We've folded up the middle seats in our Pajero and I'm contemplating actually removing one of them, mainly as a weight saving. Anyone have links to road rules that either say it's clearly illegal? or that it's legal?
kgarnett said
09:43 AM Nov 21, 2020
If seats are permanently removed the vehicle will require certification. The regulation only mentions permanent removal so I assume if the removal is only temporary you may be OK but I also assume you would have to be able to convince/demonstate that it was only temporary.
4 REMOVAL OF SEAT(S) AND SEATBELT(S) TO REDUCE SEATING CAPACITY
Seats and seatbelts may be permanently removed to reduce seating capacity of the vehicle.
The vehicle must be certified to represent the new seating capacity. All holes in the bodywork must be blanked off.
Any removal of seats and/or seatbelts to achieve a reduction in seating capacity must not interfere with the vehicles Supplementary Restraint System (SRS).
For example removing a front seat and seatbelts with pre-tensioners may disarm the entire vehicle SRS and therefore would not be able to be certified.
If the reduction in seating capacity results in a change of vehicle category the signatory must show that the vehicle complies with all additional ADRs that may now apply to that vehicle.
Ken
-- Edited by kgarnett on Saturday 21st of November 2020 09:51:33 AM
-- Edited by kgarnett on Saturday 21st of November 2020 09:51:53 AM
We've folded up the middle seats in our Pajero and I'm contemplating actually removing one of them, mainly as a weight saving. Anyone have links to road rules that either say it's clearly illegal? or that it's legal?
Only illegal if you get caught I pulled mine out of my old prado and fitted a 65 litre fridge that fitted perfectly in the spot and at a good height also a fold up boat trailer and the gear for boat.
It opens up a lot of cargo area instead of carrying seats that never get used and I think every state might have there own law on this
cheers
Mike Harding said
01:32 PM Nov 21, 2020
As mentioned previously it likely makes the vehicle *technically* unroadworthy but then so, probably, does putting a registration sticker on the windscreen or hanging fluffy dice from the mirror (which should be a capital offence). Insurances companies cannot use such things as a get out; they have to show that what you did *materially* contributed to an accident.
I have been running seven seater 4WDs with only the driver and front passenger seat fitted for about 10 years and been pulled up for breathalysers a few time but the police have never commented.
I assume you will not be seating more than two in the vehicle which would be both illegal and stupid.
Cupie said
02:24 PM Nov 21, 2020
Like Mike, I have been running my 7 seater Patrol for 20 years without the 3rd row of seats & when on a van trip I remove the second row & fit tie downs using the seat securing bolts.
Of course a law abiding person like me is rarely pulled up by Constable Plod but on those rare occasions no mention is ever made of the seat removal. BTW, nor have insurance assessors after I rear ended a poor little micro.
Whenarewethere said
02:35 PM Nov 21, 2020
We take out the rear seat bases as we need a lond flat surface & they go back in as soon as they are not required to be out.
Also have stickers from National Parks from various states, Council parking permits, mechanic's service reminder, height of vehicle reminder, etag (large version) inside the windscreen. But they have all been placed carefully so the sun that comes around the edge of the useless visor is blocked. Not overly attractive from outside but they are there for safety, stopping glare.
Jaahn said
04:11 PM Nov 21, 2020
Hi Tony
My Sprinter MH is certified for 6 people with two x two seats in the back. However I have removed one set of 2 for extra space. Been like that for 5 years. The rego checker does not comment and never been pulled over for any offence but possibly breathalyser checked.
I will put them back in if the family wants to come too but have never needed more that 4 seats so never had to do that. Just do it and forget the unimportant details.
Jaahn
dabbler said
09:15 PM Nov 21, 2020
Legislation is a state or territory matter and how it fits with the relevant ADRs will vary. Whether seat rows are designed to be temporarily removed and how the laws treats this will also vary just as any replacement structure like shelving or drawers are viewed will vary. I do know some states don't quibble if everything is demonstrably temporary and reversible. That usually means leave seat belts installed but inaccessible. Check your specific state in case you get a surprise. However one thing common across the whole country, if you remove seating and want certification, you must remove seat belts. Personally, I see re-certification to reduced seating as a resale value killer.
Old and Grey said
10:36 PM Nov 21, 2020
Hi Tonyob,
We have a 2012 200 series GX Landcruiser licenced / registed as a 5 seater. The second row fold up and hooked to the grab handles.(Waste of space and needless weight.)
I removed the second row temporarily 24hours after getting it from the dealer (2012).
Just put them back in for the 3800 GVM upgrade in September this year, cause it had to go over the pits with five seats in it .
NEVER SELL the seats you remove because its only Temporary you SEE.
Next day Took them back out Temporarily again. Only ever out Temporarily if anyone ever asks.
What does Temporarlly mean.
Exactly that. Full Stop. Nothing else to say in any statement. You removed them, on this trip only, for this period away.
PS: Yes I created an extra 8 cargo tie down points for my rachet straps, plus the existing (4) mounted hook points where the seats locked into. Giving me a total of (12) tie downs points direct into the chassie proper. Plus hooking onto the cargo barrier. I to reused the seats mounting bolts as they came mounted in the car in the first place.
My 15hp outboard motor (37kg) is bolted and racheted to the floor behind the front seats. Out of sight forward of the rear axcel.
Grey
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Saturday 21st of November 2020 10:38:59 PM
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Saturday 21st of November 2020 10:40:05 PM
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Sunday 22nd of November 2020 09:22:14 AM
Kiwoz said
11:34 PM Nov 21, 2020
Tonyob,
6 years of Pajero with only front seats. The double seat in these buggies is heavy. Be sure to screw the bolts back into their holes and tape the guide pin holes as they can create a dust problem. The third row cavity is a great place for house battery and all those essential toys also.
All the best, B.
Warren-Pat_01 said
11:06 PM Nov 22, 2020
Hi tonyob,
In the 35 years that I had three Nissan Patrols, I removed the back seats to add camping gear, etc. I was never chattered by the authorities (but then SA & Qld don't have regular registration tests) in that time.
I kept the seats in the garage - came in handy when visitors came & I needed the seven seats again. The most time it took to restore the cars was 1/2 a day. Also when I sold the cars, they were sold as bought - seven seaters.
tonyob said
10:13 AM Nov 26, 2020
My wife opened up conversation with a local police office who was waiting in the queue with her at Subway about this issue. He said having a seat like ours temporarily removed is of no consequence to them. He did caution about whether it interferes with air bags. I'm assuming that only applies to the front passenger seat.
Possum3 said
12:41 PM Nov 26, 2020
travelyounger wrote:
I think every state might have there own law on this
The seating capacities and air bag deployments are not a State responsibility as such (Although State Police/RTA Officers can issue Defect Notice and or Fines). The vehicle must comply to National Vehicle Design Rules (VDR's) to be allowed on Australian roads.
Any vehicle private or commercially owned cannot legally change any vehicle fixture without correct Engineering Certification. This also applies to fitting of fixtures - that is why purchasing "Approved" fittings is paramount and Companies like ALKO, Clearview and such spent effort and money on having their products certified as "Approved".
Normally the local Plod will not bother with checking total VIN Compliance, some Highway Officers can be a little zealous (IE number plate heights), but any copper worth his salt can find a couple of defectable transgressions on any vehicle if needs arise.
Edit spelling.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Thursday 26th of November 2020 12:43:09 PM
tonyob said
10:36 PM Nov 28, 2020
Spoke also to our insurance company and they said there is no problem with it from their perspective.
We've folded up the middle seats in our Pajero and I'm contemplating actually removing one of them, mainly as a weight saving. Anyone have links to road rules that either say it's clearly illegal? or that it's legal?
If seats are permanently removed the vehicle will require certification. The regulation only mentions permanent removal so I assume if the removal is only temporary you may be OK but I also assume you would have to be able to convince/demonstate that it was only temporary.
Refer attached regulation :
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/NCOP7_Section_LK_Seating_and_Occupant_Protection_1Jan2011_v2.pdf
Page 18:
4 REMOVAL OF SEAT(S) AND SEATBELT(S) TO REDUCE SEATING CAPACITY
Seats and seatbelts may be permanently removed to reduce seating capacity of the vehicle.
The vehicle must be certified to represent the new seating capacity. All holes in the bodywork must be blanked off.
Any removal of seats and/or seatbelts to achieve a reduction in seating capacity must not interfere with the vehicles Supplementary Restraint System (SRS).
For example removing a front seat and seatbelts with pre-tensioners may disarm the entire vehicle SRS and therefore would not be able to be certified.
If the reduction in seating capacity results in a change of vehicle category the signatory must show that the vehicle complies with all additional ADRs that may now apply to that vehicle.
Ken
-- Edited by kgarnett on Saturday 21st of November 2020 09:51:33 AM
-- Edited by kgarnett on Saturday 21st of November 2020 09:51:53 AM
Only illegal if you get caught I pulled mine out of my old prado and fitted a 65 litre fridge that fitted perfectly in the spot and at a good height also a fold up boat trailer and the gear for boat.
It opens up a lot of cargo area instead of carrying seats that never get used and I think every state might have there own law on this
cheers
As mentioned previously it likely makes the vehicle *technically* unroadworthy but then so, probably, does putting a registration sticker on the windscreen or hanging fluffy dice from the mirror (which should be a capital offence). Insurances companies cannot use such things as a get out; they have to show that what you did *materially* contributed to an accident.
I have been running seven seater 4WDs with only the driver and front passenger seat fitted for about 10 years and been pulled up for breathalysers a few time but the police have never commented.
I assume you will not be seating more than two in the vehicle which would be both illegal and stupid.
Like Mike, I have been running my 7 seater Patrol for 20 years without the 3rd row of seats & when on a van trip I remove the second row & fit tie downs using the seat securing bolts.
Of course a law abiding person like me is rarely pulled up by Constable Plod but on those rare occasions no mention is ever made of the seat removal. BTW, nor have insurance assessors after I rear ended a poor little micro.
We take out the rear seat bases as we need a lond flat surface & they go back in as soon as they are not required to be out.
Also have stickers from National Parks from various states, Council parking permits, mechanic's service reminder, height of vehicle reminder, etag (large version) inside the windscreen. But they have all been placed carefully so the sun that comes around the edge of the useless visor is blocked. Not overly attractive from outside but they are there for safety, stopping glare.
Hi Tony
My Sprinter MH is certified for 6 people with two x two seats in the back. However I have removed one set of 2 for extra space. Been like that for 5 years. The rego checker does not comment and never been pulled over for any offence but possibly breathalyser checked.
I will put them back in if the family wants to come too but have never needed more that 4 seats so never had to do that.
Just do it and forget the unimportant details. 
Jaahn
Hi Tonyob,
We have a 2012 200 series GX Landcruiser licenced / registed as a 5 seater. The second row fold up and hooked to the grab handles.(Waste of space and needless weight.)
I removed the second row temporarily 24hours after getting it from the dealer (2012).
Just put them back in for the 3800 GVM upgrade in September this year, cause it had to go over the pits with five seats in it .
NEVER SELL the seats you remove because its only Temporary you SEE.
Next day Took them back out Temporarily again. Only ever out Temporarily if anyone ever asks.
What does Temporarlly mean.
Exactly that. Full Stop. Nothing else to say in any statement. You removed them, on this trip only, for this period away.
PS: Yes I created an extra 8 cargo tie down points for my rachet straps, plus the existing (4) mounted hook points where the seats locked into. Giving me a total of (12) tie downs points direct into the chassie proper. Plus hooking onto the cargo barrier. I to reused the seats mounting bolts as they came mounted in the car in the first place.
My 15hp outboard motor (37kg) is bolted and racheted to the floor behind the front seats. Out of sight forward of the rear axcel.
Grey
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Saturday 21st of November 2020 10:38:59 PM
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Saturday 21st of November 2020 10:40:05 PM
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Sunday 22nd of November 2020 09:22:14 AM
6 years of Pajero with only front seats. The double seat in these buggies is heavy. Be sure to screw the bolts back into their holes and tape the guide pin holes as they can create a dust problem. The third row cavity is a great place for house battery and all those essential toys also.
All the best, B.
In the 35 years that I had three Nissan Patrols, I removed the back seats to add camping gear, etc. I was never chattered by the authorities (but then SA & Qld don't have regular registration tests) in that time.
I kept the seats in the garage - came in handy when visitors came & I needed the seven seats again. The most time it took to restore the cars was 1/2 a day. Also when I sold the cars, they were sold as bought - seven seaters.
The seating capacities and air bag deployments are not a State responsibility as such (Although State Police/RTA Officers can issue Defect Notice and or Fines). The vehicle must comply to National Vehicle Design Rules (VDR's) to be allowed on Australian roads.
Any vehicle private or commercially owned cannot legally change any vehicle fixture without correct Engineering Certification. This also applies to fitting of fixtures - that is why purchasing "Approved" fittings is paramount and Companies like ALKO, Clearview and such spent effort and money on having their products certified as "Approved".
Normally the local Plod will not bother with checking total VIN Compliance, some Highway Officers can be a little zealous (IE number plate heights), but any copper worth his salt can find a couple of defectable transgressions on any vehicle if needs arise.
Edit spelling.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Thursday 26th of November 2020 12:43:09 PM