1) they are safe and 2) they are legal.
It does appear that when making these decisions that you consider both the van and vehicle and how much you intend to carry in both ..very very carefully and realistically.
cheers Bilbo
Hi Doug...it is great to see that you have noted that,very conveniently,rear axle capacity is never mentioned when these upgrades are discussed.This is how so many people are led to believe that their chosen vehicle can do things that it simply cannot do,and never was designed to do. Almost invariably,the low rear axle carrying capacity is the stumbling block.Another glaring example is the Ram 1500,and a claimed "4500kg towing capacity".With a ridiculously low 1770kg capacity rear axle,that car can never safely tow more than around 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Same applies to the lightweight, twincab,utilities that abound,and their claimed "3500kg towing".These vehicles are only capable of safely towing 3500kg as a DOG trailer, which is how their salesmen justify the claims,and sell to unwitting purchasers.Cheers
P.S When you start to get serious about your purchase,always remember that,if safety is of any concern,the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% GREATER than the weight on the van's wheels.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 08:25:29 PM
OK, so how can I work out/establish how the weight on the cars wheels is 10% greater than the weight of a van on its wheels??? (is it simply comparing tare weights of both (and making a "guesstimate" of both car and van axle weights???)
Apart from a broken axle......why are the rear axle "loads" important?? (is it just because thats what they are designed/engineered for?? ) .........
cheers Bilbo
Its a bit like a plastic bag, place 4 large full beer bottles into it and if you are lucky the handle will break first or bottom will let go.
So sad about the beer.
All parts in your car are engineered to carry X, more you will certainly shorten the cars life very quickly.
Now look at that heavy transport going past, the trailer axles are probably rated at 10000 kilograms each but that axle by law is regulated to 80000 kilograms or a group of 3 called a tri is only good for 20000 kilograms.
Hi Doug....This a screen shot of a reply I wrote,but couldn't send.Hope it helps? Cheers
Download my calculator and add your gear in.
You can find your weights (approximately) including your axle loads.
thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t67148067/simple-weights-calculator-for-car-axle-loads-and-caravan/
Few posts down is the latest rev.
Cheers
-- Edited by Maccanak on Thursday 19th of November 2020 04:38:57 PM
There are many confliction when it comes weights, and these revolve around opinion and facts. Like towball weight a ,minimum 10% is an opinion not a fact, some vehicle manufactures specify lower max towbars weights. Likewise the tow vehicle must be heavier than the towed load again this is an opinion, that is not supported any legal requirement.
Graham,10% is not an opinion,but rather simple physics in action.Manufacturers who specify lower towbar weights are often builders of monocoque construction vehicles,with their associated limitations.Towball weight of 10%/is NOT an opinion,but simple physics in action. If a manufacturer specifies a towball weight lower than 10%,you can be sure that the vehicle is simply too lightly built to do the job.Likewise,having the car heavier than the van is critical,if safety is of any concern.....to help you understand this,you might like to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,that vehicle cannot tow a trailer (van) that is heavier than the towing vehicle.Again,simple physics in action.The sooner a similar law is brought in,to stop idiots towing 3500kg vans with lightweight utes etc,the better.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of November 2020 05:05:40 PM
Absolutely agree.
There are ratings and there is common sense.....both must be adhered to.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's safe.
Yobarr,
where is photos of a few damaged Landcruisers towing caravans?
Here we go again we roll out the old physics response, dragging out another chestnut vehicles above 4500kg yada yada, is not revelent to those under 4500kg, everything you have posted is OPINION.
My vehicle has a chassis and my owners manual limits my ball weight to 250kg with a towing capacity of 3000kg, I think I will believe Ford Australia before you.
Hi Graham...You have been reading my posts for long enough to realise that I have a reasonable grasp of weights,but you seem not to understand that towing capacity has little to do with towball weight.The fact that your car has a towball rating of 250kg,but can tow 3000kg,means little except that the car can tow 3000kg as a DOG trailer.We get the same stuff sprouted about the Ram 1500 and its 4500kg towing capacity and 450kg towball capacity.....yeah,right.With a 1770kg rear axle capacity,that car can never safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer.The only way it can safely tow 4500kg is if the trailer is a DOG trailer.When challenged about towing capacity,manufacturers can use this as an "out". Now we can address your comment about ".....chestnut vehicles above 4500kg yada yada". You seem not to understand that I simply asked members to investigate why,if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,any PIG trailer it tows must weigh less than the towing vehicle.It's called physics,and is designed to stop the tail wagging the dog.......and the sooner a law is enacted to stop drivers of ALL vehicles from towing PIG trailers that are heavier than the towing vehicle/car,the safer we all will be.Once again,simple physics.People who waffle-on about "......done 2 million kms in my 2500kg car,towing my 3500kg caravan with 100kg ball weight,no problems mate....you just gotta drive to the conditions" are living in Lala land.Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management.Hope this helps,and I look forward to your answer to my question about the reasons for the towing laws for vehicles above 4500kg GVM,and why you think such a law should not apply to ALL towing vehicles. Cheers..
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 20th of November 2020 05:23:32 PM