Fuel Storage

Wombat 280 · Guru

Fuel Storage

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Wombat, 20 litre 'plastic' fuel containers are typically blow moulded 'High Density Polyethylene' (HDPE), probably a 'cross linked' grade.
This is also the material typically used for original fuel tanks fitted to Holdens, Fords etc. These tanks also contain 'barrier' layers to reduce the permeability of the tank (to stop the fuel leaching through the tank). This is an emissions requirement. I am unsure of whether the 20L portable containers use these barrier layers or not.

"Petrol' is a much more aggressive and difficult fuel to store than diesel. Many big boats use diesel tanks that are simply plywood coated in fibreglass and resin.

I have used Rheem 20L plastic fuel containers for many years. I would never use a steel 'jerry' again. I picked one up on the Gibb River road last year. It had obviously fallen off a trailer at speed. It was 3/4 full of petrol. It had a few minor scratches on it, that was all.

Cheers,
Peter

Wombat 280 · Guru

Thanks for that, it all makes for interesting reading and furthers the discussion .

After posting my concerns last night you wouldn't guess but into today's mail came the NRMA booklet and the NSW Fishing Monthly magazine and both contain warnings on Ethanol fuels and the use of plastic containers of the type we speak of, also mentioning fuel line degrading and gum build up within the combustion ports.

The other very interesting point they make is the rapid separation of ethanol from the petrol component and the possible build up of ethanol greter than 10 % and injecting it straight ethanol into the motor, all bad news for the gen set operators .

Both items are to long for inclusion here but they do make good reading for those with access

-- Edited by Wombat 280 at 12:41, 2008-10-02

Basil Faulty · Guru

I have been reliably informed by a person of middle eastern appearance that the plastic coke bottles are totally useless for molotove ****tails....
An intersting article in the "Open Road" concerning exacary this problem with ethanol in some car fuel tanks and even more debate about the 85% ethanol blend petrol that is now coming on the market, alas only 2 models of Saab can use it.... but in Brazil for many years they have been making Cars that run on 100% ethanol. I have a solution to the middle eastern problems, stop trading with them; sell them no food, let them eat sand untill they realise that the rest of the world is fed up with their attitudes to those of another religion and that we all have to share the planet.

dave06 · Guru

I am no fan of plastic containers of any kind and refuse to use them to carry fuel, had too many "rubbing" incidents and also if one tightens the lid too much in the top end the risk of bursting the seam of the lid is too high through pressure buildup, diesel is fine but I wont carry petrol in them only water, steel containers bounce on the road if dropped at speed, plastic bursts, of course the middle eastern religion has at its core to either ingratiate the infidals in to muslum beliefs or destroy them, and yet so many seemingly inteligent people follow the beliefs, they expect our help but shun our western ways, we will never stop trading with them simply because there is too much money at stake, and fighting with them is inevitable, war is good, good for the economy and good for trade, takes care of the unemployment problem, and pushes mankind forward at a rapid rate of knots, secures the future of oil for our rich western countries, the only people that suffer are the poor people who actually do the fighting, never the rich

twobob · Guru

Wombat
I will not carry "extra" fuel in whatever can, unless it is really required. I use to, but a mate of mine, carring same, had an accident - I can only assume it was not a good way to die.

Re plastics - I can tell you, from one of my backgrounds, expert advise is needed to know what the plastic is, and the test's, are basic, as the product is developing greatly.

The only other thing I will say here, is static electricity. I have seen it, ignite fuel under the right conditions. ie Transfer fuel and up she goes.

Cannot go passed metal if you need to carry extra fuel, but only carry what you need, and transfer it as soon as you can.

ps I run diesel - as with dave - less a concern

Wombat 280 · Guru

Dave . Ever noted that the rich ones never live in the own country they all move out as soon as they can to the USA, UK, Europe and the dollars go with them while their countrymen eat sand and ride camels .

Many of the countries that have the oil have bugger all in the way of infrastructure , government , education systems, roads , communications , food or water . What they do have is Religion along with an endless supply of AK47's and a heap of fanatics to use them.

dave06 · Guru

mate, I just cant believe just how rich these saudi arabian sheiks are, they have the kind of money that a medium country runs at, the last I heard petrol was at about 30c per ltr in saudi arabia, and yet the common people are still destitute, bob I fully agree with the fuel thing, I only carry it in my supply trailer and only in jerry cans, I dont know anything about poly whooziwichets and cross binding but I do know they split and rub open, and thats not good when one is 500 kms from the nearest refill, as for static, I try to ground myself and the can before I open the container, its just me and my strange ways but I have always used steel and I wont be talked out of it, carried water in plastic containers up to arkaroola on a recent trip, only cheap chinese things I bought off ebay, burst one and the other ones top came off by splitting, but the better ones last, if you buy one dont do what I did, spend the money correctly in the first place

Wombat 280 · Guru

Interesting you mention static . When filling the container no matter what it's made from always place it in contact with the ground to earth it out . you see people fill small containers by holding them off the ground hence no earth especially if wearing rubber soles .

When using hoses to transfer fuel static builds up in the hose as the fuel passes through.

I think it's the Shell web site that has a good read on static and fuel handling.

When refuelling aircraft you earth the fuel tanker to ground then the aircraft to ground before moving the fuel. If coming from an underground network you also bond the hose to to earth at the pickup point .

A couple of stories that do the rounds involve women and service stations and nylon clothing and the build up of static. Most if not all service station have done away with the nozzel lock on system and you have to hold it on to ensure an earth bond is maintained

A liitle more on the fuel debate that may interst some

When it comes to boating either in freshwater or at sea, your motors reliability is paramount, let's face it if your motor breaks down you can't step out and hitch another ride easily.

In all boating scenarios you should be in contact with other boats and rescue organisations via marine radios, mobile phones, EPIRBS, or whatever else your state regulations require. Communication is necessary so that you can organise a tow or ride home which most of the time is relatively easy and low on the danger scale. There are some dangerous scenarios though, for example you could be rapidly drifting closer to ocean rocks or exposed to the icy chill of inland water ways in which case motor failure is a real and sudden danger. This is why good boaters maintain their motors, boats and safety gear in perfect condition, but a new danger has creep in recently the use of ethanol in fuel.

High levels of ethanol in unleaded fuel causes deterioration of motor components, especially nylon and rubber parts such as those in fuel lines, which as keen boaters will know can cause sudden breakdowns! It also causes to a lesser degree corrosion of metal parts, premature engine wear, and it also burns hotter requiring that fuel mixtures be set leaner.

The way to avoid ethanol is thankfully easy. Use a marine supplier, major petroleum supplier, or ask your local petrol station if they use ethanol. Most of the time a sea or lake side petrol station will be aware of the problems ethanol can cause for boaters, If not let them know why they should be, and buy else where until the problem is fixed.

Typically, ethanol is used to help increase unleaded fuels profit margin, but the government is also looking at bringing in ethanol to help reduce emissions. The problem here is that the department responsible for the push, the department of Environment and Heritage has aimed the push at motorists and has only just admitted the dangers it presents for boaters! They could quite literally have blood on their hands if they don't get on top of this quick smart as boaters and cars often fill up at the same place.

Kevan Wolfe, boating expert and editor "Club Marine" magazine has informed me that the AMIF (Australian Marine Industries Federation) has written to the federal government. They are now looking at having compulsory ethanol fuel level statements and warnings displayed at the pump, but as yet no action has been taken!

Club marine is looking at this issue more closely in their next issue, boat owners and operators should follow this up. I'll be looking at the issue again in this column as information comes to hand.

At the moment, the fact remains that ethanol used in 'any' outboard can cause sudden failure, so avoid fuels with any ethanol altogether until safe levels have been clarified by AMIF. Safety comes first.

-- Edited by Wombat 280 at 17:00, 2008-10-06