Question about vents.

iana · Guru

Question about vents.

Radar · Guru

I really hate the phase "use common sense", but if I am cold and there is a hole in the wall allowing cold air in, I put a block in it.

But now if I am cold and I would like a cuppa, needing hot water I would vent the stove, boil the billy, turn the stove off and then replace the block in the draught again. The stove's burnt gas from cooking would leak into the range hood to vent out though the rangehood which is another area cold air comes in.

Now for the love of me, I have trouble reasoning why some times we need all these vent, up near the roof in the pop top curtain, and there is 6 zipped windows, a meshed vent at each end of the van, then one near the top of the wall near the bed and then we have another one down in the step well in the door it self.

Behind the frig there is 2 big vents, I believe there is no way that the gas from this area is going to get to me down in my bed because that gas would escape out though the external frig vents.

Now to answer a question with a question. We have been told LP gas is heavier then air so how high in a 18 foot caravan will 8.5kgs of LP gas reach, if and only if either of the safety devices fail on the stove or frig?

I have edit this post after giving the subject a bit more thought, still maybe not enough.

-- Edited by Radar on Wednesday 25th of May 2016 02:03:49 AM

GerryP · Veteran Member

Yes LPG is heavier than air, but carbon monoxide (CO) is lighter. To allow gas or CO to escape from one vent, you need another vent (high or low) to allow fresh air in. Personally, I wouldn't block off the high level or door vents unless my gas was turned off at the actual bottle.

sandsmere · Guru

GerryP wrote:
Yes LPG is heavier than air, but carbon monoxide (CO) is lighter. To allow gas or CO to escape from one vent, you need another vent (high or low) to allow fresh air in. Personally, I wouldn't block off the high level or door vents unless my gas was turned off at the actual bottle.

I agree with you Gerry.

Gas connections can and do leak at times . The pipes can crack and leak.

The one plus about it of course is if you do have a leak and subsequent explosion, you probably won't feel anything.

iana · Guru

Just been doing a bit of exploring on the net. The Dometic Seitz roof skylight-vents are made with seals, but those supplied to Australia do not come with seals to satisfy the gas laws. I also read about carbon monoxide detectors and the safety splurge was aimed mostly at motor homes, i.e. motor running, poor exhausts, and generators running.
These vents look ideal for motor homes, cut a hole, plonk it in place, and you have a skylight and vent done, easy. And I suspect the same is true when manufacturing a caravan. It would not concern the manufacturer that the van is over vented, and the occupants freeze.
I think our van is well over vented, and I shall look into getting seals for the skylights, or at least one of them. Then also look at getting a CO detector which should cover that base. When I checked on my house, it has one vent 200mm square, and it complies, blocking off some of the holes in our van won't make much difference to the overall ventilation.
We do not have a gas fridge, or a generator, only the gas stove.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

If you have gas connected, it is a legal requirement to have vents of a particular area at high and low levels which can not be and are never closed.
That is the law.
Read here....
caravansplus.com.au/pdf/Guide%20to%20Gas%20Installations%20in%20Caravans%20&%20Mobile%20Homes.pdf
This may not be the latest version.

Cheers,
Peter

rockylizard · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
If you have gas connected, it is a legal requirement to have vents of a particular area at high and low levels which can not be and are never closed.
That is the law.
Read here....
http://caravansplus.com.au/pdf/Guide%20to%20Gas%20Installations%20in%20Caravans%20&%20Mobile%20Homes.pdf
This may not be the latest version.

Cheers,
Peter

Gday...

Link fixed.

Cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Wednesday 25th of May 2016 11:36:36 AM

The Doo crew · Senior Member

Saw what half a hundred pounder LPG cylinder did to a timber fibro duplex once, don't think I would chance it in a van.
Explosion was heard 7kms away, house was reduced to a dance floor, the occupant survived as he caused the explosion by waking up & lighting a smoke, centre point of explosion apparently.
21 years as a fireman have never seen anything like it before & never want to see it again.

Radar · Guru

The Doo crew wrote:
Saw what half a hundred pounder LPG cylinder did to a timber fibro duplex once, don't think I would chance it in a van.
Explosion was heard 7kms away, house was reduced to a dance floor, the occupant survived as he caused the explosion by waking up & lighting a smoke, centre point of explosion apparently.
21 years as a fireman have never seen anything like it before & never want to see it again.

Like to hear the full story on this incident, mine you it has very little to do with the orignal question asked by Iana.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Posted recently by "Motherhen" on Caravaners forum.

As we head into cold days and nights and think about the comfort of heating, this week is Carbon Monoxide Awareness Week. Time to check that appliances you are using at home are well maintained and operating safely. For those travelling, dont be tempted to use any unflued heating in your caravan or camper, nor ideas bandied around like an upturned flowerpot over a gas burner.

Some common products that can emit carbon monoxide when you use them are:
Barbeques that use wood, charcoal or gas
Fireplaces that use wood, charcoal or gas
Portable cookers that use gas or kerosene
Portable and/or outdoor heaters that use gas or kerosene
Flued gas heaters (under certain conditions)
Electrical generators that are diesel or petrol powered
Electrical equipment that is diesel or petrol powered (such as pumps, chainsaws, blowers and welders).
From Product Safety.

At higher levels, carbon monoxide can kill within minutes. Even if you get fresh air in time to save your life, carbon monoxide can cause strokes, heart attacks, memory loss and personality changes. This brain damage is permanent.

Carbon monoxide binds to haemoglobin in our blood in place of the needed oxygen, and does so in preference to the oxygen in the air. This causes blood vessels of the body to leak, especially in the brain causing the brain to swell, leading to unconsciousness and neurological damage.
Source Carbon Monoxide Kills.

Last year a man was found dead from using an outdoor gas heater inside a house in Victoria
A Sydney man was found dead with head beads by his bed last year
In 2012 three men died in Tasmania while using a gas fridge in a caravan
A New Zealand mother and her three children died inside their house from fumes from a car idling in the adjoining garage.
Barbecue beads were placed in the porch of a tent for warmth, and a fourteen year old girl, being nearest to them, died.
In 2011 a man died during cyclone Yasi while using a generator inside his house.
In 2010, Chase and Tyler Robinson died from carbon monoxide poisoning from an unserviced gas heater in their rental property. They were only eight and six years old.

The Chase and Tyler Foundation raises awareness of carbon monoxide poisoning in Australia.

Thousands of people die every year throughout the world due to accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, directly resulted from using outdoor heating appliances indoors.
For camping off mains power in really cold weather, either a diesel heater (Webasto, Dometic or Eberspacher or cheaper copies), or installed gas heater (Truma) are the best options for heating your caravan.

You can get 12 volt electric blankets or use a 240 volt one off your inverter to warm the bed, or pull on Explorer or other thick woollen socks, and use a zero rated sleeping bag to keep the warmth you generate close around you.

STAY SAFE.

Cheers,

Peter

iana · Guru

Pete N Margaret, I shall refrain from lighting my barbecue, or having any sort of open fire inside the van, even though it was bloody cold in there. I shall do some calculations on the vent sizing and check if we are over legal.
Seriously though, we do have some intelligence.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

With in reason the lower vents are fine . Shutting the top vents is ok .. You'll find there is or should be other vents for gas . Our has double skin roof with open vents between the two . Should have gas detector fitted top and bottom any way !! Pita using fly spray, Glen 20 etc

Radar · Guru

Would there be 500000 caravans, motorhomes in Australia and we have this few incidents?

I was ready to pull the gas off the caravan lock myself in a padded cell for safety reasons, then started thinking about home gas heaters that are more or less portable but plug into a fixted banonet fitting that can be moved a little around the room as far as the hose will allow. These don't have any venting to the outside and they would shut the door to keep the warm air in.

My chances of blowing the caravan apart or dying from gas poisoning is becoming very slim.

Cracking gas pipes in the caravan, more likely outside under the van.

I am a bit like Iana we do have some intelligence hence we ask question and then people come back with stories of explosions, death from poisonous gas.

Come on be real people and help us to make better decision on the subject.

Radar · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
If you have gas connected, it is a legal requirement to have vents of a particular area at high and low levels which can not be and are never closed.
That is the law.
Read here....
http://caravansplus.com.au/pdf/Guide%20to%20Gas%20Installations%20in%20Caravans%20&%20Mobile%20Homes.pdf
This may not be the latest version.

Cheers,
Peter
Hi Peter n Margaret
Have read the legal requirements, it gives a full list of specs have now a copy filed away away for future needs.
Thank you.

iana · Guru

I brought the subject up at a caravan club meet, seems that gas is so smelly one would pick up a leak when entering the van, so gas is not really the big problem, its CO (carbon monoxide) given off when an appliance has a flame going.
A CO detector would be the go here, and they are available, look a bit like a std. smoke alarm.
My thoughts atm. are that our two skylights could have seals fitted, and the vent to the interior at the top of the fridge could be sealed (its not a gas fridge). That would leave a vent at lower door, and upper door, and the flued vent over the stove to give adequate ventilation.

Cupie · Guru

My solution is ...

Don't go caravanning in the cold.

Come to North Qld coast in the winter.

But look out for the drop bears, & coconuts on windy days.

.....................................................................................

Seriously though ... I would never close off vents. I keep a stock of cold weather gear in the linen cupboard just in case.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Death and injury rates from CO poisoning are relatively low in Australia because we have strict regulations and most sensible people comply with them.
If you check the US, you will find a quite different story. Dozens die every year.

Cheers,
Peter

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Population and climate .. Some die from freezing too !! Some don't have brain cells to kill!!

Nic · Newbie

We would like some advice please about covering the vents (including fridge vents) on our pop-top when travelling on dirt roads to Birdsville.

We know about not covering them when using gas (we have read all the posts and understand the reasons to keep the vents clear when gas is on and in use) but when we are driving what do people suggest we do to keep the dust out (no scupper vent and have read various posts about their effectiveness).

Do you think we need to cover the vents? If yes, please let us know what to use - cardboard/kapock/plastic??

MOLLUSCAN · Senior Member

Well I think Peter is making an excellent point and we should all be very careful about closing off vents is the small space of our vans. CO will kill you in your sleep. We use our very warm sleeping bags in cold weather and always sleep with one window open. Keep safe out there. However, I too would like to know how to keep dust out on dirt roads.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I just press a wett chuck into top and lower vents in door step . We don't have any other low enough being 6 ton motor home .. There's light red dust behind fridge grill but not enough to worry about . It's all very well sealed from inside ..

Radar · Guru

No I don't have scrupper vent in the roof of our caravan, I do use one in my utes canopy which is very effective in lowing dust into the ute well.

Now our caravan has a four season hatch, I leave the back flap open on the first latch, our van stays basically dust free.

The longest unsealed road I have done is up around the 80 ks mark, on one extra long trip spread over 3 months we would of had about 230 ks of unsealed roads and I am very happy with amount of dust or lack of dust entering our pop top.

I must add a very close friend was relaying to me about his sad tale of dust entering his wind up off road camper, he eventually traced it to a section of open rhs tube running along the right hand side of the van behind the wheel arch allowing dust to travel along up into plastic shroud along the rear and into the cupboards. Pulling the shroud off found it was carrying good amount of pebbles.

He was so dissapointed with the van as his previous 1992 road going versionon was dust free but the ubeaut 2012 bells and wistle off road one just filled with dust. He did ventually stop the dust and since has done hundreds kilometres of unsealed roads.

Unfortunely one needs to tow the caravan down unsealed road to find if it leaks dust or not and then learn to controlling its entry. Hope this helps.