Power Point I thought was dead.

Gundog · Guru

Power Point I thought was dead.

Whenarewethere · Guru

It's all very well Plug & Play", but cables still need to run safely behind walls.

Even simply from the issue of styrene insulation & PVC cable. Plasticisers migrate out due to being in contact with styrene creating a fire hazard.

Mike Harding · Guru

And this is a consequence of over regulation - people devise clever schemes to get around the regulations.

Many (most?) other countries in the world permit individuals to do their own 240V single phase wiring and their streets are not littered with charred bodies.

Such regulations in Australian are simply job protection by a powerful trade union.

If you do change the socket keep in mind that, with good reason, its switch should be a double pole type and you probably won't find them in Bunnings - even the electrical wholesalers may have to order them in?

kgarnett · Senior Member

My local Bunnings stock four outlet, double pole switching power points (aisle46)

https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-four-outlet-power-point-with-3-4a-usb-charger_p0027285

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

kgarnett wrote:
My local Bunnings stock four outlet, double pole switching power points (aisle46)
https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-four-outlet-power-point-with-3-4a-usb-charger_p0027285

All 240V switches in caravans shall be double pole switching. That one is not, so it is illegal, but the qualified electrician who is required to wire it should know that.

I understand that any wiring inside a wall is fixed wiring and must be installed by a licensed electrician.

Cheers,

Peter

Tony Bev · Guru

I have the same CMS plug and play type power points, in my 2006 Jayco Conquest Motorhome

I had seen them on sale, at a caravan parts reseller, who are no longer in my town

Therefore they must be readily available, from the caravan places, and on sale to the general public

oldbloke · Guru

Well, I'm puzzled. I thought ALL power points were double pole. Learn something everyday.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Well, I'm puzzled. I thought ALL power points were double pole. Learn something everyday.

Not required in houses, so usually not.

Cheers,

Peter

kgarnett · Senior Member

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
kgarnett wrote:
My local Bunnings stock four outlet, double pole switching power points (aisle46)
https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-four-outlet-power-point-with-3-4a-usb-charger_p0027285
All 240V switches in caravans shall be double pole switching. That one is not, so it is illegal, but the qualified electrician who is required to wire it should know that.
I understand that any wiring inside a wall is fixed wiring and must be installed by a licensed electrician.
Cheers,
Peter

The description of the Bunnings power point I suggested above states that it is double pole switching

"Rated at 250V 10A a.c. 50Hz, four outlet power point with extra safety double pole switches individually switch on-off each socket.
All integrated USB charger, no extra wiring required, USB rated at 3.4A
Tested and complied to Australia and New Zealand Safety Standard."

Ken

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

kgarnett wrote:
The description of the Bunnings power point I suggested above states that it is double pole switching
"Rated at 250V 10A a.c. 50Hz, four outlet power point with extra safety double pole switches individually switch on-off each socket.
All integrated USB charger, no extra wiring required, USB rated at 3.4A
Tested and complied to Australia and New Zealand Safety Standard."
Ken

You are indeed correct Ken. My sincere apologies.

Cheers,

Peter

oldbloke · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Well, I'm puzzled. I thought ALL power points were double pole. Learn something everyday.
Not required in houses, so usually not.
Cheers,
Peter

Sooo, how do you tell? They all look the same.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

There is no way to tell from the front. I expect the switch looks different from the back.
Cheers,
Peter

pinballpat · Veteran Member

This i find a very interesting post...i wonder if anyone has thought of any disadvantages from the regulation of having a double pole switched power points in a modern caravan wiring system ..?? i look with interest for posts which have analyised all possible senarios..

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

The only disadvantage is a slightly higher cost.
The advantage is improved safety from the breaking of both active and neutral lines instead of active alone. Without that feature, one line can still be live (even when the switch is OFF) if the active and neutral lines are crossed either in the van or in the feed-in cables.
Cheers,
Peter

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

House power points have the neutral connected to earth, in a van using a generator or inverter there is no earth, both active and neutral can kill you.

PeterD · Guru

pinballpat wrote:
This i find a very interesting post...i wonder if anyone has thought of any disadvantages from the regulation of having a double pole switched power points in a modern caravan wiring system ..?

Modern vans are still able to be connected to older wiring that was installed before the regulations specified which pin on an outlet must be connected to the active. There are still some older parks that were not wired under the newer regs. There is no compulsion for installations to be upgraded when the regs change.

The Travelling Dillberries · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
There is no way to tell from the front. I expect the switch looks different from the back.
Cheers,
Peter

They are marked Double Pole on the back.

bobsa · Senior Member

The reason double pole is on caravans is so the average joe blow that fixes his extension lead
and gets the active and neutral ass about the power point on a double switched will switch both active and neutral
no other fancy reasoning
bob

Whenarewethere · Guru

Or buys an extension lead wrongly wired!

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recall/legrand-australia-hpm-assorted-extension-leads

'The wires have been accidentally transposed during manufacture, meaning the pins on the plug may not be wired to the correct aperature on the socket.'

Mamil · Senior Member

As it seems some people weren't aware that GPO switches in caravans had to be double pole, perhaps it's also worth pointing out that it's not just GPOs but all AC switches, circuit breakers, and RCDs that have to be double pole. So, for example if some of your AC appliances are hard wired into a switch instead of being plugged into a GPO, like the water heater and aircon in my caravan, then these switches also have to be double pole ones. And, like GPOs, normal 'household' switches, circuit breakers, and RCDs are not double pole, so are not suitable for use in a caravan.

AS/NZS 3001 Electrical installations - Transportable structures and vehicles including their site supplies:-

Clause 3.3.1.2. The overcurrent circuit-breaker required by Clause 3.3.1.1 shall operate in all live (active and neutral) conductors.

Clause 3.3.2 (b) RCDs may be separate from or integral with the circuit-breakers required by clause 3.3.1 but shall operate in all live (active and neutral) conductors of the circuit...

Clause 3.6.2. All switches that are installed in transportable structures and intended to be connected to the site supply shall operate in all live (active and neutral) conductors.

-- Edited by Mamil on Saturday 16th of January 2021 09:04:16 PM

pinballpat · Veteran Member

"The only disadvantage is a slightly higher cost." Hmm

"House power points have the neutral connected to earth, in a van using a generator or inverter there is no earth, both active and neutral can kill you." Hmm

"Modern vans are still able to be connected to older wiring that was installed before the regulations specified which pin on an outlet must be connected to the active. There are still some older parks that were not wired under the newer regs. There is no compulsion for installations to be upgraded when the regs change." Hmm

"The reason double pole is on caravans is so the average joe blow that fixes his extension lead

and gets the active and neutral ass about the power point on a double switched will switch both active and neutral no other fancy reasoning" Hmmm

"So, for example if some of your AC appliances are hard wired into a switch instead of being plugged into a GPO"

"Not all circuit breakers, and RCDs are not double pole, so are not suitable for use in a caravan." Hmmm

These days with modern caravans having things like double insulated appliances 2 pin devices...240 volt invertor systems which have a path from the dc side to the 240 path ...rcd's yes double pole switched at drop out... single pole circuit breakers..hard wired appliances not all have double pole switching...so putting this mix together with a caravan pulling into an old caravan park which has no obligation to conform to newer regs...so a senario of a faulty 3 pin appliance plugged into a power point and power point not switched on ... on a single pole switched power point still allow the neutral connect of the device to be connected ...the Rcd in the van would still monitor leakage current weather a single or double pole rcd...with a double pole switch power point you would not have the advantage of the neutral line feeding an appliance from a power point which was switched off..My question is...can anybody see a situation where with the mixture of 2 pin devices 3 pin devices and hard wired devices... a double pole switched power point not allowing the neutral line to be connected to a faulty appliance would be a disadvantage toward safety ?? Time for the gurus to get thinking cap on..

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

If your power is coming from an inverter or from a generator, your RCD is useless.
Cheers,
Peter

DonVicki · Member

Hi Gundog
if you have a look at caravan plus website and put cms into search
a page of all sorts of cms plugs and cables are available for plug and play use
they have a double pole / double plug that may suit your needs $43.00
might be worth a look

PeterD · Guru

Don, gundog knows where to get plenty of those double power points. He is after a quad one. Do you know where he will get one of those?

DonVicki · Member

Peter, can't say i have ever seen one ,but
maybe put two doubles in next to each other
would not be to difficult, (maybe)
cms cables have a lot of different lengths

Gundog · Guru

DonVicki wrote:
Peter, can't say i have ever seen one ,but
maybe put two doubles in next to each other
would not be to difficult, (maybe)
cms cables have a lot of different lengths

Thanks for the idea all I would need is one of the 500mm pre made cables