A Licence To Tow

RickJ · Senior Member

A Licence To Tow

Gundog · Guru

Shows the stupidity of Drive.com.au, how can you have a national towing licence, when you dont have a National Drivers Licence.

I rarely read anything in Drive because like almost every motor publication or online program, they deliver exactly what the company pays for!

RickJ · Senior Member

Gundog wrote:
Shows the stupidity of Drive.com.au, how can you have a national towing licence, when you dont have a National Drivers Licence.
I rarely read anything in Drive because like almost every motor publication or online program, they deliver exactly what the company pays for!

It appears the that you arent in support of the information.

It could be argued that no poll is accurate, fair enough.

Just on a side note regarding your comment *how can you have a National Towing Licence*

At least in one state in Australia many classes of truck licences are actually national.

https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/heavy-vehicles/operating-a-heavy-vehicle/multi-combination-vehicles

From my observation they are issued in SA but it clearly states on the plastic licence that they are National.

I am not sure of the other states but maybe the National part is to do with the National Regulations that the drivers of many combinations of trucks are required to follow.

From this link

https://www.nhvr.gov.au/law-policies/heavy-vehicle-national-law-and-regulations

So if by some stroke of luck each state decides to licence caravan operators then it would not be out of the question to have a set of National Guidelines of which all licensed operators would have to abide by, regardless of state of issue.

-- Edited by RickJ on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 08:02:59 PM

Gundog · Guru

RickJ wrote:

At least in one state in Australia many classes of truck licences are actually national.

-- Edited by RickJ on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 08:02:59 PM

My previous licence befoe it was renewed the header said "National Heavy Vehicle Drivers Licence", the sub header was "Victoria Australia" the new licence the header changed to "Heavy Vehicle Drivers Licence" the sub header remained the same/

RickJ · Senior Member

Gundog wrote:
RickJ wrote:

At least in one state in Australia many classes of truck licences are actually national.

-- Edited by RickJ on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 08:02:59 PM
My previous licence befoe it was renewed the header said "National Heavy Vehicle Drivers Licence", the sub header was "Victoria Australia" the new licence the header changed to "Heavy Vehicle Drivers Licence" the sub header remained the same/

My son has a truck licence and I remember when it was first issued to him it had National Licence written across the top of it.

I have no idea what any subsequent renewed licences of his have on them but I assume something similar.

When thinking about it, it just stands to reason when the licensing involves weights and a host of other regulations to maintain autonomy across borders they only need one set of rules.

Long Weekend · Guru

Actually, all car driver's licenses are already 'national.' Anybody can drive all around Australia on their state license, providing that they obey the different road laws in each state. Such as school zone speeds in the ACT are active ALL DAY, whereas over the border in NSW they apply only in the morning and afternoons. In South Australia school speed restrictions can apply 24-hours a day - with the small print 'when children are nearby.' A friend of mine was booked there once during school holidays - the unsympathetic cop said 'It doesn't matter, kids could still be around!'

If pulled over for a traffic infringement, then you only have to show your interstate license and confirm that is still your current address.

I got caught by a speed camera in Goondawindy in Queensland once, the fine went to my home address down south a week or so later - with no suggestion that I should have had a Queensland license to be driving in that state.

Should a caravan towing endorsement be introduced for drivers licenses I see no reason why a Victorian one should not be valid for towing in, say, the Northern Territory.

Murray

Edit: included the words 'towing in.'

-- Edited by Long Weekend on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 08:53:51 PM

RickJ · Senior Member

Long Weekend wrote:

Should a caravan towing endorsement be introduced for drivers licenses I see no reason why a Victorian one should not be valid for, say, the Northern Territory.

Murray

Yes I totally agree and it would be foolish to try and regulate state by state.

The fact that Australia has what is basically a national licence for any vehicle over 4.5 tonnes might form the basis with some modification for those licenses issued for towing caravans.

My post was not to actually go into the mechanics of licensing per state or territory but more to indicate that in that poll that 67% of those questioned indicated that a license for a caravan needs to be considered.

My thoughts are that it would be difficult enough to introduce a caravan license so posing extra restrictions would not work, but it appears that there are many who consider it worthy of consideration.

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

15+ thousand might sound like a lot of people but in reality it is not a spit in the ocean. To change anything requires millions of votes and even then just slightly less than half the population may not agree. Instead of a caravan licence maybe a national towing speed limit of 100 kph?

RickJ · Senior Member

It most certainly comes back to the accuracy of any poll.

We only have to look at polls before elections to realise that the numbers can be flawed.

It would be unlikely that any license change for caravaners would actually go to a referendum but if it did it might be shown that the average Joe driver that has had a bad experience with a caravan might just vote yes for the licence. This is only a guess but those poll figures above, even being a cross section of a group of some kind, do indicate that in some sections there exists a majority that want them introduced.

I think you will find that in many states the actual maximum towing speed is already 100KPH. and this applies although some states have roads which are gazetted at 110 KPH or even a bit faster if in the NT. I am not sure about WA maximums but towing speed is 100 there as well or at least it was last time I was there.

Changing speed regulations in relation to the problem is at best a band aid fix.
A driver can tow at a less speed if he or she so wishes.

Addressing the fact that many who tow caravans have little to no skill in doing so, and training and the issuing of licenses might be a reasonable way to address the danger that is posed to the general public when those who lack any skill or training are out on our roads.

Those that are fortunate enough to have been trained or learned through hands on experience gained over many years should not have much of a concern about sitting a test that proves their skill and competence to authorities.

yobarr · Guru

Deleted (Accidentally!)

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 25th of April 2023 09:37:10 PM

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

RickJ wrote:
It most certainly comes back to the accuracy of any poll.

We only have to look at polls before elections to realise that the numbers can be flawed.

It would be unlikely that any license change for caravaners would actually go to a referendum but if it did it might be shown that the average Joe driver that has had a bad experience with a caravan might just vote yes for the licence. This is only a guess but those poll figures above, even being a cross section of a group of some kind, do indicate that in some sections there exists a majority that want them introduced.

I think you will find that in many states the actual maximum towing speed is already 100KPH. and this applies although some states have roads which are gazetted at 110 KPH or even a bit faster if in the NT. I am not sure about WA maximums but towing speed is 100 there as well or at least it was last time I was there.

Changing speed regulations in relation to the problem is at best a band aid fix.
A driver can tow at a less speed if he or she so wishes.

Addressing the fact that many who tow caravans have little to no skill in doing so, and training and the issuing of licenses might be a reasonable way to address the danger that is posed to the general public when those who lack any skill or training are out on our roads.

Those that are fortunate enough to have been trained or learned through hands on experience gained over many years should not have much of a concern about sitting a test that proves their skill and competence to authorities.

By far the majority of all accidents and road deaths are caused by people who do hold a licence to drive, yes, a minority do not, but the majority have supposedly proven their skill and competence to the authorities when they sat for their test.

Having held an Australian drivers licence for more than 50 years, a military heavy licence for more than 26 of those years and driven on almost every continent I would be happy for you to pay for me to sit this test and also compensate me for my time.

RickJ · Senior Member

BarneyBDB wrote:
RickJ wrote:
It most certainly comes back to the accuracy of any poll.

We only have to look at polls before elections to realise that the numbers can be flawed.

It would be unlikely that any license change for caravaners would actually go to a referendum but if it did it might be shown that the average Joe driver that has had a bad experience with a caravan might just vote yes for the licence. This is only a guess but those poll figures above, even being a cross section of a group of some kind, do indicate that in some sections there exists a majority that want them introduced.

I think you will find that in many states the actual maximum towing speed is already 100KPH. and this applies although some states have roads which are gazetted at 110 KPH or even a bit faster if in the NT. I am not sure about WA maximums but towing speed is 100 there as well or at least it was last time I was there.

Changing speed regulations in relation to the problem is at best a band aid fix.
A driver can tow at a less speed if he or she so wishes.

Addressing the fact that many who tow caravans have little to no skill in doing so, and training and the issuing of licenses might be a reasonable way to address the danger that is posed to the general public when those who lack any skill or training are out on our roads.

Those that are fortunate enough to have been trained or learned through hands on experience gained over many years should not have much of a concern about sitting a test that proves their skill and competence to authorities.

By far the majority of all accidents and road deaths are caused by people who do hold a licence to drive, yes, a minority do not, but the majority have supposedly proven their skill and competence to the authorities when they sat for their test.
Having held an Australian drivers licence for more than 50 years, a military heavy licence for more than 26 of those years and driven on almost every continent I would be happy for you to pay for me to sit this test and also compensate me for my time.

That is fair enough.

I am sure that many of us who tow caravans have the skills necessary to obtain a license.

I am sure that of those who have those skills as a matter of course of lifes experiences, would easily pass a test.

So it appears in your case BarneyBDB that your main protest is paying for it.

Just as a side note the next time you may be following a road train it might be the case that the driver had to pay upwards of $5,000 to obtain that licence if he is not one of a very few left that achieved that status of license by history of experience.

My son has a combination license that at the time cost him a bit over $3,000 to obtain.

Yes it is a lot of money but at least it ensures that of those behind the wheel are competent when out on the highway mixing it with the unskilled as we saw on a recent dash cam video.

Gundog · Guru

Think about it, you can teach almost anyone to pass a licence test. However every day you observe someone be it a car, truck or any other vehicle driven on the road doing stupid things, and you wonder if the person got its licence in a box of cornflakes.

Now think about the practability of intoducing such an endorsement, you need to setup a training testing syllabus, will training providers need to have a variety of trailers/caravans/5th wheelers and tow vehicles utes through to LC300 series. Are we going to include farm implements as well.

Where will this training fit into small rural communities like Blackall, Penong, Laverton, Elliott, Hillston and many other small communities we visit on our travels.

If you pass your test on dual wheel trailer say an 8x5, does that cover you for all dual wheel trailers, then you need to look at how caravans are classified for registration purposes, in Vic its a private trailer.

How do you expect states to implement such an endorsement when they cannot agree on what age you can get a licence, or their registration and licence fees.

Will there be a sunset clause where those who own a trailer/caravan before x date will be deemed to be qualified, if not how many years would they have to be endorsed.

And lastly how many would continue to tow their vans without bothering, because there are many drivers who drive undetected suspended, never had a licence.

Can you remember the last time you were pulled over and asked for your licence? Me I think it was about 6 year ago at Gilgandra.

tea spoon · Senior Member

i have been towing vans for 40 odd years .....i dont need a licence to do it ......never had a prang ///never had a ticket for speeding or any other road crime .......it would only raise revinue and is not needed ......i cant figure why some want to go this idea.........more vans means more prangs same as cars...........speeding is the main cause of road accidents and drug driving imo ........

TheHeaths · Guru

My only comment would be this.

As inferred by BarneyBDBs post, the granting of a licence would be no silver bullet in caravan accidents, as is already the case with the compulsory drivers licence for vehicles.

Fine, have a test and a compulsory licence, and I will comply but with no expectation of a sudden improvement in accident statistics.

Izabarack · Guru

Duimb idea. If having a license stopped Road Trauma, how come the standard Driver's License does anything to preventn daily examples of crashes and roll overs and common examples of pure stupidity? Until someone explains to me how a License endorcement to tow would make things safer on the road, I will remain of the opinion that its a dumb idea.

Izabarack · Guru

RickJ wrote:

was surprised at the poll results from almost 15,000 participants. Any thoughts?

Yeah, question without notice, answers without thought. Particinants in such surveys need to be screened for some minimum level of Critical Thinking skills.

yobarr · Guru

Today I have been sitting back, chuckling at the many and varied self-righteous responses from people who appear not to understand why there should be a special licence issued to tow any trailer over, say, 2000kg.

Understanding weights, and the dangerous effects of yaw, as well as displaying an ability to manoeuvre the vehicles, are some of the many reasons that such a licence should be mandatory.

If a person is required to drive a rigid vehicle that has a GVM above 4500kg, that person needs to have a different class of licence, for obvious reasons, but our members seem to think it acceptable to let Ma and Pa Kettle loose in what is effectively an articulated vehicle that typically weighs over 6000kg, and has 1 pivot point. (Hitchpoint)

You'd have to be joking, surely.

The Roadtrains that I drive weigh over 130 tons, have 6 pivot points, and an MC (Multiple Combination) is required. Obtaining this licence is not easy, and means you must have had much prior experience on smaller vehicles, up to a semi-trailer, costs many thousands of dollars, takes much time, and getting a job after being licenced is often very difficult for younger folk, because of strict insurance company requirements.

Do you people really think that because you can say you've "Driven thousands of miles mate, never had an accident mate. Just gotta drive to the conditions mate" you would not need to upgrade your licence now that you plan play caravans? Or maybe they could even aspire to play Roadtrains without a licence upgrade?

Get real. A heavy articulated vehicle is a world away from a car.

Having witnessed many abysmal attempts at reversing, I would suggest that the test for a towing licence should include displaying an ability to reverse through a gateway, on the 'blind' side (left) using mirrors only.

After all, that's what passing my semi-trailer licence test included. If you can't reverse the vehicle, you can't drive it. Simple stuff. Cheers

P.S Licencing car drivers to tow vans will never happen. Imagine the effects on tourism when there were fewer caravanners. And caravanners have too much voting power, so it surely would be political suicide to annoy them? Sad but true. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of April 2023 08:16:25 PM

RickJ · Senior Member

Izabarack wrote:
RickJ wrote:

was surprised at the poll results from almost 15,000 participants. Any thoughts?

Yeah, question without notice, answers without thought. Particinants in such surveys need to be screened for some minimum level of Critical Thinking skills.

Last time I noticed this is a public forum which is member based.

Many posts start with a question, I am yet to see anyone seek permission before asking.

Many posts are actually answers or as yours is above, a thought. It is a members choice wether they put *thought* into their reply or follow your example.

I point out that this was not *my* survey but as stated was one I came across while reading.

I am interested that you actually know that those who participated somehow lacked *Critical Thinking Skills* or would we class that as just another

*answer without thought*

yobarr · Guru

Interesting. Did others notice that only 34% answered "No" to this question.

Shows that around 66-66% said "Yes".

Must say that I'm surprised that there were so many sensible people among those questioned. Cheers

RickJ · Senior Member

@yobarr,

You have more or less covered most detail in the debate.

The dread and fear with regard to training displayed in some answers in this topic is not what some reflect in the topic with the dash cam of the caravan hitting the truck.
It was reported in a clip on the Ch7 news two nights ago that when a weighing check was done on a random group it showed that 95% of combinations of vans were non compliant with weights.

For the others THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS BUT WHAT WAS REPORTED.

Today I had occasion to drive over 400 klms on The Bruce Highway. I encountered many caravans. The usual culprits were all out there.
The mid size ute with a boat on top towing a large dual axle van.
The one that is happily cruising along in the single lane road at 77kph but when the overtaking lane becomes available that same driver accelerates to 105 kph. I should mention that when that same van is attempting to merge at the end of the passing lane he hits the brakes to once again slow to 77 kph which then causes the predictable van trying to overtake the car.

If I may mention some topics on here clearly indicate that many of those driving vans did not know how to use the trailer brake controller to apply the van brakes to prevent the jackknife or at the least an uncontrollable violent swaying from side to side.

However over the trip I noted amongst them all are many tidy looking van combinations which most appear to be driving safely in the conditions.
I will include in this group a 20 to 30 tonne truck crane, a backhoe and a couple of cane tractor trailers. My guess is that those drivers were all suitably legally licensed but it would be anyones guess on the experience or license of any or all of the van combinations.

It was later this arvo when there was a line of cars in roadworks and in the lead was a mid size wagon towing a caravan.
When the 80kph roadworks changed without notice to 60kph the van operator jammed on his brakes.
What this possibly experienced and possibly car licensed driver failed to do was look in his mirror before he did this.

The thought crossed my mind very vividly regarding the fact that the vehicle behind him was a BDouble and the driver of that BDouble had the skill and the experience to slow his vehicle to avoid hitting the car and van in front and as well as keep his two trailers and prime mover all in a straight line so as to maintain his trucks position within the lane.

A skill the truck driver has from proper training and experience. A skill he applied to prevent accident and possibly injury or even worse to the vehicle in front of him.

A skill directly related to training and appropriate endorsement or licensing.

I could only assume as witness to the event was that the car /van driver was licensed but he somehow lacked *Critical Thinking Skills*

Unfortunately Yobarr your last comment also holds a fair bit of truth brought about by politics.

P.S Licencing car drivers to tow vans will never happen. Imagine the effects on tourism when there were fewer caravanners. And caravanners have too much voting power, so it surely would be political suicide to annoy them? Sad but true. Cheers

As I drove along today I had a think about this topic I put up yesterday and I racked my brain to think of any other vehicle or machine that can weigh between say 1500 kg and 6000 kg and be operated legally by anyone without a permit, license or safety certificate to indicate that the operator has completed at least some form of training applicable to that vehicle.

-- Edited by RickJ on Wednesday 26th of April 2023 09:06:44 PM

RickJ · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:

Interesting. Did others notice that only 34% answered "No" to this question.
Shows that around 66-66% said "Yes".
Must say that I'm surprised that there were so many sensible people among those questioned. Cheers

It was an result that I found interesting as well.

I feel I was being influenced by the general comments from a history of topics and posts on similar subjects of driver training and licensing on here and some other forums and pages.

67% is quite a percentage.

This poll result might indicate that caravan drivers due to their general driving actions have gained little respect from most of the other road users.

For the good van drivers this is unfortunate but it is how we as humans think.
For the most part all Vanners will be tarred with the same brush as is cyclists, cab drivers, truck drivers etc. The fact that Vanners arent endorsed to support any training at all will always be a compounding reason for the tar treatment.

Gundog · Guru

RickJ wrote:
@yobarr,

You have more or less covered most detail in the debate.

The dread and fear with regard to training displayed in some answers in this topic is not what some reflect in the topic with the dash cam of the caravan hitting the truck.
It was reported in a clip on the Ch7 news two nights ago that when a weighing check was done on a random group it showed that 95% of combinations of vans were non compliant with weights.

For the others THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS BUT WHAT WAS REPORTED.

Today I had occasion to drive over 400 klms on The Bruce Highway. I encountered many caravans. The usual culprits were all out there.
The mid size ute with a boat on top towing a large dual axle van.
The one that is happily cruising along in the single lane road at 77kph but when the overtaking lane becomes available that same driver accelerates to 105 kph. I should mention that when that same van is attempting to merge at the end of the passing lane he hits the brakes to once again slow to 77 kph which then causes the predictable van trying to overtake the car.

If I may mention some topics on here clearly indicate that many of those driving vans did not know how to use the trailer brake controller to apply the van brakes to prevent the jackknife or at the least an uncontrollable violent swaying from side to side.

However over the trip I noted amongst them all are many tidy looking van combinations which most appear to be driving safely in the conditions.
I will include in this group a 20 to 30 tonne truck crane, a backhoe and a couple of cane tractor trailers. My guess is that those drivers were all suitably legally licensed but it would be anyones guess on the experience or license of any or all of the van combinations.

It was later this arvo when there was a line of cars in roadworks and in the lead was a mid size wagon towing a caravan.
When the 80kph roadworks changed without notice to 60kph the van operator jammed on his brakes.
What this possibly experienced and possibly car licensed driver failed to do was look in his mirror before he did this.

The thought crossed my mind very vividly regarding the fact that the vehicle behind him was a BDouble and the driver of that BDouble had the skill and the experience to slow his vehicle to avoid hitting the car and van in front and as well as keep his two trailers and prime mover all in a straight line so as to maintain his trucks position within the lane.

A skill the truck driver has from proper training and experience. A skill he applied to prevent accident and possibly injury or even worse to the vehicle in front of him.

A skill directly related to training and appropriate endorsement or licensing.

I could only assume as witness to the event was that the car /van driver was licensed but he somehow lacked *Critical Thinking Skills*

Unfortunately Yobarr your last comment also holds a fair bit of truth brought about by politics.

P.S Licencing car drivers to tow vans will never happen. Imagine the effects on tourism when there were fewer caravanners. And caravanners have too much voting power, so it surely would be political suicide to annoy them? Sad but true. Cheers

As I drove along today I had a think about this topic I put up yesterday and I racked my brain to think of any other vehicle or machine that can weigh between say 1500 kg and 6000 kg and be operated legally by anyone without a permit, license or safety certificate to indicate that the operator has completed at least some form of training applicable to that vehicle.

-- Edited by RickJ on Wednesday 26th of April 2023 09:06:44 PM

Sorry Rick but as someone who drivers the Bruce Highway from the Whitsundays to Brisbane and back very often, those old chestnuts you describe are rare the platitudes you use is have been around for years, ultimatly they are urban myths sprouted by anti vanners.

The biggest issue on the Bruce is the condition of the road after you leave Gympie, closely followed idiots overtaking trucks, vans in dangerous places, just like the car driver who must stay in the right hand lane no matter what their speed is, then you get the race car driver weaving between lanes.

The survey lacks qualification of who were the responders.

RickJ · Senior Member

Thank you Gundog,

There is nothing more concerning than being indicated that one is a lying on a forum.

As I drove the 400 odd kilometres today I did not notice that you were actually in my vehicle in your stated capacity of not seeing things I saw.

Dont be sorry Gundog you are entitled to an opinion even if you werent with me today.

The road condition is shocking and well below standards in parts but all the more reason why we all might be a bit safer should SOME Vanners have the skills they so obviously lack in correctly operating their vehicle. (As I pointed out with MY observations today)

The road condition was not what the topic is about.

One only has to sit in a caravan park or even a free camp or a service station to see how many of these drivers need good training and advice and this is before they once again venture onto our highways.

As Yobarr said you shouldnt worry as it will be a brave political party that just randomly introduces the endorsement or licensing of Vanners.

It may just be a different story the day *old dad* puts his van on its side under the front of a school bus and we (collectively and convincingly ) get support from a group of parents and concerned others who may just want to introduce (the name of the child or children killed ) as Little Angels Law or Little Johnnies Law (samples only) to ensure that in the future childrens lives and other motorists for that matter, wont be lost due to a driver operating a vehicle without suitable training testing and endorsement.

landy · Guru

I believe there is no point in introducing new obstacles inconvenience and expenses to owning and towing a caravan until we start educating and enforcing the towing rules we already have.

I think A good start could maybe be an attached explanation of vehicle towing weights GVM , GCM, plus axle and towball weights to be emailed out with all caravan rego renewal notices. maybe also a list of penalty's for non compliance.

This could be behind a read, agree and tick the box set up before before you can open your rego renewal. ( cheap and not hard to set up )

Secondly A blitz on enforcing the laws we already have. Like a lot of people I am seeing a large % of rigs out there that are obviously well overloaded. The drivers are either ignorant of rules or just plane don't give a stuff.

Maybe a few stiff fines and a lot of inconvenience would get there attention.

Landy

RickJ · Senior Member

landy wrote:
I believe there is no point in introducing new obstacles inconvenience and expenses to owning and towing a caravan until we start educating and enforcing the towing rules we already have.

I think A good start could maybe be an attached explanation of vehicle towing weights GVM , GCM, plus axle and towball weights to be emailed out with all caravan rego renewal notices. maybe also a list of penalty's for non compliance.

This could be behind a read, agree and tick the box set up before before you can open your rego renewal. ( cheap and not hard to set up )

Secondly A blitz on enforcing the laws we already have. Like a lot of people I am seeing a large % of rigs out there that are obviously well overloaded. The drivers are either ignorant of rules or just plane don't give a stuff.

Maybe a few stiff fines and a lot of inconvenience would get there attention.

Landy

Some good suggestions there Landy.

The mechanics of a safer system can be thought through and as you say could be easily introduced..

The policing is a necessary evil. Could be costly to the respective governments although we do have compliance officers who could be easily retrained for the job.

The police presence unfortunately is slowly but surely being replaced by cameras placed to view and record traffic including infringements. Many van infringements may be difficult to assess from a camera.

Stiff fines and inconvenience to make right what is an illegal situation with road vehicles and their loading is simple if it is implemented to weigh and act on those who flaunt the regs.

From my observations over several years now, vans have been weighed for free in most states and with all those weighed the authorities offer advice and without any penalty.

This has to stop to permit the safety drive to be introduced and to go ahead and achieve results of owners and operators having a legal vehicle.

The hardest bit we face is ensuring the old mate who has sat in an office all his life and after 50 years he and mum pop out to the dealer and buy a van and car which can easily be in excess of 6 tonnes. The dealer and the family all stand there and wave them off with little to no thought of their experience to drive it safely.

This same couple spend probably 80,000 to 100,000 thousand or possibly more on the entire combination and all the bits but so many shy on spending maybe less than 1% of that figure to go and get some professional training in driving manoeuvring and parking the unit.

Even a few grand might stop them putting the entire thing on its side or worse, into another vehicle.

As we see, it can be argued that training wont make any difference. Everyone is entitled to their view.

-- Edited by RickJ on Wednesday 26th of April 2023 11:43:31 PM

Izabarack · Guru

RickJ wrote:

or as yours is above, a thought.

No, not just a thought. More a review of the Methodology used and the quality and validity of the question. Written up as a Research Paper, any review of the survey method, the instrument used, and the usefulness of the results, should bring not more than a bit of a laugh.

RickJ · Senior Member

Izabarack wrote:
RickJ wrote:
or as yours is above, a thought.
No, not just a thought. More a review of the Methodology used and the quality and validity of the question. Written up as a Research Paper, any review of the survey method, the instrument used, and the usefulness of the results, should bring not more than a bit of a laugh.

It is obvious to me anyway that the poll was offered to a genuine crosscut of people based on their readers.

If you could take a poll of 14,000 plus people in say a caravan park, you would get a swayed result as you might if you took a poll from people who were stuck in there cars for hours with a blocked highway caused by an untrained unskilled driver who has tipped his unit over.

From the web link above

*With more and more Australians looking to local touring holidays that incorporate towing, is it time that we implemented appropriate training and qualifications to ensure drivers are towing safely?

Do you think we need a towing licence?

Complete the poll, and let us know your thoughts in the comments below.*

To my observation it is a basic question with the option of what I consider fair and reasonable question options in the poll.

What part of that would you consider to only attract those who lack *Critical Thinking Skills* ( your words) and bare in mind the poll involved almost 15,000 participants.

I get the strong impression that you and some others strongly disagree with endorsements of licenses which would represent the

*actual* skills of the person towing the van.

Attacking the method of gathering information or the messenger who provided the information on the forum, by suggesting that it was a *question without notice* or members answer with *a reply without thought.* is only an attempted diversion which offers nothing to the debate and degrades any members reply that you may not agree with.

If you can offer valid reasons for not licensing new caravaners or endorsing existing licenses in the attemp to improve the safety of others then take the opportunity to do so.

-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 27th of April 2023 08:52:35 AM

-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 27th of April 2023 08:54:04 AM

Izabarack · Guru

RickJ wrote:

It is obvious to me anyway that the poll was offered to a genuine crosscut of people based on their readers.

What does a genuine crosscut of people look like? Valid and reliable data can only be derived after disclosing the characteristics of the participant pool. If that is not done, anyone wanting to use the results to advance a point of view can be challenged in their interpretation. Nothing obvious here as to where the participant pool was accessed. Nothing obvious as to the background or skill level needed to meaningfully contribute an opinion. The mere fact that responses were voluntarily skews the derived data to those who have an opinion and are willing to share that opinion. Oh, says Fred, sitting in the Doctors waiting room reading something from the supplied reading material, I dont tow or own a car, but Ill reply to help them out. I dont have to think about it, I already think its a good idea that Govt regulates everything it can.

The poll as presented is no more that descriptive statistics of responses from those persons who decided to respond to a vague and very loose question.

dogbox · Guru

i would imagine, that if it became a requirement to have an endorsement on your license to tow it would be done the same as most other changes happen to licensing, a line in the sand (so to speak) and all licenses issued after a certain date will require some form of endorsement/test/training to tow
all persons with license before that date would be grandfathered and not affected by changes, so any requirements to have some form of endorsement should not effect many if any people on this forum.

heavy goods licenses were done like that
first it was age over 18 for rigid, 21 for semis (and had to have held rigid license for 2 years?), then number of axles, then weight, then trailers then number of trailers ect

as far as how country/remote places would deal with it they manage to issue licenses now so i suppose they would manage somehow, use to be as simple as driving to the nearest small town police station licensed issued by local cop.