Do NOT, unless it is specifically described in the owner's manual with appropriate torques.
99% of vehicles specify threads to be "clean and dry".
Cheers,
Peter
Radar said
02:02 PM Jun 4, 2021
aussie_paul wrote:
Thoughts re lubricating wheel nuts?
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul.
I have been cleaning my wheel studs and nuts and applying very small amount of oil for ever (56 years). With the truck I carried a wire brush and boy did I cop some ribbing, pull the dip stick out to get some oil.
I would not pull a wheel off just to lubricate the nuts.
KJB said
02:38 PM Jun 4, 2021
Radar wrote:
aussie_paul wrote:
Thoughts re lubricating wheel nuts?
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul.
I have been cleaning my wheel studs and nuts and applying very small amount of oil for ever (56 years). With the truck I carried a wire brush and boy did I cop some ribbing, pull the dip stick out to get some oil.
I would not pull a wheel off just to lubricate the nuts.
Same here Radar - on trucks , trailers , earth movers , racing cars ......I have always (56 years ) used Anti-seize (Coppercoat ) on clean threads . lets the thread do its job without seizing or galling . Undoing is easy - release the tension with a bar and the the nut spins off , no rust , dirt , scale ....or swearing.
Buzz Lightbulb said
06:03 PM Jun 4, 2021
Wouldn't Loctite be better? My car's manual says NEVER lubricate the wheel nuts. Whereas Loctite keeps the thread free of dirt and rust, locks the nut and makes it easy to remove once it's seal is broken.
Whenarewethere said
06:35 PM Jun 4, 2021
I've had 2 cars each for 18 years, one was 7 years old when I bought it, the other was new.
Never had an issue with getting wheel nuts off, or any rust issues, I would always make sure the threads were clean & dry.
In the outback I never put the wheel nuts on the ground, to avoid dirt getting into them.
PeterD said
08:07 PM Jun 4, 2021
The torque values for tightening nut is always based on dry threads. As soon as you use liquids (oils or locktite) on the threads you need to calculate a new torque value. Just clean the threads off and tighten them as the engineers do.
erad said
11:22 PM Jun 4, 2021
A few years ago, I was in Copley in SA. I had just pulled in to refuel, and head a hissing sound from the rear tyre. It wasn't flat then, but by the time I had refueled, it was. I fitted the spare tyre and went straight to the local garage to get the puncture repaired. Short story long but the garage ground out too much rubber from the inside of the casing and next morning it was flat again, so I fitted the spare again and went back to the garage. They couldn't fix the tyre so I gave them an inner tube which I always carried as an emergency, and they fitted that. However, when removing the spare (yet again to fit the original tyre), the thread on one of the studs galled up halfway off. No way could I undo it to get the spare tyre off, so the garage man came over and eventually used a 6 ft lever on the end of my wheel wrench and broke the stud for me. Then, I couldn't get a new stud to fit there, so I finished up coming home on 5 studs instead of 6. Ever since then, I have used a smear of grease on the wheel studs to ensure that this would never happen again. I do however make sure that when tyre fitters are tightening the wheel nuts, they do no use a rattle gun. Thusfar, they have obliged and used a tension wrench to tighten the nuts.
iana said
11:02 AM Jun 5, 2021
Assuming we are discussing wheel nuts only as opposed to tightening nuts in general, some of the statements here indicate general. There are two sides to every story. I for one lubricate the studs, then do them up using wrist torque, or as I did this week when getting two new tires, checked how the fitter tightens the wheel nuts getting them to torque them up. I worked as a motor mechanic at one stage, and had to use a rattle gun for the job. Now a rattle gun has three settings 1? 2? and 3?, in other words no idea how tight the nut is being done up. With practice and feel one can avoid over tightening. But if you get a new guy on the job who doesn't give a dam, he can tighten the studs up to shearing point.
So if you take your car into be serviced and for tire fitment, not doing your own thing, then no lubricant, but if you do your own thing, then lubricant is a good thing. Any metal surface moving against another should have lubricant.
I agree torque values are different, but lubricant helps prevent the threads from binding, and helps stop corrosion on the exposed threads.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:05 AM Jun 5, 2021
It is wonderful that we have people here who know more about these things than the engineers who designed the vehicles.
Cheers,
Peter
KJB said
11:11 AM Jun 5, 2021
iana wrote:
Assuming we are discussing wheel nuts only as opposed to tightening nuts in general, some of the statements here indicate general. There are two sides to every story. I for one lubricate the studs, then do them up using wrist torque, or as I did this week when getting two new tires, checked how the fitter tightens the wheel nuts getting them to torque them up. I worked as a motor mechanic at one stage, and had to use a rattle gun for the job. Now a rattle gun has three settings 1? 2? and 3?, in other words no idea how tight the nut is being done up. With practice and feel one can avoid over tightening. But if you get a new guy on the job who doesn't give a dam, he can tighten the studs up to shearing point. So if you take your car into be serviced and for tire fitment, not doing your own thing, then no lubricant, but if you do your own thing, then lubricant is a good thing. Any metal surface moving against another should have lubricant. I agree torque values are different, but lubricant helps prevent the threads from binding, and helps stop corrosion on the exposed threads.
In other words - "No lubricant" is the "Default" setting ..... to protect against inexperienced operators........ I agree.
iana said
11:25 AM Jun 5, 2021
There is one important point. Never allow lubricant on the conical surface between the wheel alloy rim and the nut. The lubricant can squeeze out , or dry, reducing the tightening effect of the nuts. How do I know this, in my early years I worked on aircraft. One job was fitting props, these had cones that wedged between the prop hub and the crankshaft. it was forbidden to lubricate these cones for that reason.
Bicyclecamper said
02:28 PM Jun 5, 2021
KJB wrote:
Radar wrote:
aussie_paul wrote:
Thoughts re lubricating wheel nuts?
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul.
I have been cleaning my wheel studs and nuts and applying very small amount of oil for ever (56 years). With the truck I carried a wire brush and boy did I cop some ribbing, pull the dip stick out to get some oil.
I would not pull a wheel off just to lubricate the nuts.
Same here Radar - on trucks , trailers , earth movers , racing cars ......I have always (56 years ) used Anti-seize (Coppercoat ) on clean threads . lets the thread do its job without seizing or galling . Undoing is easy - release the tension with a bar and the the nut spins off , no rust , dirt , scale ....or swearing.
I use the same thing, Coppercoat. When I was in the army, I was moonlighting at Qantas Base in Sydney, for a 2 year period, and we used Coppercoat on all the wheelnuts on the planes, so started doing it on my vehicles. It was also done in the army, but using other grease, usually Marine. I still a half a kilo, of Coppercoat today, and do all the wheels I have on all my vehicles. After I put it on and do the nuts up, I wipe off the excess, so no dirt and grit, attaches to the outside threads.
Izabarack said
03:58 PM Jun 5, 2021
My interest in whether or not to lubricate threads goes back to a 70s discussion with an engineer working for Locktite. He convinced me of the considerations in deciding. Not lubricating likely leads to uncertain torque numbers, particularly when reusing a thread. Unless specifically documented, critical fastenings should be cleaned, lubricated, and torqued to manufacturer specifications. I worked on a lot of aircraft, particularly Helicopters, where a nut working loose in flight is likely to result in serious outcomes and was always required to lubricate before torqueing. I am yet to see a car manufacturer requirement to use dry threads. Note that I have never seen dry threads written anywhere for the vehicles I have worked on. Porsche 911 engine repair manual specifies lubricating before re-assembly. Jet engines require Anti-seize on any of the hot stuff. On my vehicles, all my wheel nuts are torqued on clean, anti-seize coated threads. I am too concerned about things coming loose at the wrong time to do otherwise.
-- Edited by Izabarack on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:04:26 PM
Eaglemax said
04:31 PM Jun 5, 2021
The quite common and very cheap sunraysia wheel and any other Chinese wheel has soft steel. I found this out when I nearly lost a wheel. I was lucky to hear the wheel wobble as I don't have a radio or any other noises in my car. 5 new studs needed and a new wheel.
So I use a tension wrench on the 10 nuts before heading off from camp and often a nut will need such tensioning up.
Only takes 30 seconds
Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:33:16 PM
oldbloke said
07:11 PM Jun 5, 2021
Wire brush and a drop or two of oil.
Are We Lost said
07:52 PM Jun 5, 2021
Izabarack wrote:
........ I am yet to see a car manufacturer requirement to use dry threads. ......
-- Edited by Izabarack on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:04:26 PM
The Ford Ranger Owners Handbook specifies no lubricant.
For those who recommend lubricating the threads, how do you determine the required torque?
........ I am yet to see a car manufacturer requirement to use dry threads. ......
-- Edited by Izabarack on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:04:26 PM
The Ford Ranger Owners Handbook specifies no lubricant.
For those who recommend lubricating the threads, how do you determine the required torque?
Something to do with experience, 56 years o f motoring and never losing a wheel.
iana said
09:25 PM Jun 5, 2021
If that article is from the Ford Ranger manual, then it does indeed specify no lubricant, but it says nothing about altering the torque value, but says that lubricant can cause the wheel nuts to come loose. This is because the application of lubricant is inserting a layer between the surfaces, as this layer is squeezed out, or dries out the space it occupied is reduced, and so the tightness of the nuts is reduced. "This can cause the lugs to loosen while driving" unquote.
Its more about litigation than tightening the wheel nuts, if the car companies said you can lubricate the studs etc, and a wheel came loose, the company could be taken to court for writing that. Its better to say nothing, they don't care about sheared studs, or the studs being so corroded they can't be removed.
My post above was implying that about having lubricant on the cone surfaces between the nuts and rims.
Eaglemax said
10:27 PM Jun 5, 2021
In 1976 I put wheel on HJ holdens in Elizabeth SA. No lube used. I don't think any manufacturer puts lube on them either. Why would we?
Jaahn said
10:11 AM Jun 6, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
It is wonderful that we have people here who know more about these things than the engineers who designed the vehicles.
Cheers, Peter
Hmm
Possibly or possibly not !
I think there are several things to add. Vehicle wheel studs and nuts are usually well formed and high tensile steel, this reduces the likelyhood of galling and pickup. Perhaps the caravan studs and nuts are not made of such good stuff and are more likely to gall and sieze.
I have always lubed the studs and nuts on vehicles I use and also the ones I worked on when I was a plant mechanic. I always hand tightened them. Never had any problem over many many years. I will say these days on my new car i usually just give them a spray of WD which is only just lube and some preservation from rust etc.
With regard to lubing the taper seat. It was my teaching that you never use anything on a taper that you want to 'lock' and transmit power. But I do not see that is the case with the tapered seat on a wheel nut. With some wheel nuts if you do not lube them you will never get them off. I have broken factory spanners removing some taper nuts. So I have always lubed them with molly grease. Hand tightened with a suitable wrench whatever the size.
Just for interest I have spent some weeks in the past doing research on torque applied to nuts on roof bolts vs tension developed in the bolt. Using different nut 'fits' and bolt machine 'fits' to determine safety limits. Then also using different washers under the nuts including mild steel, hardened steel, and roller thrust washers to investigate the variations in the tension vs torque applied. This was all to do with seeing how the variables could be controlled because the mine roof bolts are fitted by a machine in a very short time frame. The other end is machine inserted in a drilled hole with quick setting epoxy that sets in a minute before the bolt is tightened !
Cheers Jaahn
iana said
10:29 AM Jun 6, 2021
I wonder how many of the "Non Lubists " use WD 40, or other penetrants to get the wheel nuts off. Do you wash the studs down with kero ? these will act as lubricants, so will fine dust e.g. graphite powder. I think the torque settings as listed will have a safety factor that allows both lubricated or dry threads to be safely tightened.
Aus-Kiwi said
01:33 PM Jun 6, 2021
Always used graphite grease . The taper of the nut helps, assume the tighter the better the taper works . Our issue has been undoing the nuts !
Dicko1 said
07:34 PM Jun 6, 2021
I used to travel the Central Arnhem Hwy regularly for many years. The fine dust would get into any crack or crevise. Numerous water crossings would see plenty of people with seized wheel nuts or broken studs. Combination of dust, heat and water was a recipe for many cases of snapped studs. I always used an anti seize paste on the threads and never had an issue. Flat tyres were common but never had difficulty removing the wheel. Everything was done by "feel"...no torque wrenches. I use the anti seize on all my trailers and cars and it still works fine.
Izabarack said
09:04 PM Jun 6, 2021
Using a (torque) wrench causes two inclined planes to slide against each other and ultimately stretch the bolt. Lubricated threads more certainly achieve the design spec in the absence of confounding factors like friction and metal galling giving false results. The wing bolts on DC3 aircraft are tensioned using a micrometer, as an example of length increase showing the action of torquing a bolt. Metallurgy might be a reason for relying on dry torquing to achieve design torque, if the metal is slippery enough but specifying torque is a critical safety consideration, so, my perspective is that specified torque values can only be achieved if the bearing surfaces can move against each other freely. Without knowing what exactly is going on at the bearing surfaces inside a thread dry threads must be suspect. In the case of a Ranger, close enough must be good enough.
Eaglemax said
10:02 PM Jun 6, 2021
I'm finding all this information interesting and education but... I just can't get my head around manufacturers not using any fluids/greases at all.
Surely they would know best? Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Sunday 6th of June 2021 10:03:28 PM
erad said
08:47 AM Jun 7, 2021
Manufacturers can use dry unlubricated threads for 2 reasons:
1 Their environment is clean and they are using new products, and
2 To use a lube on the threads could be messy and more expensive.
Tightening threads in the real world is a totally different matter. The only way you can get a reliable tension into a bolt is to physically measure the bolt extension (typically with a dial gauge). This then allows you to assess the actual tension in the shank of the bolt. That is impractical for all but critical bolt installations. The next best method is to use lubrication. Light machine oil is usually recommended although a thin smear of grease on wheel studs will do just about as well. Lubricating the threads reduces the variability of the friction component, and makes for a more reliable clamping. Tightening a dry thread the friction can vary enormously. Where manufacturers specify dry tightening, they have probably made allowances in the recommended torque that the tension in the bolt shank will not be excessive.
Interestingly, I have checked the workshop manual for my vehicles (both Mitsubishi) and they give a tightening torque but make no reference to lubricating the threads. Therefore I assume that they are talking about tightening the threads dry. The figures given were 110 Nm (81 ft-lb). Years ago I had a Triumph 2000 which the workshop manual specified torques for every bolt in the car. They said 60 ft-lbs for the wheel nuts, but lubricated threads. I tightened the bolts to this figure, and then went round and tightened them again by hand because to me this felt far too loose. However, the 60 ft lbs figure would probable give the same bolt tension as the 81 ft lbs of my Pajero, the Pajero having 6 bolts vs 4 of the Triumph.
JackoFJR said
09:00 AM Jun 7, 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7UDy7B0-m8
Aussie1 said
10:18 AM Jun 7, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
It is wonderful that we have people here who know more about these things than the engineers who designed the vehicles.
Cheers,
Peter
Have to agree on that point. A bit like "Caravan polish" information
erad said
06:49 PM Jun 7, 2021
JackoFJR's link is very good, Normally, this guy has the same effect on me as laxettes, and indeed it was the same this time, but everything he said is spot on. I thoroughly endorse what he has said about bolt tightening.
Thoughts re lubricating wheel nuts?
Aussie Paul.
99% of vehicles specify threads to be "clean and dry".
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Paul.
I have been cleaning my wheel studs and nuts and applying very small amount of oil for ever (56 years). With the truck I carried a wire brush and boy did I cop some ribbing, pull the dip stick out to get some oil.
I would not pull a wheel off just to lubricate the nuts.
Same here Radar - on trucks , trailers , earth movers , racing cars ......I have always (56 years ) used Anti-seize (Coppercoat ) on clean threads . lets the thread do its job without seizing or galling . Undoing is easy - release the tension with a bar and the the nut spins off , no rust , dirt , scale ....or swearing.
Wouldn't Loctite be better? My car's manual says NEVER lubricate the wheel nuts. Whereas Loctite keeps the thread free of dirt and rust, locks the nut and makes it easy to remove once it's seal is broken.
I've had 2 cars each for 18 years, one was 7 years old when I bought it, the other was new.
Never had an issue with getting wheel nuts off, or any rust issues, I would always make sure the threads were clean & dry.
In the outback I never put the wheel nuts on the ground, to avoid dirt getting into them.
So if you take your car into be serviced and for tire fitment, not doing your own thing, then no lubricant, but if you do your own thing, then lubricant is a good thing. Any metal surface moving against another should have lubricant.
I agree torque values are different, but lubricant helps prevent the threads from binding, and helps stop corrosion on the exposed threads.
It is wonderful that we have people here who know more about these things than the engineers who designed the vehicles.
Cheers,
Peter
In other words - "No lubricant" is the "Default" setting ..... to protect against inexperienced operators........ I agree.
I use the same thing, Coppercoat. When I was in the army, I was moonlighting at Qantas Base in Sydney, for a 2 year period, and we used Coppercoat on all the wheelnuts on the planes, so started doing it on my vehicles. It was also done in the army, but using other grease, usually Marine. I still a half a kilo, of Coppercoat today, and do all the wheels I have on all my vehicles. After I put it on and do the nuts up, I wipe off the excess, so no dirt and grit, attaches to the outside threads.
My interest in whether or not to lubricate threads goes back to a 70s discussion with an engineer working for Locktite. He convinced me of the considerations in deciding. Not lubricating likely leads to uncertain torque numbers, particularly when reusing a thread. Unless specifically documented, critical fastenings should be cleaned, lubricated, and torqued to manufacturer specifications. I worked on a lot of aircraft, particularly Helicopters, where a nut working loose in flight is likely to result in serious outcomes and was always required to lubricate before torqueing. I am yet to see a car manufacturer requirement to use dry threads. Note that I have never seen dry threads written anywhere for the vehicles I have worked on. Porsche 911 engine repair manual specifies lubricating before re-assembly. Jet engines require Anti-seize on any of the hot stuff. On my vehicles, all my wheel nuts are torqued on clean, anti-seize coated threads. I am too concerned about things coming loose at the wrong time to do otherwise.
-- Edited by Izabarack on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:04:26 PM
The quite common and very cheap sunraysia wheel and any other Chinese wheel has soft steel. I found this out when I nearly lost a wheel. I was lucky to hear the wheel wobble as I don't have a radio or any other noises in my car. 5 new studs needed and a new wheel.
So I use a tension wrench on the 10 nuts before heading off from camp and often a nut will need such tensioning up.
Only takes 30 seconds
Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Saturday 5th of June 2021 04:33:16 PM
The Ford Ranger Owners Handbook specifies no lubricant.
For those who recommend lubricating the threads, how do you determine the required torque?
Something to do with experience, 56 years o f motoring and never losing a wheel.
Its more about litigation than tightening the wheel nuts, if the car companies said you can lubricate the studs etc, and a wheel came loose, the company could be taken to court for writing that. Its better to say nothing, they don't care about sheared studs, or the studs being so corroded they can't be removed.
My post above was implying that about having lubricant on the cone surfaces between the nuts and rims.
Hmm
Possibly or possibly not !
I think there are several things to add. Vehicle wheel studs and nuts are usually well formed and high tensile steel, this reduces the likelyhood of galling and pickup. Perhaps the caravan studs and nuts are not made of such good stuff and are more likely to gall and sieze.
I have always lubed the studs and nuts on vehicles I use and also the ones I worked on when I was a plant mechanic. I always hand tightened them. Never had any problem over many many years. I will say these days on my new car i usually just give them a spray of WD which is only just lube and some preservation from rust etc.
With regard to lubing the taper seat. It was my teaching that you never use anything on a taper that you want to 'lock' and transmit power. But I do not see that is the case with the tapered seat on a wheel nut. With some wheel nuts if you do not lube them you will never get them off. I have broken factory spanners removing some taper nuts. So I have always lubed them with molly grease. Hand tightened with a suitable wrench whatever the size.
Just for interest I have spent some weeks in the past doing research on torque applied to nuts on roof bolts vs tension developed in the bolt. Using different nut 'fits' and bolt machine 'fits' to determine safety limits. Then also using different washers under the nuts including mild steel, hardened steel, and roller thrust washers to investigate the variations in the tension vs torque applied. This was all to do with seeing how the variables could be controlled because the mine roof bolts are fitted by a machine in a very short time frame. The other end is machine inserted in a drilled hole with quick setting epoxy that sets in a minute before the bolt is tightened !
Cheers Jaahn
I wonder how many of the "Non Lubists
" use WD 40, or other penetrants to get the wheel nuts off. Do you wash the studs down with kero ? these will act as lubricants, so will fine dust e.g. graphite powder. I think the torque settings as listed will have a safety factor that allows both lubricated or dry threads to be safely tightened.
Using a (torque) wrench causes two inclined planes to slide against each other and ultimately stretch the bolt. Lubricated threads more certainly achieve the design spec in the absence of confounding factors like friction and metal galling giving false results. The wing bolts on DC3 aircraft are tensioned using a micrometer, as an example of length increase showing the action of torquing a bolt. Metallurgy might be a reason for relying on dry torquing to achieve design torque, if the metal is slippery enough but specifying torque is a critical safety consideration, so, my perspective is that specified torque values can only be achieved if the bearing surfaces can move against each other freely. Without knowing what exactly is going on at the bearing surfaces inside a thread dry threads must be suspect. In the case of a Ranger, close enough must be good enough.
I'm finding all this information interesting and education but... I just can't get my head around manufacturers not using any fluids/greases at all.
Surely they would know best?
Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Sunday 6th of June 2021 10:03:28 PM
1 Their environment is clean and they are using new products, and
2 To use a lube on the threads could be messy and more expensive.
Tightening threads in the real world is a totally different matter. The only way you can get a reliable tension into a bolt is to physically measure the bolt extension (typically with a dial gauge). This then allows you to assess the actual tension in the shank of the bolt. That is impractical for all but critical bolt installations. The next best method is to use lubrication. Light machine oil is usually recommended although a thin smear of grease on wheel studs will do just about as well. Lubricating the threads reduces the variability of the friction component, and makes for a more reliable clamping. Tightening a dry thread the friction can vary enormously. Where manufacturers specify dry tightening, they have probably made allowances in the recommended torque that the tension in the bolt shank will not be excessive.
Interestingly, I have checked the workshop manual for my vehicles (both Mitsubishi) and they give a tightening torque but make no reference to lubricating the threads. Therefore I assume that they are talking about tightening the threads dry. The figures given were 110 Nm (81 ft-lb). Years ago I had a Triumph 2000 which the workshop manual specified torques for every bolt in the car. They said 60 ft-lbs for the wheel nuts, but lubricated threads. I tightened the bolts to this figure, and then went round and tightened them again by hand because to me this felt far too loose. However, the 60 ft lbs figure would probable give the same bolt tension as the 81 ft lbs of my Pajero, the Pajero having 6 bolts vs 4 of the Triumph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7UDy7B0-m8
Have to agree on that point. A bit like "Caravan polish" information