Changing to Lithium

Brodie Allen · Guru

Changing to Lithium

Possum3 · Guru

I considered Lithium earlier this year when I Changed batteries in my van, mainly weight consideration.

I replaced aging batteries with AGM Deep Cycle from Aussie Solar because;
1. Cost
2. Suitable for existing loom, charger, etc.
3. Safety - risk of fire with Lithium.
4. Existing AGM Batteries were already factored into tare weight.

Gundog · Guru

5 or 6 years ago I considered changing to lithium, but could not justify the cost.

Considering my AGM lasted 6 years didnt hesitate to stay with AGM.

Understanding the limitations of Setec system is limited to 100ah for peak performance charging, If you want to run a bigger battery then you need to have sufficient solar to negate the need of the Setec for charging, regelate it to being the distributor for the 12v network within the van.

Brodie Allen · Guru

Gundog I dont think that they are so expensive now, but I need more latitude than I can get with
two 100AH AGM each night, and if there's dirty weather about the genny becomes a must.

I keep my usage down to 25% discharge, which is not comfortably enough.

And I keep reading about drop-ins which would be wonderful, but I don't like being a pioneer.

Frankly I can't see how the un-modified standard system has the oomph and voltage for the
lithium to work from, apart from the "special algorithms" they maintain are necessary.

And every purveyor has a different story to tell.

Brodie

Brodie Allen · Guru

Here's how I would like to go.

Awaiting reply from iTechworld.

itechworld.com.au/products/120ah-12-volt-lithium-battery-itech120x-water-proof-ip67-380a-max-discharge

Brodie

Maybe others would be interested also.
Will post my reply when received.

Possum3 · Guru

Link to my choice www.aussiebatteries.com.au/batteries/deep-cycle-agm/140ahx-12v-agm-deep-cycle-battery

Gundog · Guru

I saw a few minutes ago kogan has 2x 100ah lithium batteries for $569 free delivery

https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/toughland-voltx-12v-100ah-lithium-battery-lifepo4-cells-deep-cycle-solar-charger-caravan-camping-maintenance-free-and-no-leak-fast-chargedischarge-li-12v-g-a0-x/

Brodie Allen · Guru

Gundog wrote:
I saw a few minutes ago kogan has 2x 100ah lithium batteries for $569 free delivery
https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/toughland-voltx-12v-100ah-lithium-battery-lifepo4-cells-deep-cycle-solar-charger-caravan-camping-maintenance-free-and-no-leak-fast-chargedischarge-li-12v-g-a0-x/

According to some Agents that either cant or don't want to sell drop-ins theres all the infrastructure

that has to be upgraded. Even some dropins need changes to some items. All very contentious and a

potential can of worms.

Brodie

TimTim · Senior Member

Possum3 eliminate No.3 from your list.

Lithium-Ion batteries are a fire risk as can be seen in many cases but LiFePO4 are not. That is one reason I do not use the term lithium batteries because there are so many chemistries.

The fires you have heard about in EVs, electric scooters and phones etc such as the Samsung Note, are all Lithium-Ion batteries. LiFePO4 or Lithium Iron Phosphate do not have the same instability.

Aussie Batteries have been good for me in terms of AGMs. smile

-- Edited by TimTim on Monday 24th of October 2022 05:57:33 PM

Dick0 · Guru

Brodie Allen wrote:
There must be many GN thinking of changing to lithium instead of new AGM batteries
when the current crop blow out.

Who has made the change in a Jayco with the Setec charger/console ?
Are "drop-ins" a viable proposition long term
Or did you have to change everything?

Bloody confusing 'specially now that some lithiums come with their own
integrated management systems.

Buggered Brodie

Don't you have solar or do you only charge the batteries with the Setec 240V charger?

I only ask because there is more involved with LiFePO4 batteries when it comes to solar and 240V charging.

-- Edited by Dick0 on Monday 24th of October 2022 05:14:24 PM

TimTim · Senior Member

Brodie,

It depends on the make and model of your components in your system as to what needs to be upgraded. I have no idea about the Setec but it may be a case of as Gundog said and just use it as the 12v controller. If you have a a 240v GPO close to your batteries then you can permanently wire a 240v charger for when you are connected to shore power. The other main component is the solar regulator and for some the DC/DC charger. Whilst many may buy top end components there are plenty of cheaper products that will provide the same outcome.

When I purchased my caravan I was quoted $3,200 to upgrade the 2 x 100Ah AGMs to 1 x 100Ah LiFePO4, and that quote included components that were not necessary as my van being built included a Redarc Manager 30. Needless to say I didnt even bother going back to the caravan manufacturer and instead I built my own batteries.

Do not get concerned about the battery management system (BMS). Whereas I have control of mine and can change the settings, with drop ins you are unable to do that. With those that have Bluetooth you can monitor the cells but that is all you can do. The one critical thing is if you are planning on running an inverter as the batteries will have a maximum discharge current and you have to take that into consideration when purchasing drop ins.

Tim

Dick0 · Guru

This may help.

All you need to know about Lithium Drop-In Batteries | SolarKing Australia - YouTube

FAQ: What does drop in replacement actually mean? l Battle Born Batteries - YouTube

JonP · Member

Ive fitted two of our 4x4's with DCS lithium batteries and also my sons camper van, the best thing Ive ever done in regards to power. These batteries are also cranking batteries and used in many government vehicles including QLD ambulance service. They have a built in bms, bluetooth and some have solar regulators built in too. I wouldn't hesitate to use these again having had so many issues over the years with deep cycle agm up north in the heat.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Recently fitted 3 / 135AH Lithiums ( $678each ) when up in Queensland about 3 months ago . Bought 40amp (240) charger . The BMS took control till I purchased a lithium regulator . They dont like trickle charge etc ..Its never looked back since !!

Nifty150 · Veteran Member

A couple of years ago I bought an Enerdrive 200 Btec lithium battery, Enerdrive DCDC charger, and a cheap 2200 watt inverter. I already had a 120 w solar panel. Cost was about $3000, and usable capacity per kg of weight is almost 4 times better ( we get twice the power from half the weight). We never hook up to 240v and dont even have a 240v charger. That setup runs a pop up toaster, hairdryer, induction cooktop, 65 litre compressor frig-freezer and electric jug. I realise now we should have bitten the bullet earlier - that way we would have been looking at more years of value from the system. We do tend to drive every few days and the battery will recharge from almost empty to full, at 50amps, in 5 or 6 hours. We could have done it with cheaper components I guess but this has been a reliable and foolproof upgrade and should see us to the end of our travelling days.

RickJ · Senior Member

There was a guy on another caravan forum that had a JAYCO and he set up a lithium system by leaving all the OEM equipment except the batteries in the van and cleverly fitted the components to use lithium but it was easily converted back to standard should the need arise.
I think his name was Baz or Barry or similar should you want to look him up.

Cuppa · Guru

We are yet to switch to Lithiums. At the time I fitted out our vehicle with AGM's 11 years ago I thought that when the time came to replace them Lithiums would be the go.

When our AGM's finally reached the practical end of their life at 9 years & 10 months it was a dilemma. We were far from home & setting up for lithium involved not just changing batteries, but also charging components & all the work involved in re-wiring in limited space. We put it into the 'too hard basket'.

Also the only reason Lithiums were desirable (for us) was to reduce weight. We had managed perfectly well with AGM's for our use. 100% self sufficient for power indefinitely. No high current draws, & a system we could return to float daily, with sufficient capacity to keep SoC generally at 70% +.

So we replaced the old AGM's with new AGM's of the same brand (Ritar) & continue to treat them the same.

If we change our mode of travel it will be to have a little more indoor space in a larger vehicle. In those circumstances there is every possibility we may be in a position to enjoy 'high current living'. Perhaps going gas free with an induction stove for example. Then the high current/faster recharging batteries may be of benefit. There will be no hairdryer though!

I am still not a fan of 'drop in replacement lithiums. I may come around to changing my mind on them if/when when it becomes commonplace to hear of folk getting 10 year+ lifespan from them, but I have doubts that that will happen. Custom battery packs with external BMS are a different kettle of fish.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Was up in Far North Queensland a few months ago . My AGMS where dying . Nearly flat by the morning . So I bought 3 Lithium ( edited )Fusion . Was recently a camping show on . Got 3 for price of two . About $1600 .. I replaced them with the two oldest batteries hopping it was them ? Was totally surprised in the weight difference !! I run them with AGM regulator till I got home . They said it would be fine !! I still have another 200ah AGM fitting up between chassis rails about 3 years old . Its connected to motor batteries ( Mo Home) via VSR . Theres another VSR between the house and motor batteries also .. so I guess I have about 600AH when fully charged ? When I got home I purchased and fitted 60am lithium regulator and 60 amp / 240V charger. Cannot remember brand names ? Just purchased what battery place recommended . Strangely enough no brand names ? All works fine . 4 months with fridge on and running Sat TV it holding fine . 400 watt solar on roof . Yes mixed brand panels too ! Aha Seems to match the batteries !!

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Saturday 17th of December 2022 11:34:02 AM

Tony Bev · Guru

Brodie Allen wrote:
There must be many GN thinking of changing to lithium instead of new AGM batteries
when the current crop blow out.

Who has made the change in a Jayco with the Setec charger/console ?
Are "drop-ins" a viable proposition long term
Or did you have to change everything?

Bloody confusing 'specially now that some lithiums come with their own
integrated management systems.

Buggered Brodie

Hi Brodie

As I am not a terchi, I can only talk in layman speak

I have the Setec system in my 2006 Jayco Conquest

I found that it was hopeless to charge my (at that time) a 100 AH Fullriver GEL battery

I left the Setec system in place as it controlled all the 12 volt stuff from the battery, and from 240 volt

BUT I did remove the wire from the alternator to the setec, and isolated it

I then fitted 2 Bosh AGM deep cycle batteries, plus a 20 Amp Cetek DC/DC charger, which charged the batteries from both alternator and solar, plus 300 watt roof & 160 watt portable solar

After 5 years I found one battery had just about died, so I went to lithium

I now have 2 X 100 AH EVPower lithium batteries, which are controlled by an external BMS (Battery Management System), which I purchased with the batteries

I fitted another 200 watt roof solar, plus a 50 Amp Renogy DC/DC charger

I have only had this system for 1 year, but it does the job so far

In my opinion, I think that it is best to follow the directions of the battery manufacturer, I would be concerned if something was trickle charging my lithium batteries

In summary

I did leave the Jayco Conquest Setec in place, but removed the wire from the alternator to the Setec, plus fitted a circuit breaker between the Setec and the lithium batteries
As I do not wish to have the 240 volt, go through the Setec, to try and trickle charge the lithium batteries
If/when I go to caravan parks, I can let the 240 volt go through the Setec, and carry on to the 12 volt stuff, and isolate the lithium batteries
When I am not using the motorhome, (for months at a time), I can completely isolate the lithium batteries
Basically the extras I fitted, was a lithium profile DC/DC charger, plus circuit breakers to isolate everything
It sounds daunting until you look at other peoples setups, which gives an idea, of what is required

Hope that this info is useful to you

Hitting the road · Senior Member

I have decided to upgrade to Lithium in the next month or so before heading off for the big lap in May. I currently have 2 x 140 amp AGM's in place that replaced the pitiful 1 x 100 amp AGM that came with the van.

Being we plan to spend a fair bit of time off grid I just don't feel comfortable with only maybe 120 amps of usable power available between Park stops or solar input...being I'd have to spend a full day anywhere with panels out and decent sunlight to get power back in to the batteries.

I have already added an external Anderson plug wired to a 40 amp MPPT Lithium compatible regulator that I can plug in to the battery pack utilising 2 x 200 watt portable solar panels to accommodate. The van did come with a 120 watt panel on the roof as standard...not much chop really.

My plan is to buy 2 x Aussie Batteries 175 amp Lithiums to replace the AGM's. Being my van has a BMPRO BMS that is not Lithium compatible I will purchase a Victron or similar 30 - 35 amp Lithium compatible charger to hard wire in.
The BMPRO will be unplugged from 240 volt input so as not to operate at all with battery charging, replaced by the new charger.
(What I'll likely do too is run a cable to the front of the van with an Anderson plug fused to the van's battery pack, to plug in to the DCDC Charger already in the tug that is Lithium compatable, for back up while on the road if needed.)

The existing BMPRO BMS will still manage the battery pack as such and distribute the van's power needs. The fridge is 3 way so only needs gas not 12v when parked.

I have already fitted a shunt to the current battery pack to give me Bluetooth readings as to what goes in and out of the batteries.

The 30 odd kgs I save will be taken up by my portable gen set for those off grid out of the way stays where I might need air conditioning, or to put charge back in to the batteries if the weather is unfriendly away from any Park power.

The overall cost will be under $2k, plus I should be able to sell the 2 x 140 amp AGM's as they are both under 2 years old and in good nick....

Whenarewethere · Guru

Hitting the road wrote:

(What I'll likely do too is run a cable to the front of the van with an Anderson plug fused to the van's battery pack, to plug in to the DCDC Charger already in the tug that is Lithium compatable, for back up while on the road if needed.)

The DC-DC charger should be near the batteries you are charging. The point is to up the voltage on a long wiring run. Having a long run after the DC-DC charger defeats the purpose.

Mike Harding · Guru

Hitting the road wrote:
I have decided to upgrade to Lithium in the next month or so before heading off for the big lap in May. I currently have 2 x 140 amp AGM's in place

I suggest you don't need to change to lithium.

You are not running a 240V fridge which is a significant power user but rather a gas fridge. You have 280Ah of AGM of which probably 240Ah is useable - running an AGM below 50% is not instant death but if you do it very often you'll shorten battery life, that's all.

I'm guessing all you'll be running is the standard caravan equipment (lights, TV, fan, radio?) and also charging phones/computers etc and maybe a few other low power items? Your existing AGMs will cope with that no issue.

I've been running my setup in the bush for the past 12 months with 800W panels and 210Ah of AGM *including* a 240V fridge/freezer and it is only when I get two consecutive days of cloud I have to use the gen. to top up the batteries.

If you do go for the lithiums I recommend the Victron 100V/30A MPPT controller.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
I'm guessing all you'll be running is the standard caravan equipment (lights, TV, fan, radio?) and also charging phones/computers etc and maybe a few other low power items? Your existing AGMs will cope with that no issue.

Maybe it's the heated bathroom floor & toilet seat!

Hitting the road · Senior Member

Cheers Mike...I hear you. My reasoning is; I did have a situation not long ago where I had the BMPRO BMS shut down the power supply due to low voltage. Not real convenient as it was about 7pm and still needed power to run the water pump for showers as well as some lights.

Given the BMS shuts the power off when it senses the batteries at 11.8v I think, this can easily happen if there is a sudden draw on the batteries for some reason sensed by the BMS and it shuts power down to "protect' the battery.

Totally my fault in this case, camping at an off grid site later in the day after picking the van up, I didn't put the panels out and used lights, water pump, radio and TV, couple of phones charging etc that night...also left the gas water heater on. (It actually uses a small amount of 12v power constantly...likely to keep the gas solenoid open while lit, I wasn't aware of that at the time.) Next day didn't put the panels out as the weather was crappy and overcast, thinking I'll be fine without. So then after 40 odd hours off grid, bingo, no power, shut down by the BMS. After isolating the batteries for half an hour or so they recovered enough to run the water pump and some lights.

Panels went out next day and all was good...I am also a lot more savvy now with power usage!

It was a wake up call really...certainly got a far better grip on the electrical setup in the van. The issue that time sheets back to keeping my van in storage as I have no room at home to keep it. It had sat for maybe 8 weeks without any 240v power on to charge the batteries, so hit the road with maybe 70% battery level I reckon, (showed 12.6v on the panel), I likely had in reality probably less than 80 amps usable before the BMS stepped in...batteries did not charge while traveling. (it lives in a huge shed with other vans and boats so no solar input either.)

Now when I pick the van up I really need to book in to a Park for a couple of days straight up to top the batteries up or potentially run in to the same problem again. This is why I am opting to go Lithium...(and will eventually fit an Inverter), putting in 350 amps will give me over double what I have now in usable capacity available...and given the travel I am going to do I could easily be off grid for a few days at a time...that coupled with the now unreliable electricity supplies in this country there is never a guarantee where you stop will have 240v power available. As you note dropping the batteries below 50% occasionally won't kill them, but the BMS isn't programmable as far as I can see to alter the shut down voltage. I could get rid of the existing BMS but that means fitting a new power distribution set up as well...getting beyond what I wish to do.

Thanks mate for the tip on the charger as well...much appreciated.

Mike Harding · Guru

Something smells fishy here.

No one would (should!) design a BMS for lead acid to cut off at 11V8 the battery will still have somewhere around 40% of capacity left.

I took a look the BMPRO website and the manuals of their two main BMS'; one cuts out at 10V8 and the other at 10V5 which is much more sensible however when in lithium mode (only one could do lithium) the cut out voltage is 12V0 +/- 0V2 which makes me wonder if yours is set to lithium mode although I note you said it could not do it.

Which model is your BMS?

Hitting the road · Senior Member

Yes...it is 10.8v shut down, at 10.5 it will go in to "storage" mode waiting for some power input to recharge. sorry for the error...I was thinking 10.8v then typed 11.8v. BMPRO J35B is the one I have fitted.
Shows how low my battery level really was at that time.

I am usually all over this stuff so was pretty embarrassing when that happened, since then I have recorded morning and evening battery levels with power used through the day, i had not done that prior.
On a normal 24 hour day without being excessive I have estimated my average power usage at around 23 - 25 amps allowing for some leakage. So in reality I should have an easy 4 - 5 days capacity without any power going back in...if starting with full batteries.

Initially I thought about maybe upgrading to the Lithium capable J35D I think it is, but no point really spending around $1100.00 when I have a Lithium compatible MPPT already, also the J35D is also limited to 450w solar input...plus I can buy a Lithiumn compatible charger for less than $500.00. I think too the BMPRO's only use an inbuilt PWM type controller too not an MPPT.

Though the MPPT I have fitted is only rated to 450w as well, I run my panels in series, the MPPT is good for 80v input so can add more solar if I wish to...

Mike Harding · Guru

That sounds better :)

25Ah (at 12V) per day is pretty good = 325Wh - I try to work in Watt hours nowadays.

So:

2 x 175 = 350Ah = 4550Wh x 90% = ~4100Wh useable capacity.

Say your daily usage is 400Wh then you should be good for up to 10 days bush camping.

I shall change to lithium in time and go either 24V or 48V but I'll hang on for a year or so as I expect prices to fall before too long.

Hitting the road · Senior Member

Yeah...the only thing that lets it all down is water. I should also use Watt Hours in my calculations, is easier and more accurate.

Nice to chat...cheers

Mike Harding · Guru

I try to always camp near a creek or dam and use the water from that for everything except drinking/cooking which is supplied by the 200L tank on my van. By doing that I can easily last for two weeks before needing a trip into town with the water containers. A very little sodium hypochlorite in the creek water eliminates bacteria issues when showering or such.

Keep us posted about your lithium experience please, I'll be interested to see how you go.

Hitting the road · Senior Member

Yeah I will update....good idea to camp near water...I only have 160 litres on board, but do carry a small electric pump to lift water from a container in to the van tanks if need be, so having a dam or decent creek nearby would be ideal. I buy our drinking water in plastic bottles, usually 24 pacsk of 500ml bottles which lasts us at least a couple of weeks. Tea and coffee water from the tanks as it is boiled.

As far as creek water goes, when I traveled up to the Cape a few weeks ago, the creek water at places like Gunshot and Nolans was in fact quite ok to drink. Being the water was flowing quite fast and also ran almost Chrystal clear, along with there really being no animals polluting the water such as cows or sheep, or even kangaroos for that matter. Just had to make sure no humans were polluting the water up stream!

The blokes I traveled with filled their water flasks for drinking while there...it didn't kill me either. It would be easy just to throw half a chlorine tablet in to a 20 litre container just to make sure no nasty's present and all good...