I'm toying with the idea of importing 4 x 100Ah lithium cells and a decent BMS (battery management system) and gluing them all together to make a 12V8 100Ah lithium battery:
Cost is about A$250 and A$72 landed plus, I imagine, GST so about A$350 in total plus some sort of box.
I like this approach because not only is it cheaper than buying a lithium battery in Oz but it also has the major advantage that if a cell or the BMS fail I can replace them rather than, as with a 12V battery, having to throw the whole thing out.
Your thoughts please people?
Whenarewethere said
12:30 PM Aug 12, 2021
The Winston raw cells?
Whichever lithium it will have to come by sea due to aviation safety regulations, so be a bit patient.
Dicko1 said
12:36 PM Aug 12, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of importing 4 x 100Ah lithium cells and a decent BMS (battery management system) and gluing them all together to make a 12V8 100Ah lithium battery:
Cost is about A$250 and A$72 landed plus, I imagine, GST so about A$350 in total plus some sort of box.
I like this approach because not only is it cheaper than buying a lithium battery in Oz but it also has the major advantage that if a cell or the BMS fail I can replace them rather than, as with a 12V battery, having to throw the whole thing out.
Your thoughts please people?
According to their site 4 x 3.2v x100a/h would be $999...BMS IS EXTRA
dorian said
01:11 PM Aug 12, 2021
When I follow the link to the battery page, I see a Russian version (probably because Aliexpress can't see my browser's locale setting), and I'm offered free shipping "in Australia via seller shipping". There's also a discount of around $5, if I understand correctly.
By the way, I'm no expert on solar, or lithium batteries, but I'd be wondering about any pitfalls when mixing old and new cells. Would the BMS account for this?
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 12th of August 2021 01:31:39 PM
Muskat55 said
01:25 PM Aug 12, 2021
I am also considering this option. It looks relatively straightforward for anyone with basic electrical knowledge. There is heaps of videos on YouTube. https://youtu.be/IsvBlQJr7b0 .
Mike Harding said
01:34 PM Aug 12, 2021
The prices I quoted are correct. The site is a little complicated and one needs to select this and that.
Muskat55: Yes it's hardly rocket science, just bolt four cells in series and attach a BMS (the BMS is where the clever stuff is).
Dicko1 said
05:21 PM Aug 12, 2021
I followed it a bit more closely and you are right. Everything just depends on the quality. I considered going down this path a while ago but when you can buy a quality 120a/h lithium for $800 with 3-5 years warranty...why bother
Mike Harding said
06:26 PM Aug 12, 2021
Dicko1 wrote:
but when you can buy a quality 120a/h lithium for $800 with 3-5 years warranty...why bother
And what do you think that warranty is worth?
Corndoggy said
06:37 PM Aug 12, 2021
I would also be asking your insurance company if they cover fire from home made battery systems.
kesa32 said
06:49 PM Aug 12, 2021
Hi , the main problem is the cells aren't matched resistance wise , sure you can balance them first then set them up , but unless theyre proper A grade cells direct from the manufacturer with the paperwork showing test results then don't believe what your buying is matched , unfortunately the resellers will tell you anything, but in most cases they'll be cells that at best , didn't quite make A grade specs , or worse , used etc , some people get lucky , some don't.....no free lunch with lithium cells , ask me l know lol
They're commonly know as commodity grade
If you want to learn more about the cells from China have a read over here diysolarforum.com/forums/diy-lifepo4-battery-banks.22/
Btw , the studs / tapped holes are very shallow , about 6mm or so , and 6mm diameter so you have to be careful doing them up
STRETCH ARMSTRONG said
06:59 PM Aug 12, 2021
I've been watching "DIY solar Power with Will Prowse" vids on YouTube. He builds and tests lots of stuff and uses a milk crate for his own battery build.
kesa32 said
10:09 PM Aug 12, 2021
Yeah he's pretty good to watch isn't he , it's definitely interesting to build your own stuff you just have to keep your expectations in check as your dealing with budget gear , so allow some give and take in what you get and you should be ok
Mike if you go ahead with those cells , maybe by a couple of spares , a know people buying large lots on that forum always buy extras to cover a dud cell , or to better match up in their strings as they match them as best as they can
Also note the casings are plastic wrapped as the metal conducts positive ? I think from memory , l put thin foam between the cells then compressed then with 32mm hardwood ends and plastic tubing covered all thread ( as the larger 280ah cells can bulge a bit under certain conditions, not sure about the smallaer 100ah cells )
STRETCH ARMSTRONG said
10:55 PM Aug 12, 2021
Thanks for that forum link kesa32, looks like heaps of info there.
peatop said
12:36 AM Aug 13, 2021
I have been doing a lot of investigation into Lithium of late, and joined diysolarforum.com a few days ago after a search about a supplier in Queensland, first I would say building a battery is not just bolt 4 cells together and add a bms the batteries need to be balanced and if they are of different matching then they will never balance correctly, and also don't think that just because a dude on youtube can do it you can too, some of these guy are just for a better word wankers (sorry cant think of a better way of putting it) ok so why would you want to build your own? cost, experience, cause I can! ha ha.
I'm what I call a life learner (always trying to learn) I wanted to build my own battery a few years ago for my kayak using 18650s and it was recommended to me at the time not to bother as the savings weren't there and my understanding of Lithium at the time was minimal. however this didn't stop me looking into the setup procedures and so on, although I bought a 17.5Ah kayak specific battery.
Now I'm thinking the same do I build or buy? well I've been looking for a Lithium 12v (drop in) at a reasonable price but this is proving to be so frustrating that I'm seriously thinking time to build my own, but this is where it gets tricky, who and where do you buy the cells? they are made in China, given the current situation and our location most of the suppliers in China are using air freight at a cost of $500+ for 4 matched cells, cells vary depending on the amp rating but start at around $40 each for 100 Ah then you want a BMS $150+, do you use a balancer? $35 case? $35-120.
One of the local (aus) dealers is offering 100Ah 3.2v cells at $125 each, balancer $129-149 and finally box $15 now in taking this into consideration how much am I saving? If I buy a cheap ebay special then I loose, but if I buy from a reputable supplier higher end I could potentially save $500 or more and possibly have a better battery.
Why am I thinking about building my own? mainly because most of the batteries out there don't have the charge and discharge rating (C rating) of what I consider they should for their capacity and price, I know lead batteries have a very low C rating and most of the lithium are far higher but who knows down the track what amps I want to draw from my battery and as far as charging, I want the highest charge rate as possible if running solar to charge and I had 4-5 days of cloud.
Ok the supplier here in aus I've found that lead me to diysolarforum.com is bigweibattery.com.au who also sells complete battery systems which I thought were pretty good (no recommendation of affiliation) just one I came across while searching and found his pre made batteries interesting.
kesa32 said
05:46 AM Aug 13, 2021
Hi , bigweibattery as far as l can tell just uses commodity cells too l think as one of the pictures of the cells when l looked ages ago had the QR codes scratched off which is usually not a good sign , maybe things have changed , lm just going off casual observation from back then
dorian said
06:37 AM Aug 13, 2021
Any decision regarding DIY batteries will be potentially undermined by the uncertainty introduced by the plethora of crooks and thieves operating with impunity in a corrupt society. The only way we can trust anything that we buy from China is if a recognised foreign principal has been involved in the design, procurement, manufacturing, quality control and delivery of the product. Anything else is a lottery.
Tony LEE said
10:07 AM Aug 13, 2021
I built an 8 cell 270Ah 24V battery with bms all bought from China.
No problems so far after 12 months continuous use. Nice to be able to run one aircon on hot days.
Tony LEE said
10:17 AM Aug 13, 2021
BTW, that cost is PER CELL
kesa32 said
11:38 AM Aug 13, 2021
There's a supplier on that forum " Amy " she apparently is now a supplier of certified A grade EVE cells , l think the 280ah ones are around $130 US each plus Freight , she probably can get the smaller 100ah's etc
I got mine last year through another supplier , came perfectly packed , QR codes intact and looked new , just one of the cells in reality is slightly different in resistance , nothing serious but affects the charge right near the top shoulder causing the BMS to shutdown a bit on high cell voltage
Charging at slower rate near the top helps , but for the price l can't complain , the most l run is a microwave now and then
Also added active balancing
peatop said
12:09 PM Aug 13, 2021
kesa32 wrote:
Hi , bigweibattery as far as l can tell just uses commodity cells too l think as one of the pictures of the cells when l looked ages ago had the QR codes scratched off which is usually not a good sign , maybe things have changed , lm just going off casual observation from back then
Yeah nothing surprising there really, there are a lot of ebay sellers selling via po boxes with their own website and multiple business names to go with them, although I did like his drop in setups, however it's the contents that I'm most interested in. I am not in a big hurry to decide on my method to obtain a battery or 2, however if I decide on importing the delivery times are up to 3 months or more for sea and a massive amount for air. If you do the right checking and get the right data then you should end up getting the right part for the job. I still have checks to make on bigwei but I will still be looking at others too, the cells the guys on the diy forum seem to get the most are from a certain guy on alibaba who seems to stand buy what he sells and the thread about the 280Ah batteries is very long 40+ pages and so far most reports are good, but this is where the batteries are cheap but air freight is not. Link to thread https://diysolarforum.com/threads/just-place-new-order-on-alibaba-280ah-x-8-for-1260-00-usd-delivered-grade-a-to-canada.3387/ be prepared to sift through the plain comments fort the data.
Dicko1 said
05:54 PM Aug 13, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
but when you can buy a quality 120a/h lithium for $800 with 3-5 years warranty...why bother
And what do you think that warranty is worth?
Probably a hell of a lot more than cheap arse chinese cells.
Mike Harding said
03:43 AM Aug 14, 2021
Dicko1 wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
but when you can buy a quality 120a/h lithium for $800 with 3-5 years warranty...why bother
And what do you think that warranty is worth?
Probably a hell of a lot more than cheap arse chinese cells.
And what do you think is inside many (all?) lithium batteries you will buy from an Australian supplier?
----
Many thanks all for your input, I appreciate it.
Whilst I appreciate the reasons for cell matching I don't think it's as important for light load applications as it would be for heavy loads - and who knows how each cell's chemistry changes with time/use/temperature so those matched cells you bought may not be as well matched after six months?
Given that, ideally, one needs matched cells and cell balancing it does make lithiums seem a little complex and delicate whereas lead-acid is simple and can withstand much abuse so still has a place I think. I shall investigate more and mull upon matters, thanks again all :)
Dicko1 said
09:44 AM Aug 14, 2021
My batteries have a full 36 months replacement warranty. Have been featured on you tube clips and mentioned in many forums. I have heard of only one fail and it was replaced with no issues from supplier. This battery is 100% waterproof and has excellent power characteristics you would expect in a quality battery. I did my homework for 12 months before purchasing and am confident in my selection. 18 months on batteries are working fine. They have a quality BMS and cell degradation, balance etc. is not an issue...less than a wet cell battery dropping a cell.
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Saturday 14th of August 2021 09:46:54 AM
Dick0 said
12:12 PM Aug 14, 2021
STRETCH ARMSTRONG wrote:
I've been watching "DIY solar Power with Will Prowse" vids on YouTube. He builds and tests lots of stuff and uses a milk crate for his own battery build.
Hi AA,
I watched many YouTube videos on this topic.
I looked into the whole idea of DIY LiFePO4 Batteries.
However, settled for 2x135AH Voltax (270AH). Cost, including delivery, was $950.00.
Do the sums for all the items required including connectors and internal wiring and the case and the time factor.
And if you are looking at 100AH only, will that be sufficient for your off the grid needs.
My 2000W (Rated) inverter now easily powers the Microwave, Toaster, Coffee, S/Press & Mixer appliances.
Also, a high quality solar charger/controller will be required for LiFePO4 charging.
Mike Harding said
12:48 PM Aug 14, 2021
Dick0 wrote:
However, settled for 2x135AH Voltax (270AH). Cost, including delivery, was $950.00.
Oh dear :( Then you may not wish to know which "cheap arse chinese cells" are inside your battery:
There's a lot to be said for the good old agm's , easy to look after , simple operation ( no bms etc ) and cheap
I went lithium due to my batteries needed replacing anyway , and most importantly, the weight factor as we were right on the limit with the van ( 1800kg ) , going to lithium dropped weight about 70kg
Making the battery was interesting for me and worked out good for the money and you get to custom fit what you want , l think from memory l spent around $900 , that's with 200a bms , 4 x active balancing , fuses / cabling , Anderson plugs ( 1 triple 50a side mount , 1 x 175a flushmount and another single 50a flushmount ) and 300a islotion switch with precharge added for the inverter charger , plus 4 x 10mm all thread and nuts / spring washers and Bunnings tool box ( discounted due to missing a clip , which l didn't need , it was a wheeled model $30 was around $100 )
Other bits and pieces l had in the shed
My cells came with a 5 year " warranty " which lm going to test to see if they replace one of the cells ( no big deal if they don't )
Craig1 said
04:41 PM Aug 14, 2021
See product recall today for professional home storage
Dick0 said
05:45 PM Aug 14, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
You can't even use the battery as an anchor!
As I asked Mike, what brand of LiFePO4 batteries do you use?
I am always interested in opinions of other Lithium battery owners and how their batteries perform.
It is good to do comparisons in performance. After some time I will post performance opinions in relation to my battery bank so others can make their conclusions.
I think there will be plenty of discussions relating to Lithium batteries. It will always be interesting reading.
And it is true that you can't use them as an anchor 'cos they are too light!
-- Edited by Dick0 on Saturday 14th of August 2021 05:51:53 PM
I'm toying with the idea of importing 4 x 100Ah lithium cells and a decent BMS (battery management system) and gluing them all together to make a 12V8 100Ah lithium battery:
Lithium cells
BMS
Cost is about A$250 and A$72 landed plus, I imagine, GST so about A$350 in total plus some sort of box.
I like this approach because not only is it cheaper than buying a lithium battery in Oz but it also has the major advantage that if a cell or the BMS fail I can replace them rather than, as with a 12V battery, having to throw the whole thing out.
Your thoughts please people?
The Winston raw cells?
Whichever lithium it will have to come by sea due to aviation safety regulations, so be a bit patient.
According to their site 4 x 3.2v x100a/h would be $999...BMS IS EXTRA
When I follow the link to the battery page, I see a Russian version (probably because Aliexpress can't see my browser's locale setting), and I'm offered free shipping "in Australia via seller shipping". There's also a discount of around $5, if I understand correctly.
By the way, I'm no expert on solar, or lithium batteries, but I'd be wondering about any pitfalls when mixing old and new cells. Would the BMS account for this?
Edit:
You may not need a "box":
https://t1lithium.com.au/gallery.html
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 12th of August 2021 01:31:39 PM
The prices I quoted are correct. The site is a little complicated and one needs to select this and that.
Muskat55: Yes it's hardly rocket science, just bolt four cells in series and attach a BMS (the BMS is where the clever stuff is).
I followed it a bit more closely and you are right. Everything just depends on the quality. I considered going down this path a while ago but when you can buy a quality 120a/h lithium for $800 with 3-5 years warranty...why bother
And what do you think that warranty is worth?
They're commonly know as commodity grade
If you want to learn more about the cells from China have a read over here
diysolarforum.com/forums/diy-lifepo4-battery-banks.22/
Btw , the studs / tapped holes are very shallow , about 6mm or so , and 6mm diameter so you have to be careful doing them up
Mike if you go ahead with those cells , maybe by a couple of spares , a know people buying large lots on that forum always buy extras to cover a dud cell , or to better match up in their strings as they match them as best as they can
Also note the casings are plastic wrapped as the metal conducts positive ? I think from memory , l put thin foam between the cells then compressed then with 32mm hardwood ends and plastic tubing covered all thread ( as the larger 280ah cells can bulge a bit under certain conditions, not sure about the smallaer 100ah cells )
I have been doing a lot of investigation into Lithium of late, and joined diysolarforum.com a few days ago after a search about a supplier in Queensland, first I would say building a battery is not just bolt 4 cells together and add a bms
the batteries need to be balanced and if they are of different matching then they will never balance correctly, and also don't think that just because a dude on youtube can do it you can too, some of these guy are just for a better word wankers (sorry cant think of a better way of putting it) ok so why would you want to build your own? cost, experience, cause I can! ha ha.
I'm what I call a life learner (always trying to learn) I wanted to build my own battery a few years ago for my kayak using 18650s and it was recommended to me at the time not to bother as the savings weren't there and my understanding of Lithium at the time was minimal. however this didn't stop me looking into the setup procedures and so on, although I bought a 17.5Ah kayak specific battery.
Now I'm thinking the same do I build or buy? well I've been looking for a Lithium 12v (drop in) at a reasonable price but this is proving to be so frustrating that I'm seriously thinking time to build my own, but this is where it gets tricky, who and where do you buy the cells? they are made in China, given the current situation and our location most of the suppliers in China are using air freight at a cost of $500+ for 4 matched cells, cells vary depending on the amp rating but start at around $40 each for 100 Ah then you want a BMS $150+, do you use a balancer? $35 case? $35-120.
One of the local (aus) dealers is offering 100Ah 3.2v cells at $125 each, balancer $129-149 and finally box $15 now in taking this into consideration how much am I saving? If I buy a cheap ebay special then I loose, but if I buy from a reputable supplier higher end I could potentially save $500 or more and possibly have a better battery.
Why am I thinking about building my own? mainly because most of the batteries out there don't have the charge and discharge rating (C rating) of what I consider they should for their capacity and price, I know lead batteries have a very low C rating and most of the lithium are far higher but who knows down the track what amps I want to draw from my battery and as far as charging, I want the highest charge rate as possible if running solar to charge and I had 4-5 days of cloud.
Ok the supplier here in aus I've found that lead me to diysolarforum.com is bigweibattery.com.au who also sells complete battery systems which I thought were pretty good (no recommendation of affiliation) just one I came across while searching and found his pre made batteries interesting.
Yeah nothing surprising there really, there are a lot of ebay sellers selling via po boxes with their own website and multiple business names to go with them, although I did like his drop in setups, however it's the contents that I'm most interested in. I am not in a big hurry to decide on my method to obtain a battery or 2, however if I decide on importing the delivery times are up to 3 months or more for sea and a massive amount for air. If you do the right checking and get the right data then you should end up getting the right part for the job. I still have checks to make on bigwei but I will still be looking at others too, the cells the guys on the diy forum seem to get the most are from a certain guy on alibaba who seems to stand buy what he sells and the thread about the 280Ah batteries is very long 40+ pages and so far most reports are good, but this is where the batteries are cheap but air freight is not. Link to thread https://diysolarforum.com/threads/just-place-new-order-on-alibaba-280ah-x-8-for-1260-00-usd-delivered-grade-a-to-canada.3387/ be prepared to sift through the plain comments fort the data.
Probably a hell of a lot more than cheap arse chinese cells.
And what do you think is inside many (all?) lithium batteries you will buy from an Australian supplier?
----
Many thanks all for your input, I appreciate it.
Whilst I appreciate the reasons for cell matching I don't think it's as important for light load applications as it would be for heavy loads - and who knows how each cell's chemistry changes with time/use/temperature so those matched cells you bought may not be as well matched after six months?
Given that, ideally, one needs matched cells and cell balancing it does make lithiums seem a little complex and delicate whereas lead-acid is simple and can withstand much abuse so still has a place I think. I shall investigate more and mull upon matters, thanks again all :)
My batteries have a full 36 months replacement warranty. Have been featured on you tube clips and mentioned in many forums. I have heard of only one fail and it was replaced with no issues from supplier. This battery is 100% waterproof and has excellent power characteristics you would expect in a quality battery. I did my homework for 12 months before purchasing and am confident in my selection. 18 months on batteries are working fine. They have a quality BMS and cell degradation, balance etc. is not an issue...less than a wet cell battery dropping a cell.
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Saturday 14th of August 2021 09:46:54 AM
Hi AA,
I watched many YouTube videos on this topic.
I looked into the whole idea of DIY LiFePO4 Batteries.
However, settled for 2x135AH Voltax (270AH). Cost, including delivery, was $950.00.
Do the sums for all the items required including connectors and internal wiring and the case and the time factor.
And if you are looking at 100AH only, will that be sufficient for your off the grid needs.
My 2000W (Rated) inverter now easily powers the Microwave, Toaster, Coffee, S/Press & Mixer appliances.
Also, a high quality solar charger/controller will be required for LiFePO4 charging.
Oh dear :( Then you may not wish to know which "cheap arse chinese cells" are inside your battery:
YouTube Voltax battery tear-down
Hi Mike,
Not sure how you determine cheap arse Chinese cells. I figure 99.9% of LiFePO4 batteries sold have Chinese cells, cheap arse or otherwise.
The battery tear down (if you can call it that) was made by an unqualified person who admits "He doesn't know much about Lithium batteries".
What LiFePO4 battery brand do you use Mike?
Yes, and I do agree that you do get what you pay for, in most instances.
I think most consumers balance Cost with Quality.
Some more Voltax info and opinions for viewing.
Voltax Lithium Battery - Outbax - YouTube
Solar Energy System: Some things are hot! Temperature Check Voltax 100aH LiFePO4 and cables - YouTube
You can't even use the battery as an anchor!
I went lithium due to my batteries needed replacing anyway , and most importantly, the weight factor as we were right on the limit with the van ( 1800kg ) , going to lithium dropped weight about 70kg
Making the battery was interesting for me and worked out good for the money and you get to custom fit what you want , l think from memory l spent around $900 , that's with 200a bms , 4 x active balancing , fuses / cabling , Anderson plugs ( 1 triple 50a side mount , 1 x 175a flushmount and another single 50a flushmount ) and 300a islotion switch with precharge added for the inverter charger , plus 4 x 10mm all thread and nuts / spring washers and Bunnings tool box ( discounted due to missing a clip , which l didn't need , it was a wheeled model $30 was around $100 )
Other bits and pieces l had in the shed
My cells came with a 5 year " warranty " which lm going to test to see if they replace one of the cells ( no big deal if they don't )
As I asked Mike, what brand of LiFePO4 batteries do you use?
I am always interested in opinions of other Lithium battery owners and how their batteries perform.
It is good to do comparisons in performance. After some time I will post performance opinions in relation to my battery bank so others can make their conclusions.
I think there will be plenty of discussions relating to Lithium batteries. It will always be interesting reading.
And it is true that you can't use them as an anchor 'cos they are too light!
-- Edited by Dick0 on Saturday 14th of August 2021 05:51:53 PM