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Post Info TOPIC: Tow vehicles


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Tow vehicles


Hi Yobarr,

If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!

Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.

Cheers Bob



-- Edited by Bobdown on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 10:01:34 PM

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Bob and Jayne

Mt Barker WA



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Bobdown wrote:

Hi Yobarr,If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.Cheers Bob


Hi Bob... Thanks for these figures.Unfortunately,none of these cars can safely tow 3500kg as a pig trailer,with the exception of the 79,possibly  the Y62 Patrol (series 4 and early series 5) and maybe the Merc,which I have not yet researched.The rest have no show,with rear axle ratings as low as 1600kg.... behave! Once again,thanks for providing these  figures.Tomorrow I will PM you regarding these weights.Cheers



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Bobdown wrote:

Hi Yobarr,

If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!

Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.

 


 Hi Bobdown.

I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.



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yobarr wrote:
Bobdown wrote:

Hi Yobarr,If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.Cheers Bob


Hi Bob... Thanks for these figures.Unfortunately,none of these cars can safely tow 3500kg as a pig trailer,with the exception of the 79,possibly  the Y62 Patrol (series 4 and early series 5) and maybe the Merc,which I have not yet researched.The rest have no show,with rear axle ratings as low as 1600kg.... behave! Once again,thanks for providing these  figures.Tomorrow I will PM you regarding these weights.Cheers


 Yobarr, 

Twice I have tried to post the vehicle figures so everyone can see what the claimed rates are but it did not post.

What the forum would like to know is what is the actual rate these vehicles can tow, can you do this on a spreadsheet or something.

Cheers Bob



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Bob and Jayne

Mt Barker WA



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I have an old file that I got somewhere that I used when assessing which vehicle to purchase. It does not give rear axle load weights but maybe is a a start for someone.



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HandyWalter wrote:

I have an old file that I got somewhere that I used when assessing which vehicle to purchase. It does not give rear axle load weights but maybe is a a start for someone.


 Thanks Walter....as you say,it is a start,but even a quick glance revealed errors! The rear axle capacity is the single biggest issue,and without it,we're shooting in the dark.....I have the rear axle capacities of most cars,but simply printing them without explaining how things like towball weight, towball overhang or wheelbase affect them would cause more problems than it solved,so I believe that it is best to address each case separately. But,once again,thanks for posting this,as it will at least give novices something to work with.Cheers 

 

 

A83B7EF5-745A-4B5E-A943-8FD39731795E.png



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 7th of January 2021 06:27:03 PM

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Anyone know where I can get a towbar fitted to this vehicle please?bankoboev-ru_tank_tigr_germaniya.jpg



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This is the site I use - Vehicle buyers guide - sometimes it does not open at the correct page but at the beginning of the site. If that happens then go to page 165 for the first page of the listing. An interesting feature of the table is it gives the maximum van weight when the tug is loaded to GVM and also the maximum tug weight with maximum van size.



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I was surprised looking at the list that the Toyota 200 has a payload of only 610kg. 

A bullbar, roof platform, second spare wheel & other accessories bolted on & there goes a good chunk of your payload.



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Whenarewethere wrote:

I was surprised looking at the list that the Toyota 200 has a payload of only 610kg. 

A bullbar, roof platform, second spare wheel & other accessories bolted on & there goes a good chunk of your payload.


 Hi Jonathan....good comments.And it must be noted that this car tares at more than 2700kg,but has a lightweight 1950kg rear axle. Many people proudly tell us that they have spent big dollars,and had a "GVM upgrade",but they seem to fail to understand that this upgrade increases the rear axle capacity to only 2000kg.....a gain of a miserable 50kg.Why would you bother? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 12th of January 2021 08:50:01 PM

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PeterD wrote:

This is the site I use - Vehicle buyers guide - sometimes it does not open at the correct page but at the beginning of the site. If that happens then go to page 165 for the first page of the listing. An interesting feature of the table is it gives the maximum van weight when the tug is loaded to GVM and also the maximum tug weight with maximum van size.


 Thanks for this info Peter....I will have a look,and see what it says.However,I would be most surprised if any consideration is given to lightweight rear axle capacities,the biggest problem faced by many caravanners.Cheers

 

P.S Wow! I've just had a quick look,and I would strongly urge people who know little about weights to take the "information" supplied with a "grain of salt"..... one of the first vehicles I checked has a claimed towing capacity of 4500kg,a GVM of 3450kg and a GCM of 7237kg.It goes on to claim that maximum tow at GVM is 4500kg....simple maths shows that GVM (3450kg) plus maximum tow (4500kg) equals 7950kg....a huge 713kg OVER GCM.And all this on a car that has a rear axle capacity of only 1770kg.....not to mention that the rear axle weight at tare already is over 1000kg.! And don't forget that a 450kg towball weight puts WELL over 600kg...closer to 650kg...... onto that axle....still no fuel,no driver,no passengers etc.Perhaps these "guides" are a reason that few understand weights,and run around in overloaded,unsafe and uninsured cars.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 12th of January 2021 07:27:54 PM

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yobarr wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:

I was surprised looking at the list that the Toyota 200 has a payload of only 610kg. 

A bullbar, roof platform, second spare wheel & other accessories bolted on & there goes a good chunk of your payload.


 Hi Jonathan....good comments.And it must be noted that this car tares at more than 2700kg,but has a lightweight 1950kg rear axle. Many people proudly tell us that they have spend big dollars,and had a "GVM upgrade",but they seem to fail to understand that this upgrade increases the rear axle capacity to only 2000kg.....a gain of a miserable 50kg.Why would you bother? Cheers


 When we were setting up our car I didn't know how to attach a spare wheel & fuel tanks to the roof so got a roof platform.

We have since got rid of it with a net weight saving of 16kg.

Another reason we didn't add bullbar etc, as our car only has a 500kg payload. 

Simply increasing tyre size has added 6 x 3kg, not forgetting the 6th wheel itself!



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yobarr wrote:
 

P.S Wow! I've just had a quick look,and I would strongly urge people who know little about weights to take the "information" supplied with a "grain of salt"..... one of the first vehicles I checked has a claimed towing capacity of 4500kg,a GVM of 3450kg and a GCM of 7237kg.It goes on to claim that maximum tow at GVM is 4500kg....simple maths shows that GVM (3450kg) plus maximum tow (4500kg) equals 7950kg....a huge 713kg OVER GCM.And all this on a car that has a rear axle capacity of only 1770kg.....not to mention that the rear axle weight at tare already is over 1000kg.! And don't forget that a 450kg towball weight puts WELL over 600kg...closer to 650kg...... onto that axle....still no fuel,no driver,no passengers etc.Perhaps these "guides" are a reason that few understand weights,and run around in overloaded,unsafe and uninsured cars.Cheers





 Yobarr I think you will find that you are using have been butchered by that article, at least they quote the Kerb Weight not Tare, if the J2807 American Calculation was used that means full of Fuel, driver and passenger. In my reading of RAM 1500 in the US there is no mention of Axle weights or GVM. Or has RAM Australia invented the RAW and GVM to be compliant in Au



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Thanks for putting that link up, PeterD

Hopefully this link below will open at page 165

Edit to remove link, as it did not open at that page all the time



-- Edited by Tony Bev on Saturday 16th of January 2021 03:20:27 PM

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Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
 

P.S Wow! I've just had a quick look,and I would strongly urge people who know little about weights to take the "information" supplied with a "grain of salt"..... one of the first vehicles I checked has a claimed towing capacity of 4500kg,a GVM of 3450kg and a GCM of 7237kg.It goes on to claim that maximum tow at GVM is 4500kg....simple maths shows that GVM (3450kg) plus maximum tow (4500kg) equals 7950kg....a huge 713kg OVER GCM.And all this on a car that has a rear axle capacity of only 1770kg.....not to mention that the rear axle weight at tare already is over 1000kg.! And don't forget that a 450kg towball weight puts WELL over 600kg...closer to 650kg...... onto that axle....still no fuel,no driver,no passengers etc.Perhaps these "guides" are a reason that few understand weights,and run around in overloaded,unsafe and uninsured cars.Cheers





 Yobarr I think you will find that you are using have been butchered by that article, at least they quote the Kerb Weight not Tare, if the J2807 American Calculation was used that means full of Fuel, driver and passenger. In my reading of RAM 1500 in the US there is no mention of Axle weights or GVM. Or has RAM Australia invented the RAW and GVM to be compliant in Au


Hi Graham...I have in my possession written information from Ram,confirming my supplied figures.When I again wrote to them,with my calculations regarding tow limitations, it seems that I was ignored,as I am yet to receive a response more than 12 months later.Happy to supply GVM figures,axle weights,and GCM once I have recovered said correspondence.Towing capacity is 3000kg tops,as a PIG trailer.Cheers 



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Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:

Hi Yobarr,

If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!

Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.

 


 Hi Bobdown.

I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.


 

This is no longer the case with the current model Patrol, Series 5 has on limitations on vehicle GVM for towball mass. It is simply Tow capacity - 3500kg, GCM 7000Kg, Towball 350kg,  Max weight shown in each case.



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bomurra wrote:
Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:

Hi Yobarr,

If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!

Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet. 


 Hi Bobdown.

I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.


This is no longer the case with the current model Patrol, Series 5 has on limitations on vehicle GVM for towball mass. It is simply Tow capacity - 3500kg, GCM 7000Kg, Towball 350kg,  Max weight shown in each case.


 Hi Robert...Whilst you are absolutely right that the Series 5 does not have the limitations of the earlier models,are you aware that the maximum GCM you can safely reach,on paper,with a PIG trailer is 6650kg? In reality,it is almost impossible to reach GCM of much more than 6500kg,and that is only achievable with selective loading.However,with a wheelbase of 3076mm,the Y62 is a much more stable tow vehicle than is an LC200. However,like the LC200,the Y62 is hampered by the rear axle's carrying capacity of 2030kg.And NO,a WDH will not solve that problem.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 10th of February 2021 03:24:56 AM

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Yobarr with regard to your last statement re WDH not helping with weight on rear axle. Is this not what they were designed to do. That is reduce weight on rear axle and distribute this weight to front axle and caravan axle(s).

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr with regard to your last statement re WDH not helping with weight on rear axle. Is this not what they were designed to do. That is reduce weight on rear axle and distribute this weight to front axle and caravan axle(s).

Alan


 You are corect to a degree, but depending on the attitude of your combination when the van is attached, if you coupling and tow ball heights are correct and the van is connected if the van and tug remain on a fairly level attitude, then a WDH is not required, using one in this situation could be cause problems.

Remember using a WDH transfers weight from the rear axle to the front axle and some is transfered to van axle group if load shareing for non load sharing suspension it is transfered to the vans front axle.



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KJB


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Gundog wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr with regard to your last statement re WDH not helping with weight on rear axle. Is this not what they were designed to do. That is reduce weight on rear axle and distribute this weight to front axle and caravan axle(s).

Alan


 You are corect to a degree, but depending on the attitude of your combination when the van is attached, if you coupling and tow ball heights are correct and the van is connected if the van and tug remain on a fairly level attitude, then a WDH is not required, using one in this situation could be cause problems.

Remember using a WDH transfers weight from the rear axle to the front axle and some is transfered to van axle group if load shareing for non load sharing suspension it is transfered to the vans front axle.


 If the van is level  the load is shared by both axles whether it has a load sharing group or not.



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KB



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr with regard to your last statement re WDH not helping with weight on rear axle. Is this not what they were designed to do. That is reduce weight on rear axle and distribute this weight to front axle and caravan axle(s).

Alan


 Hi Alan...A WDH does indeed remove weight from the rear axle of the car,and puts around 70% of that weight back onto the front axle of the car,with the other 30% going onto the van's axle group.You now,no doubt,understand that towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned, so therefore the overall weight of the van has increased by the amount of the transferred weight.Since we are talking here about a van that already was at its ATM of 3500kg,the transferred weight makes it overloaded and illegal,not to mention uninsured.IF you want to use a WDH to take weight off the car's rear axle,and transfer some of that weight to the van's axle group,before the WDH is tensioned the van would need to be below its ATM rating. Cheers



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KJB wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr with regard to your last statement re WDH not helping with weight on rear axle. Is this not what they were designed to do. That is reduce weight on rear axle and distribute this weight to front axle and caravan axle(s).

Alan


 You are corect to a degree, but depending on the attitude of your combination when the van is attached, if you coupling and tow ball heights are correct and the van is connected if the van and tug remain on a fairly level attitude, then a WDH is not required, using one in this situation could be cause problems.

Remember using a WDH transfers weight from the rear axle to the front axle and some is transfered to van axle group if load shareing for non load sharing suspension it is transfered to the vans front axle.


 If the van is level  the load is shared by both axles whether it has a load sharing group or not.


 That is correct Kerry,as always the van should be level.However,if we get really technical,with a non load sharing suspension and a level van,there will be slightly more weight transferred to the van's rear axle because always the front axle on such suspension should have lower tyre pressure than the rear axle....maybe 3-5psi. However,the difference would be almost immeasurable.Cheers



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Again not correct because you doggedly maintain that tow ball load does not change. But the tow bar loading is reduced when a WDH is tensioned. The load between the ball and coupling actually increases, but overall tow bar load is reduced. Again we come back to arithmetic. Van TBW =increase in rear axle Wt minus decrease in front axle Wt plus increase in van axle Wt, and this is so whether the WDH in tensioned or not. As for the van laden mass increasing, that is just wrong. 

Alan



-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Thursday 11th of February 2021 10:14:29 AM

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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Again not correct because you doggedly maintain that tow ball load does not change. But the tow bar loading is reduced when a WDH is tensioned. The load between the ball and coupling actually increases, but overall tow bar load is reduced. Again we come back to arithmetic. Van TBW =increase in rear axle Wt minus decrease in front axle Wt plus increase in van axle Wt, and this is so whether the WDH in tensioned or not. As for the van GTM increasing that is just wrong. 

Alan


 Alan,surely you are not serious,again posting such rubbish? Could I respectfully refer you to a post titled "The effects of using a WDH",started by none other than YOU.....yes.you....at 9.03pm on May 6 2020 where you made similar claims.After the following pages of detailed explanation ,by other forum members,of why you were wrong,I would have hoped you'd have learned something.Apparently not.In simple words,when weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE by the use of a WDH,some of that weight is returned to the car's front axle,and some weight is tranferred to the van's axle group.GTM then is increased,obviously. In one line of your script you state ".....increase in van axle weight"  and in the next line you write "......as for the van GTM increasing that is just wrong".Perhaps you have not yet learned that GTM is "Gross trailed mass" which means "weight on van wheels". Towball weight does NOT change.Your "formula" above ...it most definitely is not "arithmetic"...... is an absolute nonsense,and shows that,despite detailed explanation by others,you still are well and truly lost in the WDH wilderness.But I sincerely hope that this helps you? Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 11th of February 2021 06:37:37 AM

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Ball weight does not change with the fitment of a WDH.
Weight is distributed to the tug front axle and the van wheels (GTM).
The percentage of weight distribution is determined by distance and force but an approximation is 25% to the van wheels.

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My question, in all seriousness, is this then.

What weight does the WDH transfer? Is it limited to the weight added to the rear axle by the tow ball weight of the van, or is it that, plus some of the non caravan rear axle load (ie that attributable to the vehicle only), or is it some proportion of the tow ball weight only?

I was just wondering, as I dont remember seeing anything that defines that (but I may just have missed that).

Thanks for some guidance.

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Hi All Just putting in my 2 cents worth. A vehicles GVM ( gross vehicle mass ) plus its towing capacity doesnt have to equal its GCM. (gross combined mass) You can sacrifice load in the towing vehicle to maintain your legal ability to tow at your maximum rated capacity. Now I expect to here howls of protest from some parties about towing with lighter vehicles than their trailer but I was just clearing up this one point.
My own ISUZU NLS AWD has a GVM of 4500 and a GCM of 8000 yet is rated to tow 4500kgs, not that I would feel comfortable to do that much further than around the corner slowly.
I would love to see a chart of axle loading capabilities if anyone has these as they are often hard to find. I also note that many quite capable towing vehicles are overlooked in the few charts that do exist whilst these vehicles are sold here in Australia and are regularly used for towing even if not often or even sometimes ever in some cases featuring in the 4x4 or caravan magazines lists of tow vehicles.

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I sorry Yobarr I used the term ATM instead of the correct Laden mass.

However the load applied to the tow vehicle has been reduced by the amount of weight transferred to the van axles.

The only connection of van to tow vehicle is via the towbar and a check of tow vehicle axle weights before and after clearly shows that this load is reduced when the WDH is tensioned by the same amount as the increase in van axle load.

Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted and do the arithmetic.

In that post of the 6th march I included a set of figures from Haymen Reece which shows exactly that but you refuse to accept this.

Alan



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TheHeaths wrote:

My question, in all seriousness, is this then.

What weight does the WDH transfer? Is it limited to the weight added to the rear axle by the tow ball weight of the van, or is it that, plus some of the non caravan rear axle load (ie that attributable to the vehicle only), or is it some proportion of the tow ball weight only?

I was just wondering, as I dont remember seeing anything that defines that (but I may just have missed that).

Thanks for some guidance.



 Hi Ian....A WDH removes weight from the rear axle,with the amount of weight removed being dependent on how hard you tension the hitch. Theoretically it would be possible to raise the rear wheels of the car off the ground,but it certainly is possible to remove more weight than the towball weight has added to that rear axle.Where that weight goes depends on many things,such as TBO,wheelbase of car,and forward length of the van,but around 70% goes to the car's front axle,with the other 30% going onto the van's axle group,obviously increasing both GTM and the total weight of the van.Just for fun,I decided to have a play with a WDH on my car,the result being that,of the 100kg removed from the car's rear axle,66kg was returned to the car's front axle,and 34kg went onto the van's axle group. Because a WDH does NOT alter towball weight,my car thus lost 34kg from its weight-on-wheels (GVM,if you like?) and my van weight-on-wheels (GTM) increased by 34kg,as did the total weight of the van. It needs to be noted that removing weight from the car's rear axle can result in an increased risk of oversteer,an undesirable condition in inexperienced hands.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 11th of February 2021 07:36:17 PM

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Brenda and Alan wrote:

I sorry Yobarr I used the term ATM instead of the correct Laden mass.

However the load applied to the tow vehicle has been reduced by the amount of weight transferred to the van axles.

The only connection of van to tow vehicle is via the towbar and a check of tow vehicle axle weights before and after clearly shows that this load is reduced when the WDH is tensioned by the same amount as the increase in van axle load.

Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted and do the arithmetic.

In that post of the 6th march I included a set of figures from Haymen Reece which shows exactly that but you refuse to accept this.

Alan


 Alan,this post again shows that you are well and truly lost in the WDH wilderness.However,at least you now seem to acknowledge that the van's GTM increased by the amount of weight transferred from the car's total weight-on-wheels,but you seem still not to understand that the remainder of the weight removed from the car's rear axle has been returned to the front axle of the car.....the weight-on-wheels has been DISTRIBUTED differently.For those not conversant with Alan's initial post on May 6th,in an effort to make things look OK,towball weight in provided figures was conveniently listed as zero....an absolute nonsense.And we wonder why so many people do not understand weight.Spare me! Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 11th of February 2021 09:59:15 PM

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