Hi Doug, I have read that lithium Ion Batteries, ( Not Lithium Ion Phosphate) do not like to be on constant charge, (could be reason for our ebike Lithium Ion battery failing it was on constant charge when not in use, a Canberra ebike seller told be only charge up Li's B4 use or words to that affect. Could also be the reason for my Laptop battery, will not run the LT for any length of time, should have only charged it up during use.

Am not a Lithium expert only what I have read and my experience.

Of course in a vehicle the Battery is not under constant charge unless you have solar on the roof ah our Landcruiser aux non Li battery.

Peter

Hi Doug, just a bit of info re lithium. We have a 200ah and we get around the constant charging whilst inot in use, by leaving one led down light on all the time when in storage. Seems to do the trick.

Regards Phil.

been a few comment that this battery may have some limitations , i hope someone with some knowledge will investigate an post as one of these may suit me but it seem a bit on the cheap side which is always a worry but cheep is good, if it is suitable. need new battery for ute canopy to run fridge charged from solar on roof of canopy

PeterInSa wrote:

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Hi Doug, I have read that lithium Ion Batteries, ( Not Lithium Ion Phosphate) do not like to be on constant charge..

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Hi Peter,

A lot of people get mixed up with the Lithium battery names, so here's a bit of a primer.

Lithium Ion batteries are a family of batteries which all work on the common principle of the transfer of lithium ions between an anode, usually made of graphite, through an electrolyte made of lithium salts, to a cathode. This distinguishes them from the other common family of batteries which is lead acid, comprised of wet flooded, gel, AGM, and calcium.

Within the Lithium-ion family it is the different chemistries of the cathode that gives the different types of Lithium-ion battery their distinct characteristics in terms of energy density, voltage, and thermal volatility, and also gives them their individual names. Examples are lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) and of course lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). It is this last one that is most commonly used in leisure and camping applications as it is one of the safest Lithium-ion chemistries because of its relatively high thermal runaway threshold of 270DegC, the trade-off being a lower energy density than the other Lithium-ion chemistries. This is why Teslas originally used lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) for their high energy density, but because of their propensity to catch fire are now switching to LiFePo4's which are larger and heavier for the same energy capacity, but also cheaper and safer.

So, surprisingly the Aldi ad has it right for once, the battery is both Lithium-ion and Lithium Iron Phosphate!

landy wrote:

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Mamil wrote:

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PeterInSa wrote:

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Hi Doug, I have read that lithium Ion Batteries, ( Not Lithium Ion Phosphate) do not like to be on constant charge..

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Hi Peter,

A lot of people get mixed up with the Lithium battery names, so here's a bit of a primer.

Lithium Ion batteries are a family of batteries which all work on the common principle of the transfer of lithium ions between an anode, usually made of graphite, through an electrolyte made of lithium salts, to a cathode. This distinguishes them from the other common family of batteries which is lead acid, comprised of wet flooded, gel, AGM, and calcium.

Within the Lithium-ion family it is the different chemistries of the cathode that gives the different types of Lithium-ion battery their distinct characteristics in terms of energy density, voltage, and thermal volatility, and also gives them their individual names. Examples are lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) and of course lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). It is this last one that is most commonly used in leisure and camping applications as it is one of the safest Lithium-ion chemistries because of its relatively high thermal runaway threshold of 270DegC, the trade-off being a lower energy density than the other Lithium-ion chemistries. This is why Teslas originally used lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) for their high energy density, but because of their propensity to catch fire are now switching to LiFePo4's which are larger and heavier for the same energy capacity, but also cheaper and safer.

So, surprisingly the Aldi ad has it right for once, the battery is both Lithium-ion and Lithium Iron Phosphate!

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Watching with interest

1/ can they be charged off a normal lead acid charging system ?

2/ can they be used as a cranking battery ?

3/ can they be mixed with lead acid batteries ?

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1. Yes if it can be set to the right charge voltages, and de-sulphation can be switched off. But a Lithium specific charger, or one with a Lithium profile is better and faster, and will make your Lithium last longer. After you've shelled out a couple of thousand for a top of the range battery, shouldn't you give it an optimum charging regime? 

2. Not ideal as the a Lithium has a BMS inside and the sudden large current draw of a starter motor can send it into shutdown to protect the cells. Also, Lithium don't like constant float charge and particularly being held at 100% charge at elevated temperatures - it damages the cells, which is exactly what happens under the bonnet. These are all surmountable, but it needs to be a specially designed Lithium-ion for under bonnet use, and these are even more expensive, so personally I wouldn't bother as there's no real advantages, and quite a few disadvantages!

3. No, as they have a very different charging and discharging characteristics - it would quickly kill both batteries. Only connect them through a DC/DC charger. As an aside, many cheaper Lithium-ion won't even play nice with another Lithium-ion, so if you want to parallel or series them choose ones that specifically say they can do this.

Thanks everyone for the great replies. Every bit of information will be taken on board and I'm sure a good outcome will take place.

Mamil, thankyou too for that info as it answered, well, 3 questions I also had in mind.





Keep Safe out there everyone.

Just don't tell those who successfully do these things. :)
There are more than a few motorhomes using Li batteries for cranking, in fact using the house batteries is a legitimate choice and having no seperate crank battery.
I am still to decide what to do in my new OKA build. I may use a specialist LI crank battery (60Ah, 8.5kg) due to the house batteries being about 5m away at the back.
And it is also possible to mix LA and Li provided the choice of charge voltage is a compromise. 14.3 or 14.4 (which is the usual output of an alternator) is fine. In use, each will do what it does best and they can self ballance.
Cheers,
Peter

Our 300Ah LiFePO4 battery has started our 3.9l TD engine perhaps 5000 times over the last 8 years of fulltime travel.

No internal BMS to upset things.   

 

That is a problem with the BMS, not the battery.
Cheers,
Peter

According to the Voltx website voltx.com.au/collections/lead-acid-replacement

Scroll down the page to the battery and then click on the spec sheet link

The 100ah litthium battery CAN be connected either in series or parrallel.

Im currently running 1 on these batteries in my camper trailer for the last 3 months or so without any problems

I think that the manufacturer of the batteries would be in a better position to decide if they can be connected in series or parrallel or not, rather than the retailer .


Update.   Ive sent an email to Voltx asking for clarification and will post the reply . if I get one

-- Edited by TravellerBob on Sunday 3rd of April 2022 07:57:43 AM

dorian wrote:

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I can't match the specs in the ad against a particular battery in the following list:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0611/9505/9382/files/VOLTX-GeneralSeries.pdf

Also, the model numbers don't display, so I'm wondering if it's due to a Chinese font.

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Outbax sell the VoltX range of batteries.

The 100ah battery for $469.00 is stated as NOT suitable for series or parallel connection.

There are several 100ah batteries in the VoltX range.

A phone call or online chat on their site should identify each 100ah model # and confirm connection specs.

 

dorian wrote:

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Outbax would be the last people I would ask for information about the stuff that they sell.

https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t66202769/stay-away-from-outbax-camping-solar-panels/

 

Edit:

You can buy it directly from the manufacturer (?) for the same price, with free shipping:

https://voltx.com.au/collections/12v/products/voltx-12v-100ah-basic

Product Manual:

https://d1hcq2qixeq4j1.cloudfront.net/cx/2022/03/28/1648427117-Voltx%2012V%20100%20Basic.pdf

-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 3rd of April 2022 12:40:07 PM

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The Voltx site lists the 12v 100ah Basic battery specs as not suitable for series or parallel connection.

I will assume the OP is referring to the Basic model.

 

VoltX 12V 100Ah Basic | VoltX Batteries

 

-- Edited by Dick0 on Sunday 3rd of April 2022 12:50:49 PM

A decision in the negative was made, Dick0.