Overweight issues

mr glassies · Guru

Overweight issues

TheHeaths · Guru

You're right Dibs, and you have found out what many have missed so far, and that is that while many of the current crop of nice looking utes claim they can tow 3500 kg, they can only do it when they are only about 1/2 loaded themselves.

Unfortunately, many are not members of forums, and so they go around, overloaded with all the things like you take, and never realise that they are putting themselves and others at risk. In some cases I also think some know they are overloaded, but unlike you they don't care.

I hope you can work out your issue, and get the ute and van loaded correctly so you can enjoy your travel. It really is good to see someone taking their responsibility re loading seriously and not sticking their head in the sand.

And don't forget, if your van weighs less than the 3500 kg, it gives you a bit of room to move with your load in the ute.

Radar · Guru

Dibs hi

Yes! It don't take much to get up there with your weights, at present with our replacement caravan, I am playing ignorant or I think I am close to the caravan max, the ute is OK.

Since we started going extented touring (we don't live full time on the road) 2 months at a time we have slowly limited ourselfs to only the most needed items, if we can not use it for 2 or more uses it don't travel, we enjoy the simplest things, we don't go with out, we purposely leave home to live simply.

Maybe in the near future when things settle down I will wander up to Caboolture and reweigh the our latest caravan to have a clearer idea where we are heading with our weights.

Enjoy.

Desert Dweller · Guru

There must be a huge percentage of rigs traveling around that are overweight. Knowingly or otherwise.

Every bell & whistle that is added to a tow vehicle reduces its legal towing capacity.

That's why we love having a vehicle rated to tow 2800kg & our van weighs 1600kg fully loaded.

We have a clear conscience.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Yep, know the feeling Dibs. I went through that exersise just before leaving Townsville in September. Van was a tad over so culled and now a tad under. Collie was under but not what I wanted or planned so culled and rearranged, now it's way under even with van hooked up. I spent a week playing around and two trips to the local weighbridge at the tip, so I am happy now and the legal eagles should be too.

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

mr glassies · Guru

Ok I did forget one thing I did enquire about I went and spoke to my engineer about raising the gvm of the ute . I could get 140 extr with the springs I had but and this is a BIG BUT it dosnt give you more gcm it's actually means you have to take away some van weight if it loaded to the max . Or like the book says 6000 kgs I my case and I have alowedfor 3000 in the van . I even put the ball scales under the ball yesterday and it came up 250 kgs . Now I know that's static that's have left 300 kgs on it. I know it's not enough to cover the weights it would get to one some of the roads out there it's a small comfort zone . I have driven a semi tipper with scales on it and the bounce in the gauge was crazy even crawling out of the quarry .

It's not a spur of the moment thing I have been playing with weights for a fair wile now it's only since I got the new scales I have come to terms with it .

Ian I know not every Varner isn't on here but 130 odd viewers and only 4 comments lmdo . Makes ya wonder if they were shaking that much they couldn't type hahahahaha .

Doug it's a pain yea and the weigh bridge bill ads up after a while I was lucky when we lived at landsborough a m8 ran it so I got it free . Now we're at imbill gympie is the closest that's why I spent or should I say della got me this for Xmas hahaha . Now I can do it on. Any slab of creat .

If someone could tell me how much and a weight how much the tub does weigh as the best I have come up with 4 guys can lift one Holden couldn't and that couldn't even tell me what the tare weight was or how much I could save with an ally tray .

That's the way I'm going aloytray minium tools and stuff in. The tug . See it's like this they are doing weight checks not as bad as trucks . It will only take a few more crashes with vans befor some transport big wig or high up cop say Hamer time . And I for one haven't spent close to $ 100, 000 to get told ya can't drive any more till it's fixed let alone pay the overloaded fine crash out and be left with no insurance bla bla bla .

Enough for now have a merry Xmas and a safe new yr everyone
Dibs

WAssa41 · Senior Member

This is just a thought. The gross mass of your caravan is 3500 when standing alone, the minute you place it on your truck it is 3150. 350 is now part of your trucks payload. The curb weight of the truck is I think 2020 with the combined gross 6000 less 5170 (3150 + 2020) your combined pay load is 830. 350 of the 830 can be placed in the van (as long as you do not increase the ball weight) leaving you 480 payload for the truck. The only time you are breaking the law is when you take the van of the truck then then it will weight 3700.

Merry xmas

Wassa

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

works well in theory Wassa

.... however, it seems the whole outfit is right at (or over?) its legal limit/s. cry

It doesn't help solve Dib's problem. However, these scenarios being played out by so many on the road towing with one of the popular utes - rated to tow 3,500Kg - occurs because the 'marketers' of these utes seem to over-ride the engineers, and provide 'numbers' that 'sell better'.

In the calculations arrived at (whether as marketing or engineering) do not include any allowance for additions/modifications to the vehicle.

And quite probably, whilst a "number" is included in the specs for 'towing ability' it does not have any bearing on how the ute will be used.

The sad outcome, is there are so many people on the road with such utes, overloaded and quite probably ignorant, towing vans that are too big and heavy to be safe.

On top of that ... think of the poor tradie - ute loaded with all his 'tools of trade', big tandem trailer attached with bobcat etc ... accidents waiting to happen.

Cheers - and Merry Xmas to Dibs and all ... hope it works out Dibs - John

Hewy54 · Senior Member

WAssa41 wrote:
This is just a thought. The gross mass of your caravan is 3500 when standing alone, the minute you place it on your truck it is 3150. 350 is now part of your trucks payload. The curb weight of the truck is I think 2020 with the combined gross 6000 less 5170 (3150 + 2020) your combined pay load is 830. 350 of the 830 can be placed in the van (as long as you do not increase the ball weight) leaving you 480 payload for the truck. The only time you are breaking the law is when you take the van of the truck then then it will weight 3700.
Merry xmas
Wassa

I may be wrong here, but I believe the ATM of the van (which is stamped on the compliance plate) includes the ball weight. The weight of the van, unhitched from the car, fully loaded, must not exceed the ATM.

Hylife · Guru

In Victoria, only when purchasing a new vehicle, and only before it has ever been registered for the first time (anywhere), if you have your dealer send your vehicle to have its suspension upgraded, (eg Pedders etc), and they issue a certificate to the dealer about the increased payload or towing capabilities, then the dealer can do the first registration with the increased figures making it all nice and legal.

However, once you have registered it, anywhere, you CANNOT get any of the weights or towing limits changed from what the manufacturer stated on the new vehicle (in Victoria) regardless of any engineering certificates. The limits that are applied to the first registration are fixed for the life of the vehicle in Victoria, and they DO NOT recognise interstate issued certificates. EG, if you got it approved in NSW, when you go to get Vic registration VicRoads will not recognise the upgraded limits.

ken thomas · Guru

The manf can issue you with an increased ATM plate if you have a vehicle that can take the increase.
Ken

Bass · Senior Member

Hi Dibs, that is exactly why we got rid of a very good DMax and got a 200 series GX landcruiser. By the way my GX has no GCM posted. It was an expensive option but one we had to make.

Cheers bass

migra · Senior Member

i have a 200 series and have read that the GCM is 6850kg's.

These are the calculations for the current weights of my vehicle (stock suspension).

It shows I am currently 124kg's overweight.

GVM - Motor Vehicle (Must not exceed 3300kgs)						3300
Tare Weight						2590
Kerb Weight						2700
GCM - Gross Combined Weight ( must not exceed 6850kgs)						5776
Gross trailer weight braked must not exceed 3500 kgs						3500
Front Axle Load						1630
Rear Axle Load						1950
Total Axle Load						3580
Vehicle Maximum Payload						600
Weight of Accessories						50
Weight of People						125
Weight of Luggage						100
Weight of Generator						20
Weight of BBQ						10
Refrigerator						20
Weight of Tools						15
Weight of Fuel						138
Towball Weight of Caravan						250
Vehicle Payload Available						-124

Footprints · Senior Member

Don't overlook small trucks. I have Isuzu NPR275 GCM 9000 kg. Weight no problem, short wheelbase park anywhere, economical and super stable on all road conditions and they are cheaper new than some of the Utes available result equals safe, safe, safe.

Cheers Allen

macka17 · Guru

Footprints has the best idea if you into max weight\size vans.
Specially if it comes in dual cab..

ANY rig where they both of equal weight or trailer heavier than tug is basically
illegal.

Only a fool would tow a 3 or more ton van with a dual cab Ute avail in this country
Regardless of the plates stating 3.2\3.5 ton towbar weight.

There isn't one I know of I'd feel safe in. With much over 2.5 ton max behind it.

Engine power. Yep loads of.
Stability, narrow axle grip on roads
and control of the trailer when things get off balance.
Near to zero.
The trailer WILL control the tug.

Every other country I know of apart from these idiots,
Normally state that 3\4's or thereabouts of the tugs weight.
Is MAX allowed for trailer.

I've always kept my rigs with tug a minimum of 300kg
MORE weight than the trailer. Preferably\usually, More.

Current rig is D,max 2.9ish ton loaded. 535 tandem van, A tad under 2 ton.
Just nice in my eyes.
and in reality until you want a shower unit in van, 18ish ft is more than big enuff to live in.
This one has ext shower\tut tent, HWS.

Just get rid of all the crap to drag around with you.
and 65% of it, NEVER use.

Sit and look around you now..
Put a red tag on everything you haven't used in last say 3 months...

You'll be surprised if you honest with yourself.

I've been vanning for over 50 yrs, any van I own nowadays,
is NEVER more than half full at most.

You don't need it all.
Either shed it with family. OR get rid off.
You never will use.

Have a good clean out as New Yr Resolution.
Less weight. less fuel consumption. heavier wallet.
SAFER rig.
Plus. Plus. all round.

Have a gud one and safe New Year All.

Bill B · Guru

migra wrote:

i have a 200 series and have read that the GCM is 6850kg's.
These are the calculations for the current weights of my vehicle (stock suspension).
It shows I am currently 124kg's overweight.

GVM - Motor Vehicle (Must not exceed 3300kgs) 3300
Tare Weight 2590
Kerb Weight 2700
GCM - Gross Combined Weight ( must not exceed 6850kgs) 5776
Gross trailer weight braked must not exceed 3500 kgs 3500
Front Axle Load 1630
Rear Axle Load 1950
Total Axle Load 3580
Vehicle Maximum Payload 600
Weight of Accessories 50
Weight of People 125
Weight of Luggage 100
Weight of Generator 20
Weight of BBQ 10
Refrigerator 20
Weight of Tools 15
Weight of Fuel 138
Towball Weight of Caravan 250
Vehicle Payload Available
-124

Fuel is included in kerb weight and if your GCM is 6850 kgs your GVM is 3350 kgs.

C00P · Senior Member

Went through this exercise before heading out in our 76 series Land Cruiser and van.
Found that we could put very little in the tug when the van is hooked up- about 40kg over and above full fuel and two adults (we have a long range tank).
We removed the rear seat from the Cruiser to give us a bit more payload.
Basically, our solution was to put most of the stuff we wanted to take with us in the van. We finished up about 100kg overweight in the van but with all other figures within the limits. As we were carrying some stuff to deliver to our kids (who we were visiting along the way) so that would be dropped off. We simply reduced the amount of water in our van tanks to compensate, knowing that we could top them up once the other stuff had been delivered.
It seems you can have a well-equipped off-road vehicle (Racks, roo bar, winch, fridge, etc., etc.) or you can have a tug that can pull 3500kg, but you can't have both unless you have a very light van or buy a truck.
There's some interesting reading here:
www.motoring.com.au/the-truth-about-3500kg-towing-52878/

Cheers

C00P

rockylizard · Guru

Hylife wrote:
In Victoria, only when purchasing a new vehicle, and only before it has ever been registered for the first time (anywhere), if you have your dealer send your vehicle to have its suspension upgraded, (eg Pedders etc), and they issue a certificate to the dealer about the increased payload or towing capabilities, then the dealer can do the first registration with the increased figures making it all nice and legal.
However, once you have registered it, anywhere, you CANNOT get any of the weights or towing limits changed from what the manufacturer stated on the new vehicle (in Victoria) regardless of any engineering certificates. The limits that are applied to the first registration are fixed for the life of the vehicle in Victoria, and they DO NOT recognise interstate issued certificates. EG, if you got it approved in NSW, when you go to get Vic registration VicRoads will not recognise the upgraded limits.

Gday...

confuse are you QUITE sure about that Hylife ??

Have a gander at this site -

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/vehicle-modifications-and-defects/vehicle-modifications/notify-vicroads-of-changes-and-modifications

Please read all the info ... but to save a bit of scrolling I snipped these bits -

VicRoads 03.JPG

VicRoads 01.JPG

VicRoads 02.JPG

Cheers - John

migra · Senior Member

According to Toyota, the kerb weight includes approx 10Ltrs of fuel.

rockylizard · Guru

Bass wrote:
Hi Dibs, that is exactly why we got rid of a very good DMax and got a 200 series GX landcruiser. By the way my GX has no GCM posted. It was an expensive option but one we had to make.

Cheers bass

Gday...

Interesting Bass confuse

These are the dimensions quoted by Toyota ... GCM 6850Kg -

http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-200/specifications/gx-turbo-diesel-auto

LC200 01.JPG

On those numbers, if towing a 3,500Kg van and assume tow ball weight of 350Kg then that only leaves 470Kg for EVERYTHING else.

Two people possibly 140Kg; fuel possibly 120Kg (given some fuel in in TARE; 100Kg for 'luggage'; genny (?) 20Kg; Fridge 20Kg; and there isn't much leeway for any other accessories or mods.

Solution obviously means that as long as towing less than 3,000Kg ATM (ACTUAL trailer mass) then even 200 Series Cruisers fly close to the wind.

Cheers - John

Ron-D · Guru

This overweight thing with the tow vehicles and the caravan riight down to the last kilo ,are we going over the top with it,I know its a safety issue but has it gone mad ,are we going to be fined big dollars in the future for carrying 40 kilos over weight,that's B/s .....

macka17 · Guru

No RON-D.

The major problem is
all those people trying to take so much with them
in the biggest possible van they can afford.
With as much crap as they can load into it.

The prime problem (in this country).
is the lack of suitable sized\capacity tow vehicles
available to us without importing one for yourself.

We have toys here.

SUper-duper Toyota's. When you boil it down, are capable to towing
300kg more than Patrol and carrying 30kg's internally less.

I think, in comparisons. that the 200ser tojo and 62? ser Patrol will be very similar.

A lot of us have been travelling for a lot of yrs,
All over the world in some cases. (44yrs here in mine.)

These huge van sizes are dealer\builder influenced to those sizes.

More money for them,
bigger the van sold, bigger the $$$"s in his pocket.

Very few of the veteran travellers will have a van much over 19ft6in inside.
Max.

Most around the 18ish ft.

Buy the tug you want.
then match the van you want. with the weights being tug, 300kgish
heavier than tow.
and load accordingly.

Then YOU'll be safe. everybody else will be safer.
and the boys in blue. Now they finally getting serious about it.
Won't be parking you with all the others. on the side of the road
waiting for a truck to take your van back home for you.

It'll happen.

There's going to be either a lot of large vans, for sale.
or a lot of the current tugs put in, in exchange for small trucks.

People are now starting to realise .. you can't have it both ways.

and Unfortunately.
Financially, some are going to suffer through bad advice\decisions.

banjo · Senior Member

We have been on the road full time for 5 years now and see this issue constantly, it's all accidents waiting to happen. And as for "I'm only 40-50kg over so I'm fine attitude" tell that to the insurance or families of the people you may kill one day if the sh*t hits the fan !

Think the worst was a BT50 towing a large bunk type family van, 2 adults, 2 male teenagers, 4 bikes, a boat with all the ancillary equipment on a boat loader and god knows what else, and a canoe strapped to the side of the boat.

Did see that the boat was also stacked underneath with gear also and the back tray of the ute had a 40ltr and an 80ltr engel ! they were interstate travelers doing the big lap. When I casually queried his load he quickly replied "no worries mate, I've had the springs and shockies done, and it handles it easily"

We tow a 5th wheeler with an Isuzu npr 250 small truck, heaps of payload, stacks of torque and power, from a 5.2 ltr turbo intercooled diesel and as economical as most big 4x4's and cheaper to buy !

Bill B · Guru

migra wrote:

According to Toyota, the kerb weight includes approx 10Ltrs of fuel.

Based on your theory what accounts for the difference between tare & kerb weights ?

-- Edited by Bill B on Sunday 25th of December 2016 03:59:55 PM

Ron-D · Guru

Well now being fourty kilos overweight Iam going to kill someone's misses and kids Banjo thats a ridiculousness statement ..

TheHeaths · Guru

I guess the comment I make is at what weight over the legal load of the vehicle does it become an issue?

Sort of like how much over the speed limit becomes an issue.

Unfortunately, there has to be a point at which it becomes illegal, and action should be taken and people should make a real effort to comply.

Hewy54 · Senior Member

TheHeaths wrote:
I guess the comment I make is at what weight over the legal load of the vehicle does it become an issue?

Sort of like how much over the speed limit becomes an issue.

Unfortunately, there has to be a point at which it becomes illegal, and action should be taken and people should make a real effort to comply.

Agree with you once again.

Always recall an ad on TV about drink driving, where the little kid says "I'm only a bit over the limit".

We have laws and there are limits that we need to stick to.

macka17 · Guru

Question Banjo.

That NPR 250. Does it come in
Dual cab?
4WD?.
Auto?.
Twin rears?
Cab, Chassis?.

2 kilo's. 20kilo's, 200kilo's.
All overweight. All will cop same fine.

Unfortunately both the dealers and Mfg's telling what you want to hear.
and bad decision making, by people NOT checking properly
will make a lot of people very outside of the highways measurements and law.

With NO recourse financially.

The dealers and the manufacturers both have a great deal to answer for.

I and others have been advocating this for decades.
Unfortunately. It's now about to come home to roost.

"Nah. Never happen to me. She'll be right."

Not in todays world of litigation I'm afraid.

PS.

I had a 28fter in the '60's.

BUT. it was truck mount, transportable. on a flatbed.

Some of these modern railway carriage sized vans should be too.

-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 26th of December 2016 05:26:16 AM

mr glassies · Guru

I'm at a Los .ug is now striped down to bare tub , bull bar , sax springs , and a few little hinges . Still 2480 kgs or 2.4 tonne .

Reading te bible if my van weighs 3500 my ute has to be 2500 is states 6000 combined .That's from towing specs page 139 from 2012 colerado owners manual.
I m going to the rta tomorrow and ask them what the rules are . But I'm thinking if my van weighs 3100 as it is I should be able to have 2900 on the ute . That gives me 420 pay load not a lot when I want to carry a fridge and a few tools wife and other little things . I have thought to get my weight down a bit more I could put an alloy tray on and with my tools and things I should be able to get tat running weight down to the same or close to the ute as it sits with the tub on it now ( can't get an answer on tub weight Iv asked on a lot of forums best I can come up with is 4 guys can lift it . On that assumption I'm reckoning about 150 ish kgs ally tray about 70 kgs) I don't want to be rite on the edge I want a bit of leeway .
I don't want to loose my insurance or risk being put of the road and paying an overloading fine .

Makes you wonder how many are out there over loaded .

Dibs

TheHeaths · Guru

Dibs,

before real panic sets in, is there any way you can weigh your van set up to go. That is with everything on it and in it. That at you will know if it is 3500 kg, 3200 kg or whatever. You also need to get the accurate ball weight when loaded, as that has to be added to the cars load as well. I think without that weight you are never truly going to know.

That way you will know what you have to play with. If you are just estimating the weight at the moment, you may be doing a lot of work and worry you don't need to, or you may need to look further than taking bits off of the car.

Just an idea, as this is obviously causing you a great deal of stress, and I think you need to get it right for your peace of mind when you are done.