Installing Battery - Advise please

PeterH · Veteran Member

Installing Battery - Advise please

dave06 · Guru

yep it really is that simple, people over complicate these things just to

(1), make money or

(2) to big note themselves

I would just wack in a 100 amp hour battery for overnight or even a couple of days stay, it will easily cope with this

you can easily extend the system to incorporate a solar panel or an isolation device at a later date

the sytec charger will be fine, but a 5 amp hour one will take 20 hours plus (overnight) to bring the battery back to a reasonable level of charge

-- Edited by dave06 at 16:47, 2009-03-06

PeterH · Veteran Member

Dave,
Thanks. I was going to rely on 240 at CP's as I was not going to install an anderson plug from the car.
That also reminds me, I now have a 'hot wire' from the car to the van through the connection to run the fridge while on the road, so will I have to disconnect this???

dave06 · Guru

for the purpose of not being confusing the "vehicle" battery is the one currently supplying power to your car

the "on board" battery is the one you will or have placed in the van commonly known as "in house battery"

the hot wire from the vehicle will not operate when the van is disconnected and will not interfere when the isolation switch is in the off position from the onboard or in house battery,

but if you leave the car hooked up overnight and you run the van off the on board battery then yes you will have to disconnect as one would flatten the other or may short

you must remember to only run the van off one system only or you will be risking shorts or syphoning of the vehicle battery,

it may pay to put a 3 way switch on board through a fuse board, place both power cables into the switch and only one power supply coming out of it, that way you can "select" the source of feed to the van without any mishaps, make sure you have all the apropriate fuses and wire sizes for the job

the switch is readily available from boating supply shops and would be a good peice of insurance

you could look at placing a battery isolater in the system (close as possible to the vehicle battery) and running the wire that you are currently using as a hot wire to recharge the onboard battery, that way you are not relying on mains power alone

-- Edited by dave06 at 17:05, 2009-03-06

Smokeydk · Guru

Hi Peter,

I have a 120AMPHour battery in My Camper.......Its charged via solar panel.but I also have a 10aph charger wired in to system

Dave

drongo & wendy · Senior Member

streth all this talk about power ya know what i use is a lead from van to power box im right up with this power stuff, need very long lead if im off road parking ummm better rethink

gawd some mums have em

dave06 · Guru

it can be as simple or as complex as you would like, but basically it comes down to two things that are NEEDED!!

(1) POWER SOURCE,
in this case a battery, size is a matter of choice dependant on duration of stay, power requirements, power ammount, simple single overnight camping using only lights or very light equipment then 100 amp is more than ample

(2) RECHARGING POWER SOURCE,
can be very simple or complex, simplest would be an on board 240 auto charger as stated, or then there is the solar array with all the necesary equipment, and then can run to gennys, isolaters and all manner of beastys,

main thing for you to understand is just keep it simple, if you make it complex then that will only complicate your break if something goes wrong, you must understand it to fix it

if you intend to stay a couple of nights out in the wilds then grab an 80 watt briefcase solar panel, place the plug in to your battery, stick the panel out in the sun and stay as long as you like, this will easily run a couple of lights as well as an engel 40 ltr fridge, this is what I use all the time without any problems, I also have a battery isolater running through a dual battery sytem for when I am travelling

simple and effective (much like me) keep it simple!!!

Smokeydk · Guru

Excellent dave,

I have a 80watt solar panel.....it produces 5amp per hour...My Waeco 40lt fridge uses 1ampph...rest tops up the battery.
that power board.....I had made up....monitors the amps the solar panel makes...so it can be moved for max input...the Volt meter checks battery

as you said.KISS.......keep it simple stupid

Dave

dave06 · Guru

thats the way mate, understand what you are putting on your vehicle that way when it breaks you can repair it,

one does not have to be an expert on these things, keep it straight forward and cater to your own needs, not what a solar panel salesman or the local expert on everything is trying to sell you

PeterH · Veteran Member

Dronga & Wendy,
Until now I had the same simple view, plug it in and it works. Had to try and find a power supply to suit when ours decided to c**p itself....only one we could find and immediately available was one that had a battery charger and regulator in it, so thought it may be worthwhile to try and use everything available in the supply and also do some 'free camping' later as well.

PeterH · Veteran Member

Dave,
Also now makes me think about getting an Engel as well. Have seen a number of people on the road who use these.
We find our small fridge as being too small at times and as we have found if you pack it too full with goodies - beer, beer, beer, wine and then some food, it sometimes is not as efficient as it could be.
I also wondered about a volt meter, so will most probably include in my fitting, all these ideas will help.
Thanks for the advice.

PeterH · Veteran Member

Dave06,
I had forgotten about the dual battery setup. I had one in a trailer boat I had before we sold it to get the van.
It worked extremely well as we were using marine radio, CD player and fishfinder and never had a flat battery when it came to starting the boat. Somewhere I have a wiring drawing of the setup - just have to find it and modify for this.
Thanks

dave06 · Guru

ah now with the fridge pete I can tell you where you went wrong, you wasted space with the food,

but all bul****zen aside the engel is a valuable part of our kit now and we wouldnt go anywhere without it, draws about 1.5 to 2. amps per hour whilst running (which is 20% of an hour on a day of 32 degs) these are also a very reliable freezer which can (and ours does) be used at home,

we use the lights when we want them as well as the engel coupled up with the solar suitcase (80 watt) stayed out for a bit over a week on a 100 amp hour battery with no problems

when it comes to battery isolaters, to me there is only one, "redarc" if you go to here

http://www.redarc.com.au/smart-start.htm

and nose around you will find all sorts of stuff as well as dual battery diagrams and neat stuff

Wombat 280 · Guru

When you decide on a battery make it a Gel or AGM one otherwise you have to vent them to outside atmosphere to clear the acid vapour. a good 3 stage charger will cost around 3 - 400

I use a 100 amp/hour AGM and have installed female car connection and a cig plug plug it into my battery box, just plug the van connection into the female and I have the 12 volt lighting system powered up , can use an inverter to run the tele or other 240 volt appliance if required.

PeterH · Veteran Member

Wombat 280 wrote:

When you decide on a battery make it a Gel or AGM one otherwise you have to vent them to outside atmosphere to clear the acid vapour. a good 3 stage charger will cost around 3 - 400

I use a 100 amp/hour AGM and have installed female car connection and a cig plug plug it into my battery box, just plug the van connection into the female and I have the 12 volt lighting system powered up , can use an inverter to run the tele or other 240 volt appliance if required.

Wombat,
Thanks for the advice. I wondered about having the battery stored in the front boot with vapour, but was leaning towards sealed batteries as well, but great to know of a good brand to look for.
You also mention 3 stage charger. The power source I have has a built in 5amp 240v charger, do you think this will be insufficient, bearing in mind will most probably only free camp for around 3/4 days at a time. I am also looking at the possibility of solar charging as well.
Don't think I need the female car plug in battery box as the power source has 240and Battery input to it with 12v out of it, but will think about any benefit the plug may give us.
We use a 240v tele from the house which uses a plug/converter source to reduce 240v to 12v into the tele. Just starting to wonder if we can plug this straight into the 12v supply in the van (with different lead of course).
Need to do some more research on this though!!!
I am also starting to research inverters, but am concerned about the power drain they use for heavier appliances.

dave06 · Guru

your standard charger will not charge an agm or gel battery, these require a special charger and as wombat has stated they are valued at about $300 up

the 12 volt TV will operate very comfortably straight off your battery or power pack

if you are using a power source such as a thumper or an urban then they already use a gel battery at their core and have a 12 volt outlet and a 240 inlet for charging purposes

the main concern with a battery discharging gases is in the recharging process and in the front boot of your van I cant see a problem as long as you install a small vent (very easy to do) a lot of vans actually do have vents already installed in the boot

if you have excessive gases emanating from your battery then you are overcharging your battery (cooking it) and you will not have it for long, this can be seen by bubbles coming up the side, small is normal, large and aggressive is "cooking" it

after all most battery's live their life under a car bonnet, not the ideal environment to have explosive gases,

if you start your car at night without any lights on and just have a look under the bonnet at all the sparks, take particular notice of the alternator, then you will see what I mean

Wombat 280 · Guru

Try this site as a start mark for your research on a number things electrical for vans, inverters, fridges ,generators solar power and heaps more , I have found it very interesting .

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rfh/index.htm

If you can't fix the problem with a hammer it has to be electrical

While vehicle batteries do live out their lives under the bonnet without any hassles in most cases it is only because of the natural dilution of the explosive gases that results from large volumes of air passing around the battery site.

In the case of an enclosed caravan boot mounted battery and the fact that the acid laden gases having a mass slightly greater than air they will pool at the lowest point and without the venting to atmosphere there will be no natural dilution. At some point these gases may reach the critical mass requiring only a source of ignition to turn the entire rig into crispy critter.

The problems associated with gas generation may be exacerbated if the boot is lined with Gal and the acid reacts with the zinc.

Batteries are a good source of portable power but unfortunately we don't treat them with due respect expecting them to perform tasks well outside their design specs.

Smokeydk · Guru

Forgot to say My AGM battery is sealed...its in a wooden box bolted into my campertrailer...the 120 AMP/Hour battery is charged by the 10amp charger.......the board was made up by company here in SA

http://www.homeof12volt.com/

they supplied that..instead me buying a CTek........saving me lot ...as Basil said..chargers arent cheap....my 3 stage cost around $350

Dave

-- Edited by Smokeydk at 12:27, 2009-03-10

dave06 · Guru

the web address that you quoted would be probably one of the best advice areas that you could get, ask them!!! dont go to an auto electrician

http://www.homeof12volt.com/

this is a setup of a brand new 2008 kimberley kamper straight out of the showroom, please note the dust and water proof seal around the top, the two little circles on the top of the box are viewing windows and not vents, I know this because I have worked on many of them, the agm batterys and gel batterys are an added extra at quite a bit of extra cost

I have seen this in various forms many times

-- Edited by dave06 at 14:36, 2009-03-10

Cupie · Guru

Peter ..

You have got lots of good advice on this issue ... Let me add my two bobs worth ...

Assuming that your van is a Jayco .. It looks like one and
Setec produce power supplies specifically for Jayco.

Have a look at the setec.com. au website for user manuals & circuits.

My 1999 Jayco was delivered wired with a van battery. It is a 100a/h Delkor 'sealed' Calcium battery located under the lounge seat next to the charger. (not deep cycle)

As you mentioned the Jayco interior lights are 12v & run off the power supply when connected to 240v. My battery is connected via a fuse to the appropriate outputs of the power supply. I put in an isolation switch myself but rarely use it. If you install a battery you might need to put an isolating diode in the lead from the power supply to terminal 2 (hotwire) back to the tow vehicle + supply. I'm unsure if it is provided as standard by Jayco.

In my case the power is always connected to the van when at home keeping the battery on float. Although it is rarely used, it is still OK after 10 years!
I recently used it to power the electric motor on my fishing kayak. It was still going well after 2hrs & it recharged overnight on the van power supply. Who knows how it will go next time. They say that it is important not to completely flatten non deep cycle batteries or you will shorten their life dramatically.

IMHO you could check with your local Jayco distributor or their usual electrician and maybe with Setec. Then wire up a 100AH battery and try it before spending lots on a deepcycle battery & smart charger etc etc. Setec will be able to advise if your charger is suitable for a deep cycle batt.

Of course if you intend to travel from free camp to free camp you will need to look at the andersen plug option for charging the van battery when traveling. I don't so have never fitted the Anderson plug & wiring in my tow vehicle.

Hope this helps

twobob · Guru

For the purpose of KISS, I will keep this reply condensed, so some detail will be left out. Having read the posts, and believing I have some knowledge in this area, I was left a little confused. So I am going to have a go at defining it, as I understand, hopefully helping others and myself

The trailer can be powered by either 240v and or 12v. Different appliances in the trailer, require one of them only. Most trailers have 240v wiring AND 12v wiring, thus outlets that you connect to for the correct voltage

This introduces two items, an INverter and a CONverter. The IN converts 12v to 240V and the CON 240v to 12v. The most common IN is the power supply that you plug into your car cig lighter to power the laptop. Common CON is a battery charger. These are rated in Watts, so a 300W IN, can supply 1.25a @ 240v (300/240)

The main item being discussed here is the battery. How to use it for power

Batteries come in many sizes and types, but are commonly 12volt, and you basically pay for what you get. They are vented or sealed, so you pay more for a sealed as it must contain the gases. They are acid or gel filled. They are rated at amps for an hour (AH), so 70ah is 70 amps output over an hour. A 5 amp appliance will drain that battery in 14hrs (70/5). So depending on your useage, it may be decided to have multiple batteries ie 2 * 70ah and then get 5 amps for 28hrs

Next is the recharging of the battery. Deep cycle and gel filled require precision recharging for maximum life, while a acid filled battery can handle course recharging, hence float Solar and special electronic chargers for DC and gel, and your Kmart special for acid. The better the charger for either of them the longer their life. Again you pay for what you get. It is common to recharge the trailer battery from the towing vehicle, via an Anderson plug. This is a trade name for a particular plug, which is wired to the car battery and then the trailer is connected to it at the rear, same as your trailer plug. The result is while you travel both batteries are recharged, by the cars alternator

Lastly it was discussed about switches and fuses. On Isolation, our mains power have a main switch, to turn off everything in case of fault, and a 12 volt system can have the same problems, so installing one makes sense. Two way change over switches are used on multiple battery installations, where it make it possible to select one or both batteries and is an isolation switch as well. Putting in fuses provides a common sense approach to safety, and should be normal practice.

The prime reason for all of this discussion is so we have a system that does not rely on the car battery for powering the trailer and provides us some ability to travel without mains power. To do this we must know what our power requirements are. What is on the Inverter for 240v and what is on 12v, convert this to amps, then allow a safety for efficiencies (lack of them) and then decide on size and number of batteries. This also provides us with the recharge rate and period.

The rest are installation issue and these will vary from unit to unit, but safe storage of the batteries is the main concern

My Twobobs worth

dave06 · Guru

yep the thread has become very confusing because it can be a complex issue, but I tried to explain that it does not have to be so

in the first instances I tried to explain the simplest method I.E. battery = power source I recommended a 100 amp lead acid (thats what I use) they are cheap and obtainable anywhere, I,m only dealing with twelve volt as I like to keep it simple as possible

my lead acid battery has been all over the country for donkeys years and given me very good service for up to two nights free camping using mostly lights, and an engel fridge and very rarely a tv and satelite setup

when I camp longer or I want to use something heavier on power like my dvd player plus tv then I place my 80 watt solar panel out and that recharges the batts for me, even though I use a 300 watt inverter

I have an onboard auto 240 charger for when I venture in to c/parks as well as a redarc dual battery isolater setup I find this simple setup is all I ever need and never yet had a flat battery
and gives us all the power that we require

complex issue, simple answer, all you need is a battery (to suit your requirements) and some means to repower the thing the rest is all piddling in the wind and can be argued until the cows come home, and it probably will, me this is the last of my comments on the subject as I grow weary of saying the same thing over and over again

easiest method is to grab a thumper or urban power pack and a solar panel and thats all you will need to camp for an indefinate period, running lights and an engel easily

you see old Dave (me) is a simple animal if I'm cold I light a fire, big or small, my choice, if I cant see then I grab a battery and a light and I can see, when the battery goes flat I look for the simplest method to recharge the thing, always the simplest way for me, cos I'm not that smart

one can spend many thousands of dollars on these things, not me simplest is always best

-- Edited by dave06 at 16:00, 2009-03-11

Cupie · Guru

Yep. I agree with the previous two posts.
Twobob's explanations of the tech aspects clarify lots of what has been said while Dave's theme of simplicity is sound.

In my case, I assumed that Pete's van is a Jayco & as such required the power supply (converter) for normal lights & pump operation and responded in that context.

MY reply could have been shorter/simpler . eg.

Yes my experience with a similar power supply's charger has been satisfactory for 10yrs using a lead acid battery.
I use it occasionally but the 100A/H seems satisfactory. It may not be suitable for longer term camping without 240v.

PeterH · Veteran Member

Cupie wrote:

Peter ..

You have got lots of good advice on this issue ... Let me add my two bobs worth ...

Assuming that your van is a Jayco .. It looks like one and
Setec produce power supplies specifically for Jayco.

Have a look at the setec.com. au website for user manuals & circuits.

My 1999 Jayco was delivered wired with a van battery. It is a 100a/h Delkor 'sealed' Calcium battery located under the lounge seat next to the charger. (not deep cycle)

As you mentioned the Jayco interior lights are 12v & run off the power supply when connected to 240v. My battery is connected via a fuse to the appropriate outputs of the power supply. I put in an isolation switch myself but rarely use it. If you install a battery you might need to put an isolating diode in the lead from the power supply to terminal 2 (hotwire) back to the tow vehicle + supply. I'm unsure if it is provided as standard by Jayco.

In my case the power is always connected to the van when at home keeping the battery on float. Although it is rarely used, it is still OK after 10 years!
I recently used it to power the electric motor on my fishing kayak. It was still going well after 2hrs & it recharged overnight on the van power supply. Who knows how it will go next time. They say that it is important not to completely flatten non deep cycle batteries or you will shorten their life dramatically.

IMHO you could check with your local Jayco distributor or their usual electrician and maybe with Setec. Then wire up a 100AH battery and try it before spending lots on a deepcycle battery & smart charger etc etc. Setec will be able to advise if your charger is suitable for a deep cycle batt.

Of course if you intend to travel from free camp to free camp you will need to look at the andersen plug option for charging the van battery when traveling. I don't so have never fitted the Anderson plug & wiring in my tow vehicle.

Hope this helps

Cupie,
Thanks that is useful info as all the replies are.
The van we have is a Golden Eagle, not a Jayco, but we purchased the power supply from a Jayco Dealer while in Coffs Harbour. Found the guys there very helpful and would not hesitate to phone them for advice, but feel I may be imposing on them.
I haven't got to the Setec web site yet but will do so.
I don't think we will go from free camp to free camp much, but would look to stay for most probably only three days at the max.
I'm now working through the replies after yours, so may end up repeating myself.
Thanks again

PeterH · Veteran Member

To All,
Believe it or not, I have gained very valuable information from all replies here. The thing I take away is it can be as complex or as simple as each individual wants it to be.
All this info, plus some excellent sites recommended here and one's I have found on the I'net have given me a clear picture of what we require.
Something like this (final details to be confirmed?????????)
Requirements
- 100 amp/hr (sealed) battery.
- Anderson plug with appropriate fuses and relays (found an excellent site with detailed installation instructions which I have printed out. Am happy to share this link....... as soon as I find it again. It's on the printout, but it's at the office at the moment.
- Suitcase solar charger.
- Amp meter and regulator.
- Isolation switch.
- Time to go free camping after installation to try out.
The last is going to be the hardest for the next couple of months, but we are building towards that.
Again, thanks to all.
Much appreciated - have a beer on me.............it's happy hour!!!!!!

Smokeydk · Guru

Hi Peter

I do same as dave does.....I dont have a caravan.....I have a CamperTrailer.....I dont have inverters....my 120amphour battery.lasts me 6 days....I only use it to run my waeco fridge and lighting...its charged daily...using my solar panel....not cheap to set up....but no ongoing costs after.....as with generators etc...we dont use caravan parks much now..we camp to get away from dvds and tv and computers........

good luck

Dave

twobob · Guru

Thats the way, as Sir Dave says "keep it simple"

Yep, you can have a brand name high tech gismow, to do what ever - the more complex the bigger the head ache

My aim was to provide some info on what is being spoken of, and hopefully provide enough to say, stuff it, I will have one battery and change my habits of using power, its that simple

A 100ah battery recharged via the car, is more than enough - get rid of the hair dryer and electric toothbrush and enjoy back to nature, Leave the Tv at home and learn to talk again

I love writing here, as I have that memory desease, forget what its called, but I can come back and argue with myself -so much fun

Cupie · Guru

Probably my last word on this thread is to draw your attention to one of Wombat 280's contributions ....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Try this site as a start mark for your research on a number things electrical for vans, inverters, fridges ,generators solar power and heaps more , I have found it very interesting .

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rfh/index.htm"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had forgotten what a great source of information it is on many caravan 'technical' issues. Of course a first reading might just be confusing & give you a headache, but careful re-reading & a bit of study is well worthwhile.

Thanks Wombat .. I have now restored it to my "Favourites"

dave06 · Guru

yeah good site as is all of the tech sites, I could name a dozen of them but my Idea of free camping and self sufficient power is simplicity not complexity, a battery and a light and a solar panel and freedom is yours for as long as you want

I still say the 12 volt shops website is the best arena for good honest opinion and ideas, and they dont mind the occasional email

found here

http://www.homeof12volt.com.au/

PeterH · Veteran Member

Wombat 280 wrote:

Try this site as a start mark for your research on a number things electrical for vans, inverters, fridges ,generators solar power and heaps more , I have found it very interesting .

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rfh/index.htm

Wombat 280,

Until tonight, I had not had an opportunity to look at that site. It has some great information, and also explains in in simple language...for a simple guy like me.

I have bookmarked it and will certainly be visiting again.

Thanks.........