Towing 3400kg is a tough ask for most of the common tow vehicles without going to a big yank tank. Is it correct that the total van weight when laden is 3400kg? And that would be 300kg on the towball and 3100kg on the wheels? I am in poor reception area and can't load the Jackson's calculator.

I think you are counting your towball weight twice. If that is correct, you appear to be within vehicle GVM and GCM. However the tow vehicle is lighter than what it tows, which I would never recommend. While it may be it legal, I suspect your vehicle rear axle loading is probably excessive.

Are these figures from a weighbridge or theroretical, and how did you determine 293kg for passengers (plus items in the back?). Normally the weights reported are not so precise.

Just for clarification perhaps you could post all your limits here. What are the van GTM and ATM on the compliance plate? Are these figures correct?

Vehicle GVM: 3150kg. Actual weight measured while connected?? 3048kg (2455 + 300 + 293).
Van ATM: ?? kg. Actual weight of van on wheels plus on jockey wheel. 3400kg (3100 + 300)
Van GTM: ?? kg. Actual weight on van wheels? 3100kg
Vehicle GCM: 6250kg. 6148kg (3048 + 3100)

Then comes the vehicle rear axle weight. This is easily overloaded and I suspect yours is because the smallish payload of 695kg is expected to be spread between front and rear axles but yours is all on the rear.

When you put 300kg on the rear at the towball, this lifts weight off the front axles. That weight gets added to the rear axle. So the leverage effect of that 300kg probably results in about 430kg or more added to the rear axle.

Your 2 passengers have close to 50% of their weight on the rear axle, and anything in the luggage compartment will be over the rear axle or behind, so also adding to that leverage effect. Assuming the passengers account for half of the 293kg (round to 300kg), that means 75kg from them added to the rear axle plus all (or more) of the remaining 150kg. So that calculates to over 650kg added to the rear axle. Without knowing what your limit is, I would guess that it is well overweight. Maybe limiting what you carry in the back and fitting a WDH will resolve this.

If you come back with details of your tow vehicle and actual ratings and measurements that could be clarified.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 19th of November 2023 04:15:26 PM

I realise I mistakenly typed GVM for the van weight on the wheels rating. It should be GTM (Gross Towing Mass), so I have just gone back and edited the post. GTM for the van, GVM for the tow vehicle.

So you don't have the tow vehicle yet? I don't believe either on your list is acceptable, particurlarly the Everest. Towing 3400kg is a tough ask for all the common utes and particularly the SUV shapes. The killer is that there is no way you can set it up to be heavier than what it tows. Both the GVM and GCM limit this.

The Ranger rear axle rating is 1959kg, so that part is reasonable. No way with the Everest which is 1770kg, but heavier at rear end ex factory than the Ranger.

I think you need something like a RAM 2500 or F250 or light truck. When assessing what sort of vehicle to buy, your requirements should be:

• Heavier than what you are towing for safety

• Long wheelbase gives better stabilty, but keep overhang to a minimum (rear axle to towball).

I will leave it for others to make their comments.

Y62 Nissan will only just do your listed specs similarly the Dodge Ram 4500. Then you will have to ensure you don't have a big burger for lunch.

Thats it unless you go to specialist modifications (such as lazy axle).

PeterInSa wrote:

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Re (When you put 300kg on the rear at the towball, this lifts weight off the front axles. That weight gets added to the rear axle. So the leverage effect of that 300kg probably results in about 430kg or more added to the rear axle.)

Using a WDH, would this not move 150Kg off the back axle onto the front, but what of the other loads on the rear axle.

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 AND consider the weight transferred from car's rear axle to van axle group. Increased ATM is result, so IF your weight was 3500kg, that extra weight will likely put you over your legal ATM. 
Overloaded, unsafe and uninsured. Cheers

malken wrote:

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Thank you everyone who has responded and I appreciate your comments as this also helps others. I need to say my present vehicle is a Jeep gc. Its my second one, the first being a 5 speed and the current one a 8 speed, both owned from new. The first one was fantastic, a weak moment saw me into another new one. The latest has 110000ks of which about 90000ks towing 3400ks. No one has put a spanner to it, it has been fantastic but I need to carry a little more.The Jeep and caravan has been on the weighbridge and all good but expect comments to the contrary. If the Jeep has done the job I cant see why I need to step up to say a Ram at a hell of a lot more in purchase cost and economy.

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 Too busy to give detailed response, but I will say that you have been very lucky. Cheers

Permalink Reply Quote

Yobarr's 4th and 5th paragraphs from this afternoon address that. You wanted to know how to interpret the limits. Now you want to justify why it is OK to break them.

 Im not trying to justify anything, Im just saying whats happened with me.
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-- Edited by malken on Sunday 19th of November 2023 09:48:15 PM

-- Edited by malken on Monday 20th of November 2023 08:58:16 AM

malken wrote:

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 If the Jeep has done the job I cant see why I need to step up to say a Ram at a hell of a lot more in purchase cost and economy.

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That is the part that I suggested you were trying justify exceeding the limits.

You asked a similar question on another forum, but with a lower 3300kg weight. Two responders, and both said your van was too heavy for the vehicle you would like. One of the responders also suggested a Ram 2500 or F250. Three responders here said the same thing, that the van is too heavy for your choice of vehicle and nobody has said it is fine.

So again, while you may possibly get legal with an Everest, the Ranger will do better but that does not mean it is safe. You are wanting to push the boundaries too far.

While you may have done many kilometres with the Jeep, tomorrow may be a different story. Do you think all those people with their rollovers thought any different from you?

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 19th of November 2023 11:48:06 PM

Eaglemax wrote:

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Want to tow 3400 or 3500kg safely? Buy an Isuzu truck for reasons stated. Tony

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 Yes, 3500kg behind one of the popular twin-cab utes, a small SUV or a Ram 1500 is LaLa Land stuff.

If Safety is of ANY concern,ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van. This minimises the effects on "The tail wagging the Dog", a major cause of caravan accidents.

Lately, while driving my Roadtrain, I have noticed increasing numbers of little Isuzu trucks etc. You don't need a Heavy vehicle licence if GVM is under 4500kg. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 09:06:53 AM

Yes I did ask a question on another forum when I was thinking of a Dmax not realising the GCM was 6000kg so that idea went away. Ive now also dismissed the Everest option and will further investigate the Ranger. I usually travel with full water tanks (3x90) so I could reduce weight by only using 2 tanks. There are other bits and pieces I maybe able to take out of the van reducing it too around 3100-3150kg. Hopefully this would make a difference.

The GCM for the Ranger is 6400kg. The following is off the Ford website.

malken wrote:

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The GCM for the Ranger is 6400kg. The following is off the Ford website.

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 Hmmm. That's new! As always,nthe rear axle weight is the limiting factor.

Used to be 1850kg, from memory. Do you have the new rear axle carrying capacity? 

If so, I'll do some figures for you. Cheers

P.s OOPS. Just spotted it! You'll be able to safely tow 3300kg, but it's marginal. Details later if I find time.

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 06:33:59 PM

malken wrote:

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Thanks, look forward to more detail

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 Hi Malcolm, I've just done 14 hours on the Roadtrain, but because you seem to be a responsible person, and genuinely interested in getting your weights right, I will try to help. Bit tired, and may make slight mistakes, but Stephen and Tony have good knowledge and will probably soon find them!

Car looks good, with long wheelbase and short rear overhang, both being features that help with weight distribution.

You may be aware that the actual weight applied to a car's rear axle by any towball weight is a LOT more than the actual towball weight. With this Ranger the weight applied to the car's rear axle by a 350kg towball weight is a MINIMUM of 480kg. 

The influencing factor is  TBO (towball overhang, or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint).

The much vaunted WDH actually increases that TBO, as well as adding around 40kg to the rear axle weight before you even tension it.. FORGET a McHitch as it also increases TBO.

Now for numbers. If safety is of any concern always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% more than the weight on the wheels of the car. Simple physics that minimises the chances of Yaw, or the "Tail wagging the Dog", a major cause of van accidents.

You will NEVER be able to reach your GVM of 3280kg because a 350kg towball weight removes around 130kg FROM the car's front  axle and transfers it to the car's rear axle. . Even if you use the much vaunted WDH, this weight can never be fully returned because a WDH also transfers a percentage of weight from the car's rear axle to the van's axle group. 

For your situation let's  assume that the maximum GVM (weight on car wheels) you can achieve is 3150kg.

This means that the weight on your van's wheels needs to be no more than about 2900 kg, tops.

Assuming that your towball weight is the generally accepted 10% of ATM  when towing heavier vans, this means that your ATM needs to be no more than around 3200kg. 

The way that maximum tow ratings are given to cars needs to be investigated by authorities, but these ratings are effectively issued for a car's ability to tow a DOG trailer, where there's almost no towball download. (Maybe 10kg)

Caravans are known as PIG trailers, and rely on increased towball load for stability, although they are inherently unstable.

NOW, I am no fan of WDHs, believing that they are used ONLY by people trying to make car do things for which it was not designed, but let's assume you fit one, and transfer 100kg back to your car's front axle.

Figures now, on paper, are GVM 3250kg, meaning that your van's ATM can be around 3300kg, but that's stretching things a bit!

As I said early, because of the car's long wheelbase and short TBO, the setup would be relatively safe. 

But no more! 

As stated, I'm very tired and there may be minor mistakes in calculations, but towing a 3300kg ATM van looks feasible.

Hope this at least gives you a bit if an idea, but please ask any questions you may have. Cheers

Thank you both for your very detailed comments which I am sure will be appreciated by other forum members.
The comment The way that maximum tow ratings are given to cars needs to be investigated by authorities is a very valid point.
Thanks again.

Good calculations as usual guys. Using a separate rig as an example- Ssangyong have flooded Facebook recently with their Mussu ute claiming 3500 towing capacity. Kerb- 2195kg GVM- 2980kg GCM- 6480KG A rear axle loading that's impossible to source Towing 3500kg leaves 2980kg before GCM is exceeded which is the GVM weight. However the loaded Musso will be 520kg lighter than the van and more if not loaded to its full GVM. This is why Yobarr mention an inquiry is wanting. It's just unsafe. Once 3500kg begins to sway, goodnight Irene. Also payload max is around 800kg, - 350 TBM = 450- 2x adults 220kg = 230kg left. As you can see the same problem exists. Thanks for posting. Tony