Tow Ball weight - tare or max?

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

Tow Ball weight - tare or max?

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

Pic attached

iana · Guru

The max tow ball weight is what the tow vehicle, or the tow bar manufacturer states. That is the weight imposed on the rear of the tow vehicle, and ensures the structure is strong enough to handle that load. With the towed van, the center of load must be forward of the wheels to ensure stability. The way to have that is to have positive weight on the tow hitch. Generally about 10%, but it can be between 4-15% of the weight of the towed vehicle. Those figures 4% if you are in Europe up to 15% if you are towing in America, generally in Australia the rule of thumb is 10%, but there is no laid down rule, I use about 6-8%.

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

Yes, it's very clear what the car max tow ball weight is. What I want to know is which figure is applicable (legally and insurance-wise) for the caravan? Is it the (what Bailey have called) Tare - 80 or the Max Load - 150?

I'm not talking about what is recommended, or desirable, or a 'rule of thumb'. I mean if you get pulled over and transport police, or police look at the facts & figures of your car and the caravan plate - or you make an insurance claim.

iana · Guru

There is no stipulation for the tow ball weight to be entered on the caravan compliance plate. All the transport police will be looking for is your combined mass of both vehicles, and whether the tow vehicle or the van is over loaded.

TheHeaths · Guru

The police and insurance will not look at Tare ball weight, as you will not be at Tare when towing.

They may weigh the van if they are able to see what the actual ball weight is, or if unable to weigh the van, they may just take it that as you are loaded then you are at the maximum weight allowed. You will only find out when it happens. As far as legality is concerned, the Maximum Tow Ball weight is the legal limit for the van.

What is quite clear. Your car manufacturer has set a maximum ball weight limit of 100 kg. Exceed that at your own peril and liability.

-- Edited by TheHeaths on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 10:56:42 AM

montie · Guru

wfdTamar wrote:
Yes, it's very clear what the car max tow ball weight is. What I want to know is which figure is applicable (legally and insurance-wise) for the caravan? Is it the (what Bailey have called) Tare - 80 or the Max Load - 150?

I'm not talking about what is recommended, or desirable, or a 'rule of thumb'. I mean if you get pulled over and transport police, or police look at the facts & figures of your car and the caravan plate - or you make an insurance claim.

The measured weight of your towball cannot legally exceed the lesser of the following

1) The tug manufacturer's rating which in your case is 100kg

2) The towbar rating

3)The van manufacturer's maximum rating which for you is 150kg

In your case your towball weight cannot exceed 100kg. Now your van's ATM is 1500kg and I assume you intend to load it to that weight which will make it difficult to maintain a 100kg ball weight which is 6.5%. Your measured ball weight should ideally be around 10% of the loaded van weight.

The dealer is probably offering you sensible advice.

migra · Senior Member

Very simple, the weight attached to the car's tow ball CANNOT exceed 100kg.

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

European car and van. The 10% rule is an Australian thing meant as a guide and more applicable to heavier Australian vans.

Now - how many times/ways can I say this? - I understand that the car has a limit of 100kg. I did state that in the original post.

THE issue is the dealer suggesting the van is unsuitable for that car having a maximum ball weight of 150 kg. Talking on another place, we came to the conclusion the dealer is wrong. The tare limit of the vans ball is 80 and that is within the cars capability so its legal - and the CIAA produce a document that proves it. The 150 van max ball weight comes into it if connected to a vehicle with a far greater ball weight limit - for example a 4wd might have a 250 kg limit, but that van can only go to the 150, no more. Thats the point of the max ball weight on the van.

https://www.facebook.com/download/preview/1609609369084608

-- Edited by wfdTamar on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 06:28:37 PM

-- Edited by wfdTamar on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 07:43:30 PM

iana · Guru

For God sake, read what we have written as your answer. What is the towing limit of your vehicle?, that is the citeria. If your car can tow 1500 kg, then that van if it weighs 1500kg fully loaded would be OK, what is the combined mass of both vehicles when fully loaded, including people and pets, and if that is with in the limit of the tow vehicles rating, then you are OK.
As I said earlier, there is no requirement to have any figure at all stamped on the vans compliance plate for maximum ball weight, it is not required. It is the weight stipulated by the tow vehicle or tow bar manufacturer, which ever is the less that is the number you take note of.
But you cant just take a towing load that is beyond your vehicles towing limit, and just put load in at the rear so that the ball weight falls to what the vans compliance plate says.

Dickodownunder · Guru

Monties post and advice above is spot on.

If a manufacturer OF A VAN has placed a limit on the compliance plate for the tow ball rating then that weight needs to be considered in the assessment of the weights allowed.
It really doesent matter if the tow bar or tow vehicle rating is higher the maximum has been stated by the van manufacturer.

On the other hand if the tow vehicles tow ball weight is lower than the rated weight by the van manufacturer then the lower figure will apply.

This tow ball rating will be stated because of the design of the draw bar and the chassis and will be a reflection of the design engineers rating that is considered safe and within limits of the design.

-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 07:16:16 PM

montie · Guru

wfdTamar wrote:
European car and van. The 10% rule is an Australian thing meant as a guide and more applicable to heavier Australian vans.

Now - how many times/ways can I say this? - I understand that the car has a limit of 100kg. I did state that in the original post.

THE issue is the dealer suggesting the van is unsuitable for that car having a maximum ball weight of 150 kg. Talking on another place, we came to the conclusion the dealer is wrong. The tare limit of the vans ball is 80 and that is within the cars capability so its legal - and the CIAA produce a document that proves it. The 150 van max ball weight comes into it if connected to a vehicle with a fare greater ball weight limit - for example a 4wd might have a 250 kg limit, but that van can only go to the 150, no more. Thats the point of the max ball weight on the van.
https://www.facebook.com/download/preview/1609609369084608
You know sometimes people only want to hear what suits them.
Your measured ball weight cannot exceed 100kg....end of story.
Move on.

-- Edited by wfdTamar on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 06:28:37 PM

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

From the CIAA file linked to in a post above:
Tow Ball Weight (Tow Ball Load at TARE) C Actual load (or force) specified by the caravan manufacturer exerted on the towbar when the trailer is at TARE. When any fluids, luggage and personal effects or after-market fittings/equipment are added, the tow ball load will vary from tow ball at TARE specified on the vehicle plate.

Maximum Tow Ball Weight (Max Ball Loading) Maximum load (or force) specified by the caravan manufacturer that can be exerted on the towbar at anytime. This load (or force) must not be exceeded when loading or towing the caravan.

I cant believe people can get their knickers in such a knot when actually agreeing with you. Except for those that post irrelevant information, incorrect information, do not address the one question asked, or are just plain rude. Bunch o grumpy old men or what? . Go and have a Bex and a good lie down.

-- Edited by wfdTamar on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 07:52:56 PM

iana · Guru

OK when I brought our van, it had a tow ball weight that when I filled up the water tanks, that is without anything else in the van, the towball weight exceeded the maxtowball weight written on the compliance plate. This was brought to Jayco's attention, and a new compliance plate was issued. I was told by the person doing this at Jayco that from then on, no figures would be entered on the compliance plate as it was not required and was causing issues.
This was confirmed by a member on here that brought a van after ours, and the plate max tow ball weight, was indeed blank.
When I asked the sales person at Jayco if this was some sort of warranty hoax, i.e. I have a claim, sorry but you exceeded the number on your compliance plate, he said it meant nothing.
Is someone on here going to tell me that the draw bar of our van, 150 x 50mm can only take a down force of three or four persons standing on it, come off it.

Kebbin · Guru

In your case the caravan maximum ball weight stamped on the plate doesn't come into it, as your vehicle maximum ball weight overrides it, so 100kg is all that can be loaded onto the tow ball. The caravan manufacturer is covering their butt by putting these ratings on.

-- Edited by Kebbin on Wednesday 2nd of May 2018 08:19:44 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

That's an ironic reply from someone whose expertise comes from Facebook (a link incidentally that I am finding is no longer available)

That said, it is

a) good to see a salesperson putting your safety above a sale. Remember they do not know how you will load it, and if you can keep it below the vehicle maximum, and

b) aiming to keep below the vehicle limit and achieving that are 2 different things until you actually own the van, load it, and maintain the control/safety of the vehicle while towing. I note that the link states that point as well, ie that ball weight will vary once you are no longer at Tare condition.

I wish you well, and will leave you to your reading.

rockylizard · Guru

migra wrote:
Very simple, the weight attached to the car's tow ball CANNOT exceed 100kg.

Gday...

I'm afraid this response really says it all ... them's the onions..... completely irrespective of ANY caravan/trailer that is connected to the vehicle, there CANNOT be any more than 100Kg on the tow ball for this vehicle.

Cheers - John

PeterD · Guru

The answer is simple. If you can keep the ball weight of the van to 100 kg or less when you load it then you can tow it. Have a look at the at the storage locations in the van and see if you can distribute the weight of your things evenly over the whole van.

There are plenty of these vans in the UK. Do a search for Bailey van groups over there. Join one or a few of them and ask them how the ball weight of yours or a similar model change as you load them. I'm sure you will be able to accommodate your loading without transgressing on the ball weight even if you have to leave the forward storage a bit empty.

montie · Guru

PeterD wrote:
The answer is simple. If you can keep the ball weight of the van to 100 kg or less when you load it then you can tow it. Have a look at the at the storage locations in the van and see if you can distribute the weight of your things evenly over the whole van.
There are plenty of these vans in the UK. Do a search for Bailey van groups over there. Join one or a few of them and ask them how the ball weight of yours or a similar model change as you load them. I'm sure you will be able to accommodate your loading without transgressing on the ball weight even if you have to leave the forward storage a bit empty.

Peter,

I think the dealer has concluded that a 1500kg ATM van, if fully loaded, would be very unlikely to support a 100kg ball weight.

And he's probably right. In that circumstance he would expose himself to a not fit for purpose claim plus the rig could be unsafe.

PeterD · Guru

Yes but most of those salesmen have little appreciation of European vans. They base their knowledge on the Oz 10% ball weight.

montie · Guru

PeterD wrote:
Yes but most of those salesmen have little appreciation of European vans. They base their knowledge on the Oz 10% ball weight.

As did Bailey.....they set a maximum ball rating of 150kg on a 1500kg ATM van.

I think that's why the dealer is concerned about the 100kg. The ball is already 80kg empty.

-- Edited by montie on Friday 4th of May 2018 10:10:26 AM

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

The dealer looked at the 150 kg MAX and stupidly presumed a person would load it accordingly and connect it to a car with a 100 kg limit. What they should have looked at is the 80kg Tare ball weight of the van and said,

"Yes, that's OK. Your car limit is 100kg, but be careful about loading the van so you don't exceed that. Buy a tow ball weight measure. Oh and if you connect the van to a huge vehicle that has a 300kg tow ball limit, you're still limited to only 150kg".

Kebbin · Guru

No point in this anymore, Tamar just ask on the other forum, they think a little different to us.

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

Ok bin. I'm asking all over the place as no-one seems to know (what they're talking about).

rockylizard · Guru

wfdTamar wrote:
Yet another tow ball weight issue.
If I have a car with a maximum Tow Ball weight limit of 100kg - and looking at a van that has a chassis label (pic attached) that states:
Ball-loading at Tare Mass (kg) 80
Maximum Permissible Ball-loading (kg) 150
Dealer says 'no sale' as the van's max (150) is over the cars limit (100). I thought they (police/insurance) went by the 80kg? This is the first van I've looked at that has a maximum limit on the compliance plate. I realise packing will have an impact on ball weight and the idea is to locate the van load in a manner to achieve the 80kg ball weight.
Gday...
Praps we need to look at it like this -
The vehicle in question has a manufacturer's stated specification for TBW not to exceed 100Kg - caravan of interest has an ATM of 1500Kg. This caravan has a payload (ATM-TARE) of 280Kg.
So when loaded it can be expected that the towball weight will be somewhere between 7% (105Kg), 8% (120Kg), 9% (135Kg) 10% (150Kg) 11% (165Kg) etc etc. of ATM.
It would therefore seem that on the facts as presented, it is very unlikely that the van in question could safely, and legally, be towed by this vehicle.
Even if loaded lightly or expertly it would be difficult to have the ballweight below 7%. It is almost irrelevant that the van states a max TBW of 150Kg because TBW is actually dictated and mandated by the manufacturer of the vehicle.
I seem to find the dealer's opinion valid and refreshing given how the majority of forum members are regularly castigating dealers/salesmen as rogues misleading and selling unsuitable vans to unsuspecting public.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John

iana · Guru

wfdTamar wrote:
Ok bin. I'm asking all over the place as no-one seems to know (what they're talking about).

Maybe there is a message there?

Dougwe · Chief one feather

This is like opening a

Can of worms.jpg

That said. I have tried to keep out of this but hey, why should I miss out on all the fun smile

I went through the weights and measure thing this time last year and successfully won the battle. I purchased the Coloroado with a 350kg max ball weight and went out looking for a aluminium teepee with a towball weight well under that as didn't want to overwork the towbar as I don't like the sound of cracking metal. I have a aluminium teepee with 250kg tow ball weight and tow with ease.

wfdTamar, you say in you opening post that you have a car with a max tow ball weight of 100kg and looking at a van with 150kg tow ball weight. You answered your own question really as can you tow the said van. NO. Well not legally anyway and IMO far from safely.

That 80kg tare towball weight is for an EMPTY van, nothing added. I am yet to meet anyone that tow their van with nothing added. If you did, what do you eat? What do you dress in? and so on and so on.

I am not trying to be smart here at all, far from it, just trying to explain maybe a little differently.

I am one for towing legally and safely. I have done everything within my power to do so myself and am confident I am doing so. I mentioned in another thread that I HAVE been called to the side of the road and checked in detail and all good so yep, I am doing it right. The check was the real thing not a courtesy check.

I hope you sort your tug and van out and also do so legally and safely so you can enjoy the playground as I and many others do.

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

-- Edited by Dougwe on Sunday 6th of May 2018 07:40:43 PM

montie · Guru

If the dealer sells you this van and you have an accident with a towball weight which exceeds 100kg I'll bet you'll be the first one pointing the finger at the dealer for selling you an unsuitable van.!!

As other posters have pointed out you asked the question and got the correct answer.

wfdTamar · Veteran Member

A stunning demonstration of inability to comprehend English and address the question asked being displayed by almost all here.

From the bottom up:

montie - Did I suggest I'd go over 100 kg? It's a matter of correct van loading to achieve desired ball weight. BTW, manufacturers ball weight is 6.5% (at tare) to 10.5% (at max ATM).

Dougwe - wrong. The van Tare ball weight is the legal issue. 80 is legal. The 150 max put on the 100 kg limited car, of course illegal, but NOT on your car! Load the van to achieve recommended ball weight.

rockylizard - wrong. Caravan ATM is actually 1420. Payload 200kg. Ball weight can be 80-150kg (depending on the car).

PeterD - ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! Correct comprehension. Correct response.

TheHeaths - Not wrong, but stating the obvious. No salesperson knows how you'll load the van. Using that logic, no vans would be sold. My question was about legalities (fixed figures), not actualities (variable figures).

Kebbin - correct and restating what I said.

iana - another winner! Correct, almost completely - the van's max ball weight can't be exceeded. How they determine it and wether it's correct is another matter. I'm finding a lot of these weights can be varied by simply getting the van re-complied and a new plate stuck on with new weights!

Dickdownunder - correct, but not the answer to the question. Ta.

monte (first post) - Only wrong in small detail and assumption. ATM is 1420, not 1500. The 10% thing is for Australian vans, not European. I've seen European vans with lower limits at 4%. 10.5% is the maximum and not ideal (for that van). I think a lot of dealers (obviously you included) do not understand how European vans achieve stability - not through the brute force of weight, but by smart stability hitches.

missed a few. and so on...

So thanks for those who tried to answer my simple question. Thanks for the many who tried and failed to understand, or got it wrong. Good try, but I suggest a bit more careful listening (or reading in this case) and a bit less speaking (or writing) AT people. A discussion is better than a lecture.

I know this seems rude, but I found a lot of the responses that way. I felt like quoting John McEnroe:

www.youtube.com/watch

-- Edited by wfdTamar on Monday 7th of May 2018 09:24:07 AM

rockylizard · Guru

wfdTamar wrote:
A stunning demonstration of inability to comprehend English and address the question asked being displayed by almost all here.

From the bottom up:

montie - Did I suggest I'd go over 100 kg? It's a matter of correct van loading to achieve desired ball weight. BTW, manufacturers ball weight is 6.5% (at tare) to 10.5% (at max ATM).

Dougwe - wrong. The van Tare ball weight is the legal issue. 80 is legal. The 150 max put on the 100 kg limited car, of course illegal, but NOT on your car! Load the van to achieve recommended ball weight.

rockylizard - wrong. Caravan ATM is actually 1420. Payload 200kg. Ball weight can be 80-150kg (depending on the car). It is NOT depending on the car - that is the maximum TBW stipulated by the van manufacturer. Yes, it may just be that they are idiots and pander to the 'Strayan 10% rubbish' but then again it is quite probably what they feel is all their chassis/A-frame is capable of. Either way, it is illegal to load the towball beyond 150Kg IRRESPECTIVE of tow vehicle.
STRUTH - read your own pic of the compliance plate -
It states TARE = 1220, GTM = 1420, TARE TBW = 80, ATM - 1500.

You state the vehicle has a TBW limited to 100Kg - even if the vehicle braked towing capacity exceeds 1500Kg it would be extremely difficult to load this van to achieve a TBW of 100Kg or less. The dealer/salesman was correct - this van exceeds the legal towing ability of your vehicle.
PeterD may be theoretically correct - but it would be a cold day in hell that you could load this van to achieve a TBW lower than 7% to achieve the MANDATED 100Kg limitation of your vehicle ........... and that assumes the stated TARE on the compliance plated is indeed accurate and the ACTUAL TARE.
Cheers - John
PeterD - ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! Correct comprehension. Correct response.

TheHeaths - Not wrong, but stating the obvious. No salesperson knows how you'll load the van. Using that logic, no vans would be sold. My question was about legalities (fixed figures), not actualities (variable figures).

Kebbin - correct and restating what I said.

iana - another winner! Correct, almost completely - the van's max ball weight can't be exceeded. How they determine it and wether it's correct is another matter. I'm finding a lot of these weights can be varied by simply getting the van re-complied and a new plate stuck on with new weights!

Dickdownunder - correct, but not the answer to the question. Ta.

monte (first post) - Only wrong in small detail and assumption. ATM is 1420, not 1500. The 10% thing is for Australian vans, not European. I've seen European vans with lower limits at 4%. 10.5% is the maximum and not ideal (for that van). I think a lot of dealers (obviously you included) do not understand how European vans achieve stability - not through the brute force of weight, but by smart stability hitches.

missed a few. and so on...

So thanks for those who tried to answer my simple question. Thanks for the many who tried and failed to understand, or got it wrong. Good try, but I suggest a bit more careful listening (or reading in this case) and a bit less speaking (or writing) AT people. A discussion is better than a lecture.

I know this seems rude, but I found a lot of the responses that way. I felt like quoting John McEnroe:

www.youtube.com/watch