is it the law enforcement officers who need to lift their game ? it would seem they do their job and the courts and lawyers let the law breakers out on bail even when they are out on bail to start with, on other /similar charges waiting for a court date.
the poor sods will end up in jail sooner or later but they do a lot of damage in the mean time.
rmoor said
11:38 AM Apr 24, 2024
Sadly Dogbox, you have hit the nail on the head.
The loss of a young lady recently locally at Forbes NSW rams home where the system fails.
They are a well known decent family from that area. That family did not deserve such an awful tragedy.
That is an absolute tragedy but the clock cannot be wound back.
Strange how the judiciary go missing when such events occur.
Personally I would be happy to be taxed to hilt to have multiple correctional centres to house "those" types for the term of their natural lives.
Also I would not object to being scanned for a knife or some such object every time I enter a store or the like.
Provided that the recidivists that do carry these objects with purpose get suitable terms of incarceration and not the joke that is our judicial system at present.
It does not appear to take into account the victims, it only appears to be there for the perpetrators?
As I mentioned earlier, also why do homeowners in Nthn Australia regions have to pay over $100 + per week in House and Contents insurance simply because the laws, social conscience and the courts are too light on recidivist repeat offenders. If they are behind bars and house invasions decrease, the insurance premiums should go down.
At least there are finally signs in the wake of Bondi and Forbes that the general public are finally standing up against these faceless so called law makers and are now starting to jack up over our current almost lawless society where an angry mob of 4,000 can damage 20 police cars and inflict injury on the police when they are trying to do their job and protect the public.
What happened to this country, who allowed it, or where did it all go wrong???
dogbox said
08:46 AM Apr 25, 2024
i did see on the news that a group of teens was picked up for suspicion of potential terrorist activity and it was mentioned that it was not clear what they would be charged with?
i wonder how long till they are back home with their parents to wander the streets?
DMaxer said
09:24 AM Apr 25, 2024
I don't think you have quite got a grasp on how bail laws work. Bail has been around since the 17th century in the UK and became part of our law after the First Fleet in 1788.
There is a presumption of innocence afforded to everyone charged with an offence. The various bail legislations in Australia set conditions and presumptions either for or against bail, depending on the type of offence, the risk of flight, the risk of interference with potential witnesses and or alleged victims and importantly, the strength of the prosecution case. Bail is not always easily attainable as some may think. I have done hundreds, if not more than a thousand, bail applications in my time and they are difficult.
The alternative would be to refuse bail on everyone charged with a serious offence. That would mean a gaol built in every town, probably more than one .It would need multi storey court complexes, court staff, judges, the lot. The usual time now from charging to trial in most serious criminal matters is usually in the vicinity of 12 months minimum, that is usually allocated to those presently in custody.
Imagine we have all these charged people in custody and then some are acquitted. (I realise some people think people have to be guilty otherwise the police would not have charged them.) Whilst in custody they have lost their employment, maybe their house and marriage. Who compensates them for this wrongful imprisonment? Think of the legal cases.
Just because a person is on bail does not mean they are guilty of the offence they have been charged with. Just because a person commits an offence whilst on bail does not mean that he or she must have been guilty of the offence they were on bail for.
One thing that seems to go unnoticed in the reporting of persons allegedly committing offences on bail is who gave them bail. We hear third hand information of police complaining about arresting persons only to see them out on the street in an hour or so. When someone is arrested and charged, the initial bail grant or refusal is done by the police by an officer on or above the rank of sergeant. If that officer refuses bail then the person charged is either brought before the court on that day if the court is still in sitting hours or held overnight until court the next day. These so called people arrested and charged at night and then back on the streets in more trouble several hours later have not been released by courts, but by, guess who.
We are all outraged by crime and we should be. By casting the net further to find more people to blame and punish will do nothing to stop crime. Horrible crimes have been around since settlement. Skafal in early 2000s, Port Arthur massacre in 1990s, Anita Cobby and Jannine Baldwin in the 1980s, Virginia Morse in the 1960s, just to name a few. Hysterically finding people to blame will not fix anything.
The whole world has crime. Society is made up of good and bad people. I read the other day that the Vatican on a per capita basis has the 4th worst crime rate in the world. The Vatican.
Acceptable behaviour starts in the home and then the education system. When that fails, if there is no one to offer guidance, we get troubled youths who grow into serious criminals. There is no quick fix, this did not just spring up overnight. If it just about revenge and punishment and blame then the problems will just get worse.
I don't think anything will stop crime. No one has found a way so far in history. The only hope that society has is to reduce the temptation to enter into crime with better resources and education for young people.
Dick0 said
10:45 AM Apr 25, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
The whole world has crime. Society is made up of good and bad people. I read the other day that the Vatican on a per capita basis has the 4th worst crime rate in the world. The Vatican.
You forgot to mention...
"Vatican City actually has the highest crime rate per capita in Europe, making it the fourth-most criminal city in the world. However, it's fair to say that this figure is hugely inflated due to the Vatican's small population, combined with the large numbers of tourists and pilgrims who visit the city each year".
Alice Springs has the highest crime rate per capita in Australia.
dogbox said
10:46 AM Apr 25, 2024
the cases you mentioned some of the persons who were found guilty, a number of them have served their sentences and are out free.
how many innocent people pay the price to make sure the law breakers rights are protected? how do the people responsible for our system of justice fix the problems?
DMaxer said
02:02 PM Apr 25, 2024
Yes Dicko. The Vatican has an extremely low population but the crime rate per capita is high because of the tourists flocking to the city being set upon by bag snatchers, pick pickets, the odd armed robbery and assaults.
Another odd stat I saw was that in Qld, the age group with the highest rate of offending is the 30 to 39 year old group.
DMaxer said
02:13 PM Apr 25, 2024
By the time the culprits are in the hands of the people who administer justice, Dogbox, the horse has bolted. It is a problem for society as a whole, we all have a responsibility. If there was a simple solution it would have been fixed about the time of Adam.
dogbox said
05:32 PM Apr 25, 2024
if people who are known /habitual offenders are granted bail maybe someone should be held accountable for any offences they commit while on bail !
if repeat offender keep offending maybe they should be incarcerated for longer periods each time they offend at least they would not be free to terrorize the rest of us.
DMaxer said
05:54 PM Apr 25, 2024
There are hundreds if not thousands of people on bail throughout Australia at anyone time. Some may reoffend and their bail is then revoked.
If people continually reoffend their sentences do increase.
If people are granted bail and the prosecution oppose they can have it revoked
by a superior court. Happens everyday.
dogbox said
06:37 PM Apr 26, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
There are hundreds if not thousands of people on bail throughout Australia at anyone time. Some may reoffend and their bail is then revoked. If people continually reoffend their sentences do increase. If people are granted bail and the prosecution oppose they can have it revoked by a superior court. Happens everyday.
that maybe the way it is supposed to work but from what we are seeing and hearing it does not seem to be happening as it should.
DMaxer said
07:30 PM Apr 26, 2024
As I said, there are thousands on bail. How many have you heard about?
Or was that not the question?
In any event, I am not an apologist for the justice system, just an observer.
peter67 said
10:15 AM Apr 27, 2024
The 14yo facing terror related charges as part of the Wakeley church stabbing investigation was already on conditional bail for gun possession charges.
DMaxer said
10:48 AM Apr 27, 2024
Well there you go. Does that mean that everyone who is on bail, especially those who are on bail after no objection from the prosecution or granted bail by police after they were charged should now all have their bail revoked and remain in custody until they are either convicted or acquitted?
No matter what you look at in society there will always be those that disregard the law, breach bail, act corruptly, misuse their power of office, it just happens.
Would you like to live in a society or country where everyone was presumed guilty if police made an accusation or allegation and the onus was on the individual to prove their own innocence?
the poor sods will end up in jail sooner or later but they do a lot of damage in the mean time.
The loss of a young lady recently locally at Forbes NSW rams home where the system fails.
They are a well known decent family from that area. That family did not deserve such an awful tragedy.
That is an absolute tragedy but the clock cannot be wound back.
Strange how the judiciary go missing when such events occur.
Personally I would be happy to be taxed to hilt to have multiple correctional centres to house "those" types for the term of their natural lives.
Also I would not object to being scanned for a knife or some such object every time I enter a store or the like.
Provided that the recidivists that do carry these objects with purpose get suitable terms of incarceration and not the joke that is our judicial system at present.
It does not appear to take into account the victims, it only appears to be there for the perpetrators?
As I mentioned earlier, also why do homeowners in Nthn Australia regions have to pay over $100 + per week in House and Contents insurance simply because the laws, social conscience and the courts are too light on recidivist repeat offenders. If they are behind bars and house invasions decrease, the insurance premiums should go down.
At least there are finally signs in the wake of Bondi and Forbes that the general public are finally standing up against these faceless so called law makers and are now starting to jack up over our current almost lawless society where an angry mob of 4,000 can damage 20 police cars and inflict injury on the police when they are trying to do their job and protect the public.
What happened to this country, who allowed it, or where did it all go wrong???
i wonder how long till they are back home with their parents to wander the streets?
I don't think you have quite got a grasp on how bail laws work. Bail has been around since the 17th century in the UK and became part of our law after the First Fleet in 1788.
There is a presumption of innocence afforded to everyone charged with an offence. The various bail legislations in Australia set conditions and presumptions either for or against bail, depending on the type of offence, the risk of flight, the risk of interference with potential witnesses and or alleged victims and importantly, the strength of the prosecution case. Bail is not always easily attainable as some may think. I have done hundreds, if not more than a thousand, bail applications in my time and they are difficult.
The alternative would be to refuse bail on everyone charged with a serious offence. That would mean a gaol built in every town, probably more than one .It would need multi storey court complexes, court staff, judges, the lot. The usual time now from charging to trial in most serious criminal matters is usually in the vicinity of 12 months minimum, that is usually allocated to those presently in custody.
Imagine we have all these charged people in custody and then some are acquitted. (I realise some people think people have to be guilty otherwise the police would not have charged them.) Whilst in custody they have lost their employment, maybe their house and marriage. Who compensates them for this wrongful imprisonment? Think of the legal cases.
Just because a person is on bail does not mean they are guilty of the offence they have been charged with. Just because a person commits an offence whilst on bail does not mean that he or she must have been guilty of the offence they were on bail for.
One thing that seems to go unnoticed in the reporting of persons allegedly committing offences on bail is who gave them bail. We hear third hand information of police complaining about arresting persons only to see them out on the street in an hour or so. When someone is arrested and charged, the initial bail grant or refusal is done by the police by an officer on or above the rank of sergeant. If that officer refuses bail then the person charged is either brought before the court on that day if the court is still in sitting hours or held overnight until court the next day. These so called people arrested and charged at night and then back on the streets in more trouble several hours later have not been released by courts, but by, guess who.
We are all outraged by crime and we should be. By casting the net further to find more people to blame and punish will do nothing to stop crime. Horrible crimes have been around since settlement. Skafal in early 2000s, Port Arthur massacre in 1990s, Anita Cobby and Jannine Baldwin in the 1980s, Virginia Morse in the 1960s, just to name a few. Hysterically finding people to blame will not fix anything.
The whole world has crime. Society is made up of good and bad people. I read the other day that the Vatican on a per capita basis has the 4th worst crime rate in the world. The Vatican.
Acceptable behaviour starts in the home and then the education system. When that fails, if there is no one to offer guidance, we get troubled youths who grow into serious criminals. There is no quick fix, this did not just spring up overnight. If it just about revenge and punishment and blame then the problems will just get worse.
I don't think anything will stop crime. No one has found a way so far in history. The only hope that society has is to reduce the temptation to enter into crime with better resources and education for young people.
You forgot to mention...
"Vatican City actually has the highest crime rate per capita in Europe, making it the fourth-most criminal city in the world. However, it's fair to say that this figure is hugely inflated due to the Vatican's small population, combined with the large numbers of tourists and pilgrims who visit the city each year".
Alice Springs has the highest crime rate per capita in Australia.
how many innocent people pay the price to make sure the law breakers rights are protected? how do the people responsible for our system of justice fix the problems?
if repeat offender keep offending maybe they should be incarcerated for longer periods each time they offend at least they would not be free to terrorize the rest of us.
that maybe the way it is supposed to work but from what we are seeing and hearing it does not seem to be happening as it should.
Well there you go. Does that mean that everyone who is on bail, especially those who are on bail after no objection from the prosecution or granted bail by police after they were charged should now all have their bail revoked and remain in custody until they are either convicted or acquitted?
No matter what you look at in society there will always be those that disregard the law, breach bail, act corruptly, misuse their power of office, it just happens.
Would you like to live in a society or country where everyone was presumed guilty if police made an accusation or allegation and the onus was on the individual to prove their own innocence?
Just reinforces what I have been saying here.
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