While in Toowoomba recently, I had to have some work done on the van (which some members here assisted with) & as the van was coming up to time for a service, I asked if they could do one. Thanks & $275 later we were on the road. I found they repacked the bearings & replaced a magnet as it was cracking but didn't replace the seals (they claimed you could tap them out, inspect & refit). I called my service man in Townsville asking should I be concerned - he said as long as you don't have any brake problems (I assume grease getting on the shoes).
As we were coming out of Narrabri (NSW), I had to stop & STOP we did - suddenly. The van brakes locked up! So the trip to Canberra was interesting to say the least, mostly all was normal & I took it easy but quite a few times it was "STOP" - fortunately without a big bull bar behind!
Booked it into Jayco Canberra - another $200 later. They said they had a look, reset everything the way it should be but backed off the adjustment a bit - "try it & see". But as we were staying at our son's place, I said I wouldn't have the opportunity to try it until we left.
On the way home, I found the first time of activating the brakes out of a park, it was again "STOP" - the rest of the day's travel was ok. Could the fault be in the controller (a Tekonsha P3)? Do I have to go through the instruction booklet & reset the unit? I haven't done anything much to it since buying the bigger van. It has been perfect for twelve months.
Thanks,
Warren
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Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
How handy are you???? I do all my own servicing. Cars x 4,Van, Boat and Trailer. I'm practical.
I do my electrical van brakes while hitched to the tow truck, with all connected, so the brakes can be activated by my wife.
Jack your van up one side at a time so tyres are clear of the ground. Buy yourself a Brake adjuster tool from Repco or Super Cheap Auto $12. They look like a bent screw Driver.
If you look on the inside of your brake drum. ( Please place supports under your van first. A MUST.) You will see at the bottom a black rubber grommet at the bottom. Pull off.
With the aid of a torch you will see a small wheel with notches in it. This is the adjuster wheel. Back your control unit in the car to number 2. Using your new tool turn the adjuster wheel clockwise to move the brake shoe out, anti clockwise to reduce the brake shoe in.
1. When you are set up under your van, spin the first tyre and get the wife the apply the brake peddle. keep spinning till the brake shoe just grabs the wheel.
Brake peddle off spin the wheel again and get wife to apply the brake peddle. wheel will stop. Place black rubber plug cap back on and do same to next wheel.
2.When done do the other side of van.
3.Then reset the brake controller to No 3 and take for a test run applying the brakes. If needed move up one notch on the controller at a time till van and car pullup smoothly. job done and done properly.
Its the correct way to have safe travels.
Doing the van in a workshop on its owe is BS and a waste of your money.
Have a look on You Tube.
Just remember (Do not take short cuts and use supports when ever the van is off the ground.)
Changing out both the brake shoes and magnets are simple as well, and You get to know how every thing works.
Knowledge is power.
PS: it takes less then an hour of my time to do all 4 wheels on mine.
Regards Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Friday 17th of November 2017 09:37:57 PM
How handy are you???? I do all my own servicing. Cars x 4,Van, Boat and Trailer. I'm practical.
I do my electrical van brakes while hitched to the tow truck, with all connected, so the brakes can be activated by my wife.
Jack your van up one side at a time so tyres are clear of the ground. Buy yourself a Brake adjuster tool from Repco or Super Cheap Auto $12. They look like a bent screw Driver.
If you look on the inside of your brake drum. ( Please place supports under your van first. A MUST.) You will see at the bottom a black rubber grommet at the bottom. Pull off.
With the aid of a torch you will see a small wheel with notches in it. This is the adjuster wheel. Back your control unit in the car to number 2. Using your new tool turn the adjuster wheel clockwise to move the brake shoe out, anti clockwise to reduce the brake shoe in.
1. When you are set up under your van, spin the first tyre and get the wife the apply the brake peddle. keep spinning till the brake shoe just grabs the wheel.
Brake peddle off spin the wheel again and get wife to apply the brake peddle. wheel will stop. Place black rubber plug cap back on and do same to next wheel.
2.When done do the other side of van.
3.Then reset the brake controller to No 3 and take for a test run applying the brakes. If needed move up one notch on the controller at a time till van and car pullup smoothly. job done and done properly.
Its the correct way to have safe travels.
Doing the van in a workshop on its owe is BS and a waste of your money.
Have a look on You Tube.
Just remember (Do not take short cuts and use supports when ever the van is off the ground.)
Changing out both the brake shoes and magnets are simple as well, and You get to know how every thing works.
Knowledge is power.
PS: it takes less then an hour of my time to do all 4 wheels on mine.
Regards Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Friday 17th of November 2017 09:37:57 PM
Jim ..
Perhaps the issue here is related to the brake controller. Given that two van repairers have looked at the van brakes, the adjustment is probably OK.
................................................
On the topic of brake adjustment your method is probably OK, I have never tried that approach but ..
I recently replaced all of my van brake mechanical & electrical stuff from the backing plates outwards.
I used my time worn adjustment approach & wound the adjusters up fully & then backed off till the wheels turned freely & just went 'ching ching' when I spun the wheel.
Buggar me, they worked with only 50% efficiency.
So off I went to a trailer specialist & he quickly re adjusted using the ... 'wind up tight & then back off 13 clicks' method ... Guess what - Perfect, better than ever & only cost $100 cash.
So there you go.
..........................
Back to the OP ..
Why would you reuse the old seals. New ones are only a couple of dollars each ($3 from memory). Pretty sloppy I reckon. I would only do that in an emergency. I even carry a new seal in with my spares.
Also the probability of the cause of the trouble being the brake controler is very high. Why the repairers didn't check this is a mystery ... sloppy once again. Unless they weren't told of the symptoms.
I'd strongly suggest that you get out the controller instructions & go thru them step by step a couple of times until you are completely confident with your understanding of them. I'd be very surprised if that didn't fix the problem. IMHO the driver needs to understand how that user adjustable safety aspect works.
-- Edited by Cupie on Saturday 18th of November 2017 10:44:01 AM
Hello everyone,
Thanks for your replies.
Jim,
First to you - generally I've been "very handy" but what put me off a bit was a near accident I had a few years ago where I "welded one wheel bearing to the axle" - possibly due to the seal blowing out earlier down the Hume Highway. I had serviced the van prior to leaving home some 8,000 kms earlier.
I do have the brake adjusting tool & will be under the van soon in the next few days, checking the adjustments.
Keith - yes, you're right the car did stop (almost whiplash).
Boost mode - no the controller isn't showing that & if that was the case, I would have thought that the brakes would jam on hard every time - not once in a while when we were not expecting it.
Regarding Jayco Canberra, I told them the symptoms but I didn't consider that the controller was the issue & they obviously didn't either. Hindsight being a good teacher (again), I should have taken the van for a longer drive than between Cook & Queanbeyan. There were no issues on that 15km trip.
I know intermittent faults are dashed hard to fix - the fault has to be "on" to be found. This morning I've done some further testing - with readings taken off the controller screen.
Brake pedal normal - "Battery Volts" - 14.24 Brake pedal operated - 14.24v
"Stop light" - 0.04 - Varying from 13.7 to 14.1
"O/put volts" - 0 - 2.9
"O/p current" - 0 - 1.0
Is the output voltage of the controller too low? Is there a minimum voltage as I know on a service the brakes are tested with a small 12v battery?
I'll contact an auto electrician tomorrow.
Warren
__________________
Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
From your last post it seems that you are pretty handy.
I went back & re read your OP.
It's unlikely, but if the lock up happened on the first application of the breaks for the day, then this is sometimes caused by surface rust on the drums. Happens to me often as I come down the slope from my home parking spot.
I always rest my foot lightly on the brakes every morning until they ware off any rust & operate normally.
You're right, intermittent faults are hard to find.
Having brake linnings that are out of adjustment or backed off 4-10 turns will cause aggressive braking
Why ?
The linning travels out partially under low volts but the brakes are not applied . By the time the linning contacts drum its carrying more applied voltage making the initial application aggressive . The system was never designed to work like this !!
Mechanical
Drum linnings work by a wedge effect
If the linnings are a poor match [ represent a different diameter ] to the drum shape they need to be radius ground .
Over heated linnings go hard and similar to above maynot be a perfect match for drum .
Electrical
Programing of controller
Wiring
Earths must be at least 4.5mmsq [6mmauto] cable upto 8mmsq all the way from car battery to controller to trailer plug onto brake magnets .
The pos cable needs to be the same
Cabling is a common fault
SET UP
Van load distributution
van and car riding level
Tyre pressures
Warren, not to get off topic, but you mentioned that you once had a seal blow out and now you do not feel confident doing your own work.
If that seal was the type that is enclosed in a rubber compound, then it was nothing you did wrong. That type of seal should be banned, because as they are tapped in the compound stretches and springs back, resulting in the seal falling out.
Make sure no matter who replaces the seal, that it is the type that has the metal outer surround.
Warren I have experiened a similar intermittent problem with the same model controller where a light brake application would result in hard braking from the caravan. Our controller is hard wired to the battery and is thus always on whether ignition is on or off.
The problem was cured by unplugging the brake controller from the loom and reconnecting after some seconds. thus allowing the controller to reset. Have not had problem since with 6 months of travel behind us.
Just as an aside re brake adjustment. Backing off the adjusters 13 clicks from lockup is excessive and unnecessary. Backing off 2-4 clicks is usually all that's required to allow the wheel to spin free with no drag.
On old cars with 4 wheel drum brakes backing off the adjusters excessively would result in the brake pedal being very close to floor on brake application and the car brought back to have the brakes adjusted properly by an irate customer.
Just as an aside re brake adjustment. Backing off the adjusters 13 clicks from lockup is excessive and unnecessary. Backing off 2-4 clicks is usually all that's required to allow the wheel to spin free with no drag.
On old cars with 4 wheel drum brakes backing off the adjusters excessively would result in the brake pedal being very close to floor on brake application and the car brought back to have the brakes adjusted properly by an irate customer.
Alan
Alan ..
You may well be right.
But (& there's always a but) as previously mentioned I have always used the method on the older drum braked cars, where the adjuster was backed off just enough for the wheel to spin freely with a slight 'ching' ching' sound as the shoe touched the drum. In my experience this was more than 2 or 3 clicks; more like 5 to 10.
BUT my recent experience & the 13 click method used by a Trailer Repair 'Tradesman' that solved my poor braking problem speaks for itself.
However the AlKo manual no longer mentions the 13 click approach.
Another consideration with drum brakes are that they are all subject to differing characteristics dependant on temperature. Drum brakes that are warm after average use in traffic do work a little bit more efficiently but and it is a big but.. drum brakes that become excessively hot do not work at all. Drum brakes that are used to excess will pop the grease seal out of the hub due to pressure build up in the hub when hot. The metal bodied seals are better generally although harder to get these days. Not overpacking grease into the hub will help a lot to stop this happening. As it was mentioned in an above post, adjust the brakes until the wheel just locks from turning by hand (in other words dont wind it up until you cant turn the adjuster any more) and then back the adjuster off until the wheel just turns freely. Adjusting drum brakes is not a service item that is governed by time or mileage but more on how the brakes are used. For example I recently travelled down the Bells Line of Road from Lithgow to Windsor and although I did the journey as easy as I could without getting the brakes excessively hot, the van brakes needed adjusting before I continued on my journey. Waiting for a scheduled service interval under this type of use may cause the brakes to not operate as they should. When we are dealing with drum brakes on a caravan we really need to wind our mechanical knowledge clock back 40 to 50 years.
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"Seek the truth or bury you head in the sand, both require some digging"
My 2 bobs worth., drum brakes are called *self servoing* which on a caravan means that backing off 13 or so clicks will not affect braking performance, just adust controller for van brakes to lead the car brakes, overadusted linings will get hot @ cause the van brakes to lock up, someone said the brakes work by a wedging effect, this is called a servo brake.
Firstly I checked the brake adjustment under the van. Canberra Jayco certainly backed off the brake adjustment, to say the least. I checked the driver's side first. With the hand brake on, I could freely spin the wheel!! No wonder why I doubts about the brakes working a little lightly on the way home. I set the adjustment to full on, then backed off about 5-6 clicks. Tried the and brake & found all worked ok. I found the LHS adjustment not as far out (question did Canberra Jayco have two staff working on my van or ??????). I reset this to the same as the RHS.
Secondly, I found the brake controller power setting was at 10! How this happened, I do not know - whether something was put in the front & it rested on the power setting is anyone's guess (my wife's knitting bag?). I have the controller installed just to the left of the gear lever as where it was when I bought the car, either it went or my legs went & no sale! I have no problems reaching the manual control.
Well we went for a drive to Gunnado Road (obviously named by a woman whose hubby was gunna do a job or jobs (but never did) yesterday & from there to the Old Flinders Highway where we could do some break tests without upsetting the traffic on the main Flinders Highway.
The tests - reset the power to 6.0 as per the instructions & operated the manual control - the van pulled up without excess lock ups. Tests at 40kph & later at 100 & 80 showed a more positive & safer feeling of braking on both the minor road & highway than the two senarios of the trip south & then back north again. What caused the intermittent sudden operation lockups from Narrabri to Canberra, I don't know. I'm certain I applied the brakes more often than the 1/2 dozen times it all locked up.
Geoff (Dickodownunder),
I know the chap who has serviced my van in February did a brake adjustment after repacking the bearings - I saw him do it (in his back yard).
We're off again in a month's time to the same locations (except Lord Howe Island) but are leaving the van at home. If anyone wants to know the way from Townsville to Canberra, to Toowoomba & back to Townsville, just ask my car as it starts heading toward the 500,000 km mark.
Warren
__________________
Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
This is why I am going to be doing all my own caravan servicing, will be buying a brake adjustment lever soon. Plus putting together a tool kit and consumables to do the same. Enquired at a couple of van parks to see if its OK for me to do this, and the answer was affirmative, just don't change the oil in the vehicle motor.
I note Jayco have used good Japanese bearings, which I will be re-using for as long as I can.
I find the Go_pro adjustment knob hard to see, and am going to make up a cheat sheet with a large picture of the button and adjustment direction, and stick it on the back of the sun visor, so at least I will be turning it in the correct direction when making van braking adjustments.
Good to see your brake problems are sorted. If you need a job done properly, do it yourself.
