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Post Info TOPIC: Is this legal weight


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Is this legal weight


Totally confused trying to work out weights. Here are the figures:

GVM 3150kg

Kerb weight 2455kg

GCM 6250kg

Payload 695kg 

Weight in vehicle with 2 passengers 293kg

Caravan weight 3400kg

Tbw 300kg

When I add kerb weight, load weight and tbw I come up with 3048kg. Add the van weight of 3400kg and im over the GCM of 6250

If i use the Jacksons 4x4 Accessories websites GVM calculator I am under.

Help please. Im hoping my method is wrong and Jacksons is right.

 

 



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Towing 3400kg is a tough ask for most of the common tow vehicles without going to a big yank tank. Is it correct that the total van weight when laden is 3400kg? And that would be 300kg on the towball and 3100kg on the wheels? I am in poor reception area and can't load the Jackson's calculator.

I think you are counting your towball weight twice. If that is correct, you appear to be within vehicle GVM and GCM. However the tow vehicle is lighter than what it tows, which I would never recommend. While it may be it legal, I suspect your vehicle rear axle loading is probably excessive.

Are these figures from a weighbridge or theroretical, and how did you determine 293kg for passengers (plus items in the back?). Normally the weights reported are not so precise.

Just for clarification perhaps you could post all your limits here. What are the van GTM and ATM on the compliance plate? Are these figures correct?

Vehicle GVM: 3150kg. Actual weight measured while connected?? 3048kg (2455 + 300 + 293).
Van ATM: ?? kg. Actual weight of van on wheels plus on jockey wheel. 3400kg (3100 + 300)
Van GTM: ?? kg. Actual weight on van wheels? 3100kg
Vehicle GCM: 6250kg. 6148kg (3048 + 3100)

Then comes the vehicle rear axle weight. This is easily overloaded and I suspect yours is because the smallish payload of 695kg is expected to be spread between front and rear axles but yours is all on the rear.

When you put 300kg on the rear at the towball, this lifts weight off the front axles. That weight gets added to the rear axle. So the leverage effect of that 300kg probably results in about 430kg or more added to the rear axle.

Your 2 passengers have close to 50% of their weight on the rear axle, and anything in the luggage compartment will be over the rear axle or behind, so also adding to that leverage effect. Assuming the passengers account for half of the 293kg (round to 300kg), that means 75kg from them added to the rear axle plus all (or more) of the remaining 150kg. So that calculates to over 650kg added to the rear axle. Without knowing what your limit is, I would guess that it is well overweight. Maybe limiting what you carry in the back and fitting a WDH will resolve this.

If you come back with details of your tow vehicle and actual ratings and measurements that could be clarified.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 19th of November 2023 04:15:26 PM

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Thanks for your reply, Ill try to answer as best as I can. For clarification those figures you quoted are correct. Van has been weighed on weighbridge as 3400kg fully loaded. The load of 293kg consists of our weight and items individually weighed. The vans atm is definately 3500kg. The van is in storage so I cannot readily access the compliance plate to see the GVM.

I have not been able to find the vehicle axle weights yet, despite many google attempts but the vehicle will most probably be a Ford Everest Sport 3 litre, if not a Ranger dual cab XLT 3 litre with a canopy and rear drawers. I would prefer the Everest Sport though.

Hope this helps  



-- Edited by malken on Sunday 19th of November 2023 03:55:38 PM

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I realise I mistakenly typed GVM for the van weight on the wheels rating. It should be GTM (Gross Towing Mass), so I have just gone back and edited the post. GTM for the van, GVM for the tow vehicle.

So you don't have the tow vehicle yet? I don't believe either on your list is acceptable, particurlarly the Everest. Towing 3400kg is a tough ask for all the common utes and particularly the SUV shapes. The killer is that there is no way you can set it up to be heavier than what it tows. Both the GVM and GCM limit this.

The Ranger rear axle rating is 1959kg, so that part is reasonable. No way with the Everest which is 1770kg, but heavier at rear end ex factory than the Ranger.

I think you need something like a RAM 2500 or F250 or light truck. When assessing what sort of vehicle to buy, your requirements should be:

  • Heavier than what you are towing for safety
  • Long wheelbase gives better stabilty, but keep overhang to a minimum (rear axle to towball).

I will leave it for others to make their comments.



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malken wrote:

Thanks for your reply, Ill try to answer as best as I can. For clarification those figures you quoted are correct. Van has been weighed on weighbridge as 3400kg fully loaded. The load of 293kg consists of our weight and items individually weighed. The vans atm is definately 3500kg. The van is in storage so I cannot readily access the compliance plate to see the GVM.

I have not been able to find the vehicle axle weights yet, despite many google attempts but the vehicle will most probably be a Ford Everest Sport 3 litre, if not a Ranger dual cab XLT 3 litre with a canopy and rear drawers. I would prefer the Everest Sport though.

Hope this helps  


 Busy today working, but if I finish early enough I'll give you the axle weights.  

Everest is under rated, and has surprising specs, from memory! Cheers

P.S If you plan to tow 3500kg, you can FORGET both your options. Even the much-adored LC200 cannot safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. (Caravan)

You'll are likely to get all sorts of stories from owners of lightweight twin-cabs and SUVs (hate that term) about how they've "towed a milliom ks Mate, just gotta drive to the conditions Mate."

Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management.

Again I will say Neither of your choice will safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 19th of November 2023 07:45:25 PM

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Y62 Nissan will only just do your listed specs similarly the Dodge Ram 4500. Then you will have to ensure you don't have a big burger for lunch.

Thats it unless you go to specialist modifications (such as lazy axle).

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Re (When you put 300kg on the rear at the towball, this lifts weight off the front axles. That weight gets added to the rear axle. So the leverage effect of that 300kg probably results in about 430kg or more added to the rear axle.)

Using a WDH, would this not move 150Kg off the back axle onto the front, but what of the other loads on the rear axle.

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PeterInSa wrote:

Re (When you put 300kg on the rear at the towball, this lifts weight off the front axles. That weight gets added to the rear axle. So the leverage effect of that 300kg probably results in about 430kg or more added to the rear axle.)

Using a WDH, would this not move 150Kg off the back axle onto the front, but what of the other loads on the rear axle.


 AND consider the weight transferred from car's rear axle to van axle group. Increased ATM is result, so IF your weight was 3500kg, that extra weight will likely put you over your legal ATM. 
Overloaded, unsafe and uninsured. Cheers



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Thank you everyone who has responded and I appreciate your comments as this also helps others. I need to say my present vehicle is a Jeep gc. Its my second one, the first being a 5 speed and the current one a 8 speed, both owned from new. The first one was fantastic, a weak moment saw me into another new one. The latest has 110000ks of which about 90000ks towing 3400ks. No one has put a spanner to it, it has been fantastic but I need to carry a little more.The Jeep and caravan has been on the weighbridge and all good but expect comments to the contrary. If the Jeep has done the job I cant see why I need to step up to say a Ram at a hell of a lot more in purchase cost and economy.



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malken wrote:

Thank you everyone who has responded and I appreciate your comments as this also helps others. I need to say my present vehicle is a Jeep gc. Its my second one, the first being a 5 speed and the current one a 8 speed, both owned from new. The first one was fantastic, a weak moment saw me into another new one. The latest has 110000ks of which about 90000ks towing 3400ks. No one has put a spanner to it, it has been fantastic but I need to carry a little more.The Jeep and caravan has been on the weighbridge and all good but expect comments to the contrary. If the Jeep has done the job I cant see why I need to step up to say a Ram at a hell of a lot more in purchase cost and economy.


 Too busy to give detailed response, but I will say that you have been very lucky. Cheers



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Yobarr's 4th and 5th paragraphs from this afternoon address that. You wanted to know how to interpret the limits. Now you want to justify why it is OK to break them.

PeterInSa responded to my WDH suggestion. Yes, this would help with bringing front/rear axle loads more in control and could possibly bring the Everest within its rear axle limits. Only around 20kg would be transferred to the van wheels. The Ford Ranger is a lot more capable, with substantially greater payload. Depending on model the GVM is up to 3350kg, so can weigh a maximum of 3050kg before connecting the van. While towing a heavier 3400kg van may still be legal that does not make it safe.


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Permalink Reply Quote

Yobarr's 4th and 5th paragraphs from this afternoon address that. You wanted to know how to interpret the limits. Now you want to justify why it is OK to break them.

 Im not trying to justify anything, Im just saying whats happened with me.
.



-- Edited by malken on Sunday 19th of November 2023 09:48:15 PM



-- Edited by malken on Monday 20th of November 2023 08:58:16 AM

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malken wrote:

Permalink Reply Quote

Yobarr's 4th and 5th paragraphs from this afternoon address that. You wanted to know how to interpret the limits. Now you want to justify why it is OK to break them.

I take exception to that comment, Im not trying to justify anything, Im just saying whats happened with me.
Administrators, I dont post to stir, mine is just a simple post looking for advice which this forum is about.
Happy if you close it, Im not into those supposed assumptions
.


Hi Malcolm, Working long hours so can't explain, but FORGET your two options.( and the Jeep. )

IF I get a day off I will elaborate. Cheers

P.S And FORGET a Ram 1500. The Big Fella Rams are good cars, but the 1500 is a joke, bought by posers. 

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 09:08:06 AM

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malken wrote:

 If the Jeep has done the job I cant see why I need to step up to say a Ram at a hell of a lot more in purchase cost and economy.


That is the part that I suggested you were trying justify exceeding the limits.

You asked a similar question on another forum, but with a lower 3300kg weight. Two responders, and both said your van was too heavy for the vehicle you would like. One of the responders also suggested a Ram 2500 or F250. Three responders here said the same thing, that the van is too heavy for your choice of vehicle and nobody has said it is fine.

So again, while you may possibly get legal with an Everest, the Ranger will do better but that does not mean it is safe. You are wanting to push the boundaries too far.

While you may have done many kilometres with the Jeep, tomorrow may be a different story. Do you think all those people with their rollovers thought any different from you?



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 19th of November 2023 11:48:06 PM

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Want to tow 3400 or 3500kg safely? Buy an Isuzu truck for reasons stated. Tony

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Eaglemax wrote:

Want to tow 3400 or 3500kg safely? Buy an Isuzu truck for reasons stated. Tony


 Yes, 3500kg behind one of the popular twin-cab utes, a small SUV or a Ram 1500 is LaLa Land stuff.

If Safety is of ANY concern,ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van. This minimises the effects on "The tail wagging the Dog", a major cause of caravan accidents.

Lately, while driving my Roadtrain, I have noticed increasing numbers of little Isuzu trucks etc. You don't need a Heavy vehicle licence if GVM is under 4500kg. Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 09:06:53 AM

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I have seen quite a few RAM 1500 on Sydney Northern Beaches, probably for school runs, the ideal vehicle for these situations!

 

All the RAM vehicles to date I have seen have 40mm towbar socket. I always have a quiet personal laugh at this rubbish situation.

 

 



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Yes I did ask a question on another forum when I was thinking of a Dmax not realising the GCM was 6000kg so that idea went away. Ive now also dismissed the Everest option and will further investigate the Ranger. I usually travel with full water tanks (3x90) so I could reduce weight by only using 2 tanks. There are other bits and pieces I maybe able to take out of the van reducing it too around 3100-3150kg. Hopefully this would make a difference.



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malken wrote:

Yes I did ask a question on another forum when I was thinking of a Dmax not realising the GCM was 6000kg so that idea went away. Ive now also dismissed the Everest option and will further investigate the Ranger. I usually travel with full water tanks (3x90) so I could reduce weight by only using 2 tanks. There are other bits and pieces I maybe able to take out of the van reducing it too around 3100-3150kg. Hopefully this would make a difference.


 Hi Malcolm. Absolute TOP tow weight for Ranger is 3100kg, and that's dependent on perfect loading of car.

Good vehicle though. On the "another forum" there's possibly only one fella who really knows weights, and he lives in NSW. Cheers

P.S You do, of course, realise that GCM for Ranger also is 6000kg?

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 03:17:30 PM



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 03:37:48 PM

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The GCM for the Ranger is 6400kg. The following is off the Ford website.IMG_1294.png



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And the Everest is 6250kg

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malken wrote:

The GCM for the Ranger is 6400kg. The following is off the Ford website.IMG_1294.png


 Hmmm. That's new! As always,nthe rear axle weight is the limiting factor.

Used to be 1850kg, from memory. Do you have the new rear axle carrying capacity? 

If so, I'll do some figures for you. Cheers

P.s OOPS. Just spotted it! You'll be able to safely tow 3300kg, but it's marginal. Details later if I find time.



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 20th of November 2023 06:33:59 PM

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Thanks, look forward to more detail

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malken wrote:

Thanks, look forward to more detail


 Hi Malcolm, I've just done 14 hours on the Roadtrain, but because you seem to be a responsible person, and genuinely interested in getting your weights right, I will try to help. Bit tired, and may make slight mistakes, but Stephen and Tony have good knowledge and will probably soon find them!

Car looks good, with long wheelbase and short rear overhang, both being features that help with weight distribution.

You may be aware that the actual weight applied to a car's rear axle by any towball weight is a LOT more than the actual towball weight. With this Ranger the weight applied to the car's rear axle by a 350kg towball weight is a MINIMUM of 480kg. 

The influencing factor is  TBO (towball overhang, or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint).

The much vaunted WDH actually increases that TBO, as well as adding around 40kg to the rear axle weight before you even tension it.. FORGET a McHitch as it also increases TBO.

Now for numbers. If safety is of any concern always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% more than the weight on the wheels of the car. Simple physics that minimises the chances of Yaw, or the "Tail wagging the Dog", a major cause of van accidents.

You will NEVER be able to reach your GVM of 3280kg because a 350kg towball weight removes around 130kg FROM the car's front  axle and transfers it to the car's rear axle. . Even if you use the much vaunted WDH, this weight can never be fully returned because a WDH also transfers a percentage of weight from the car's rear axle to the van's axle group. 

For your situation let's  assume that the maximum GVM (weight on car wheels) you can achieve is 3150kg.

This means that the weight on your van's wheels needs to be no more than about 2900 kg, tops.

Assuming that your towball weight is the generally accepted 10% of ATM  when towing heavier vans, this means that your ATM needs to be no more than around 3200kg. 

The way that maximum tow ratings are given to cars needs to be investigated by authorities, but these ratings are effectively issued for a car's ability to tow a DOG trailer, where there's almost no towball download. (Maybe 10kg)

Caravans are known as PIG trailers, and rely on increased towball load for stability, although they are inherently unstable.

NOW, I am no fan of WDHs, believing that they are used ONLY by people trying to make car do things for which it was not designed, but let's assume you fit one, and transfer 100kg back to your car's front axle.

Figures now, on paper, are GVM 3250kg, meaning that your van's ATM can be around 3300kg, but that's stretching things a bit!

As I said early, because of the car's long wheelbase and short TBO, the setup would be relatively safe. 

But no more! 

As stated, I'm very tired and there may be minor mistakes in calculations, but towing a 3300kg ATM van looks feasible.

Hope this at least gives you a bit if an idea, but please ask any questions you may have. Cheers



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I agree with much of what Yobarr has written (except we disagree on WDH benefits). However I recall early on you said if you were to choose a Ranger you would want canopy and a drawer set. Unfortunately that significantly changes things. Travelling with less water sounds good, but does that mean giving up freecamping? Hardly likely I imagine.

A canopy weighs around 100kg, and a pair of drawers around 60kg (depends a lot on models).

The Ranger kerb weight is listed as 2320kg. Utes are usually a bit lighter in the rear end than the front so assume 1100kg ex factory on the rear axle.

Earlier malken said 293kg for passengers etc. Allowing about 75kg on the front axle, that leaves 218kg for the tray. With 160kg for canopy and drawers, that makes 378kg. Most of the space is behind the axle, but assuming the load is packed with heavy items forwards this may be 400kg added to the rear axle.

Towball weight advised was 300kg, which I am estimating puts 430kg on the rear axle, totalling 830kg. 1100 + 830 = 1930kg. Just scraping in within the 1959kg rating. If my estimate of ex factory weight on the rear was underestimated by 50kg it is over limit.

Looking at the Ranger weight it is 2320 + 160 + 293 + 300 = 3073kg. Enough room within the GVM of 3280, but too heavy to tow 3400kg and remain within GCM 6400kg. But the problem is the Ranger is too light for the heavy van. Before the van is connected it is only 2773 towing a van close to 600kg heavier. A disaster in the making. Even empty of water the van is still 300kg heavier than the Ranger.

I prefer the guideline that the tow vehicle must always weigh more than the van (when disconnected). The Caravan Council of Australia is much more conservative. Their guideline suggests the tow vehicle should be 30% heavier than what it tows. Disconnected weights.

So, yes, the Ranger can probably just squeeze in to be legal, but a very poor combination with the heavier van. And not legal with 3400kg.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 21st of November 2023 02:20:01 AM

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Thank you both for your very detailed comments which I am sure will be appreciated by other forum members.
The comment The way that maximum tow ratings are given to cars needs to be investigated by authorities is a very valid point.
Thanks again.


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malken wrote:

Thank you both for your very detailed comments which I am sure will be appreciated by other forum members.
The comment The way that maximum tow ratings are given to cars needs to be investigated by authorities is a very valid point.
Thanks again.


 Yes, absolutely that law needs to be changed.

If a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg, ALWAYS it must weigh more than any PIG trailer it tows. This is why some earthmoving contractors have to put a load of spoil into the back of their truck if they wish to move tgeir excavator, bulldozer etc on a PIG trailer.

The sooner such a law is applied to ALL towing vehicles, the safer we all will be.

It'd certainly ground a lot of caravanners who simply don't understand, or refuse to acknowledge, simple physics. Cheers



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Good calculations as usual guys. Using a separate rig as an example- Ssangyong have flooded Facebook recently with their Mussu ute claiming 3500 towing capacity. Kerb- 2195kg GVM- 2980kg GCM- 6480KG A rear axle loading that's impossible to source Towing 3500kg leaves 2980kg before GCM is exceeded which is the GVM weight. However the loaded Musso will be 520kg lighter than the van and more if not loaded to its full GVM. This is why Yobarr mention an inquiry is wanting. It's just unsafe. Once 3500kg begins to sway, goodnight Irene. Also payload max is around 800kg, - 350 TBM = 450- 2x adults 220kg = 230kg left. As you can see the same problem exists. Thanks for posting. Tony

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Eaglemax wrote:

Good calculations as usual guys. Using a separate rig as an example- Ssangyong have flooded Facebook recently with their Mussu ute claiming 3500 towing capacity. Kerb- 2195kg GVM- 2980kg GCM- 6480KG A rear axle loading that's impossible to source Towing 3500kg leaves 2980kg before GCM is exceeded which is the GVM weight. However the loaded Musso will be 520kg lighter than the van and more if not loaded to its full GVM. This is why Yobarr mention an inquiry is wanting. It's just unsafe. Once 3500kg begins to sway, goodnight Irene. Also payload max is around 800kg, - 350 TBM = 450- 2x adults 220kg = 230kg left. As you can see the same problem exists. Thanks for posting. Tony


 A few months ago I spent time getting the run around from Ssangyong until finally they said that the rear-axle carrying capacity if this vehicle is on the compliance plate? 

Perhaps someone can check and advise us, but anybody  who hooks a 3500kg PIG trailer (caravan) behind a vehicle such as this would have to be quite a few cents short of a dollar.

It's an accident looking for a place to happen. NO Cheers here!



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Hi there Yobar.
I just realised those figures I originally advised were for the Ford Everest, not the Ranger XLT that I want so are things better with these figures. What do you think?
GVM. 3280
Kerb weight 2130
GCM. 6400
Payload. 1150
Weight in vehicle
With 2 pax. 293
Van weight. 3400
TBW. 300

Cheers
Malcolm

Oops, looks like Are We Lost has already addressed this.

-- Edited by malken on Saturday 25th of November 2023 06:54:09 PM



-- Edited by malken on Saturday 25th of November 2023 09:38:49 PM

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