Just Nuts

Yuglamron · Guru

Just Nuts

baute · Senior Member

I am sending this out to the universe! Today I decided I was just going to do it! I wasn't going to let it beat me! I put my mind to it, I decided I was the last person left on earth and if it had to be done it was up to me.

Having been stranded four times in recent years on the road with flat tyres and having the knowledge but not the strength to remove wheel nuts and waiting or begging for help I know there has to be an answer. I have a flat on my trailer, mind you it has been flat for weeks and up on stands waiting for me to summon the strength. I could ring NRMA AGAIN! But I want to do it myself, I want that ability!

I have searched the internet for hints and found mixed answers about impact wrenches, torque things and breaker bars. Not wanting to waste money on a machine that doesn't live up to it's promises, so today I tried the WD40 trick and breaker bar method. After 4 hours I had successfully loosened off 4 of 5 wheel nuts, so this method works to a point. The 5th nut is being stubborn, maybe it's just me but it will not break loose. So here I am not defeated yet, tomorrow my super human strength may just budge that 5th nut.

So any positive vibes anyone wishes to send me to make that nut move tomorrow will be welcomed. Also any information about miracle machine that will save me hours in the future would be appreciated.

Oh a bit about me, I love this forum, I have been reading for ages and learning heaps from all of you thank you. I am a part time traveller, read "when I get holidays". Solo traveller with a variety of setups, tent, trailer or ute with canopy.

One day I maybe a true nomad but in the meantime appreciate the experience and knowledge of those out there.

GaryKelly · Guru

Great story. Sorry I can't help, but I just wanted you to know that I enjoyed your nuts.

baute · Senior Member

Funny funny yep I am REALLY enjoying these nuts. NOT! But the battle of will over strength is challenging!

Weedy Pigeon · Senior Member

Most 1/2 inch breaker bars aren't stiff enough to be used for wheel nuts that are tight or any really tight nuts for that matter. Get a piece of water pipe twice as long as the bar and able to be slid over the bar. That way you'll take the springiness out of the bar.
get some Copperkote or antiseize for the wheel studs when you put them back on.

1/2 inch Breaker bars are OK for the lighter work but anything past a normal wheel nut such as diesel cylinder head nuts are way beyond the capability of any 1/2 inch bars. I've got both Sidchrome and Dowidat 1/2 inch breaker bars, both bent. Also have a 3/4 drive set which will take care of most wheel nuts up to 4wd sizes. Best to use a 6 sided socket to avoid damage to the nuts.
It all gets back to basic maintenance.

baute · Senior Member

Thank you for your replies, I am taking this all in and will try all suggestions. I wont let this beat me! Once I have success I will post the solution.

baute · Senior Member

Hi Weedy pigeon,

You said,

Also have a 3/4 drive set which will take care of most wheel nuts up to 4wd sizes. Best to use a 6 sided socket to avoid damage to the nuts.

I have been using a six sided wheel brace with an aluminum rod/bar thing to give me extra leverage.

Silly question maybe but: what is a 3/4 drive set? is this something you attach to a drill?

baute · Senior Member

Thank you Yuglamron

That power enforcer looks interesting, I have a torque wrench but it did not work, the way the power enforcer has an extra arm maybe the extra that I need.

Weedy Pigeon · Senior Member

baute wrote:
Hi Weedy pigeon,
You said,
Also have a 3/4 drive set which will take care of most wheel nuts up to 4wd sizes. Best to use a 6 sided socket to avoid damage to the nuts.
I have been using a six sided wheel brace with an aluminum rod/bar thing to give me extra leverage.
Silly question maybe but: what is a 3/4 drive set? is this something you attach to a drill?

3/4 inch is the size of the square drive in the socket. Most work up to 4wds can be handled by 1/2 inch drive sockets but older vehicles with 'U ' bolts over the axles will be too much for them. You've got to take the springiness out of the bar, it has to be solid leverage regardless of the size of the bar.

Even 3/4 inch pneumatic air tools won't shift some nuts.

You say it is up on stands? How are you stopping the wheel from turning?

justcruisin01 · Guru

Weedy Pigeon wrote:
Most 1/2 inch breaker bars aren't stiff enough to be used for wheel nuts that are tight or any really tight nuts for that matter. Get a piece of water pipe twice as long as the bar and able to be slid over the bar. That way you'll take the springiness out of the bar.
get some Copperkote or antiseize for the wheel studs when you put them back on.

1/2 inch Breaker bars are OK for the lighter work but anything past a normal wheel nut such as diesel cylinder head nuts are way beyond the capability of any 1/2 inch bars. I've got both Sidchrome and Dowidat 1/2 inch breaker bars, both bent. Also have a 3/4 drive set which will take care of most wheel nuts up to 4wd sizes. Best to use a 6 sided socket to avoid damage to the nuts.
It all gets back to basic maintenance.

You must be using very short handled breaker bars. Ive been in the trade most of my life & used 1/2" drive every day from wheel nuts to cyl, head studs with out a problem, accasionaly the pipe extension but have never broke a bar. A four way wheel brace gives a lot of purchase.

Weedy Pigeon · Senior Member

G'day justcruisin01

"You must be using very short handled breaker bars. Ive been in the trade most of my life & used 1/2" drive every day from wheel nuts to cyl, head studs with out a problem, accasionaly the pipe extension but have never broke a bar. A four way wheel brace gives a lot of purchase."

No I've never " broke " one either but I've got 2 bent ones as I said in my response. Standard length breaker bars. Maybe trying to undo harmonic balancers on diesels by hitting the starter didn't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No way will tractor diesel head studs or wheel nuts be shifted using 1/2 inch gear, particularly when they're left parked in the paddock in all sorts of weather for year after year. We had to torque tractor wheel nuts using 3/4 gear.
I suppose it all depends on the range of work being carried out
Also wouldn't want to tighten slasher blade retaining bolts using 1/2 inch gear either when you consider they'll send a 5 kg blade side on through a piece of 5mm steel plate if they come off, particularly when the slashers are used to do roadsides with traffic alongside.

Mark · Senior Member

Definatley agree with Weedy Pigeon's suggestion about a 3/4 inch breaker bar and a length of tube, general rule is tube can be twice the length of the origainal bar which gives three times the power. This is of course to UN-DO he nuts, NOT to do them up again!!
However and I'm not trying to be smart or put anybody down, but the use of copperkote or any form of grease (as a solid) is an absolute no-no!!

Anything that is a paste/grease consistancy can cause a hydraulic action (you can compress air but not a fluid or a solid) and render the wheel nut un-tightenable, they may feel tight when you initially do them up, but it is the compression of the paste/grease that makes you think it's tight.
As time moves on, rain, washing etc, thins out the paste/grease and actually removes the paste/grease from the threads and leaves the nut looser than it should be.

Having carried out MANY inspections on vehicles that have been involved in RTA (Road Traffic Accidents) due to lost wheel scenarios I speak with condifdence.
In the VAST majority of cases the wheel loss was due to hydraulic action, this also included scenarios where people had painted their wheels and hubs.

My recommendation is, using a product like CRC - de-sieze, spray the threads and wipe with a cloth. Spray the threads with light silcone spray, (you can but a product from selly's called "Zipper Spray") allow to drip dry for a minute or two, don;t wipe it off the threads, and install the nuts. Torque the nuts to the recommended torque setting and all should be fine. After 50 kms, re-torque the nuts being sure not to overtighten them, the danger is to say, "oh I'll just give it a bit more" and then you stretch the studs and we are back to lost wheel nuts.

Sorrry to be so technical, but I am paranoid about wheel nuts after being involved in several fatality inspections, one that saw a truck wheel bounce across a carriageway and through a car windscreen on the opposite side of the road (three lane each way............... HORRIFIC) due to.............. grease on the studs!! (serviced three days prior)

Regards and sorry for the "not intended to be" lecture

Mark

baute · Senior Member

Weedy Pigeon wrote:
baute wrote:
Hi Weedy pigeon,
You said,
Also have a 3/4 drive set which will take care of most wheel nuts up to 4wd sizes. Best to use a 6 sided socket to avoid damage to the nuts.
I have been using a six sided wheel brace with an aluminum rod/bar thing to give me extra leverage.
Silly question maybe but: what is a 3/4 drive set? is this something you attach to a drill?

3/4 inch is the size of the square drive in the socket. Most work up to 4wds can be handled by 1/2 inch drive sockets but older vehicles with 'U ' bolts over the axles will be too much for them. You've got to take the springiness out of the bar, it has to be solid leverage regardless of the size of the bar.
Even 3/4 inch pneumatic air tools won't shift some nuts.
You say it is up on stands? How are you stopping the wheel from turning?

Hi, no I took it off stands to stop wheels from turning, interesting some pneumatic air tools wont shift some nuts, seems this is a difficult problem and sometimes its just sheer strength or luck that gets them off. This is why I have been reluctant to purchase items such as impact wrench as I have read they often don't work. Might just have to take advantage of my NRMA membership again. But not until I have another go :)

Weedy Pigeon · Senior Member

Mark wrote:
Definatley agree with Weedy Pigeon's suggestion about a 3/4 inch breaker bar and a length of tube, general rule is tube can be twice the length of the origainal bar which gives three times the power. This is of course to UN-DO he nuts, NOT to do them up again!!
However and I'm not trying to be smart or put anybody down, but the use of copperkote or any form of grease (as a solid) is an absolute no-no!!
Anything that is a paste/grease consistancy can cause a hydraulic action (you can compress air but not a fluid or a solid) and render the wheel nut un-tightenable, they may feel tight when you initially do them up, but it is the compression of the paste/grease that makes you think it's tight.
As time moves on, rain, washing etc, thins out the paste/grease and actually removes the paste/grease from the threads and leaves the nut looser than it should be.

Having carried out MANY inspections on vehicles that have been involved in RTA (Road Traffic Accidents) due to lost wheel scenarios I speak with condifdence.
In the VAST majority of cases the wheel loss was due to hydraulic action, this also included scenarios where people had painted their wheels and hubs.
My recommendation is, using a product like CRC - de-sieze, spray the threads and wipe with a cloth. Spray the threads with light silcone spray, (you can but a product from selly's called "Zipper Spray") allow to drip dry for a minute or two, don;t wipe it off the threads, and install the nuts. Torque the nuts to the recommended torque setting and all should be fine. After 50 kms, re-torque the nuts being sure not to overtighten them, the danger is to say, "oh I'll just give it a bit more" and then you stretch the studs and we are back to lost wheel nuts.
Sorrry to be so technical, but I am paranoid about wheel nuts after being involved in several fatality inspections, one that saw a truck wheel bounce across a carriageway and through a car windscreen on the opposite side of the road (three lane each way............... HORRIFIC) due to.............. grease on the studs!! (serviced three days prior)
Regards and sorry for the "not intended to be" lecture
Mark

I've only been using grease on wheel nuts since 1966 so don't know much about the subject. Nice to know the nut is tightening against the rim rather than the torque being from the thread binding.

Didn't realise trying to submit helpful suggestions would turn into having to justify one's responses.

I will defer to superior knowledge however now and leave the experts to suggest solutions and submit no more to the tech Corner if my suggestions have the potential to cause safety issues.

It was interesting while it lasted.

baute · Senior Member

Mark wrote:
Definatley agree with Weedy Pigeon's suggestion about a 3/4 inch breaker bar and a length of tube, general rule is tube can be twice the length of the origainal bar which gives three times the power. This is of course to UN-DO he nuts, NOT to do them up again!!
However and I'm not trying to be smart or put anybody down, but the use of copperkote or any form of grease (as a solid) is an absolute no-no!!
Anything that is a paste/grease consistancy can cause a hydraulic action (you can compress air but not a fluid or a solid) and render the wheel nut un-tightenable, they may feel tight when you initially do them up, but it is the compression of the paste/grease that makes you think it's tight.
As time moves on, rain, washing etc, thins out the paste/grease and actually removes the paste/grease from the threads and leaves the nut looser than it should be.

Having carried out MANY inspections on vehicles that have been involved in RTA (Road Traffic Accidents) due to lost wheel scenarios I speak with condifdence.
In the VAST majority of cases the wheel loss was due to hydraulic action, this also included scenarios where people had painted their wheels and hubs.
My recommendation is, using a product like CRC - de-sieze, spray the threads and wipe with a cloth. Spray the threads with light silcone spray, (you can but a product from selly's called "Zipper Spray") allow to drip dry for a minute or two, don;t wipe it off the threads, and install the nuts. Torque the nuts to the recommended torque setting and all should be fine. After 50 kms, re-torque the nuts being sure not to overtighten them, the danger is to say, "oh I'll just give it a bit more" and then you stretch the studs and we are back to lost wheel nuts.
Sorrry to be so technical, but I am paranoid about wheel nuts after being involved in several fatality inspections, one that saw a truck wheel bounce across a carriageway and through a car windscreen on the opposite side of the road (three lane each way............... HORRIFIC) due to.............. grease on the studs!! (serviced three days prior)
Regards and sorry for the "not intended to be" lecture
Mark

Thanks Mark,

This is good information and valued as greasing nuts is something I have heard of before though never have, I haven't got nuts off in order to grease but now won/t even be tempted to.

Mark · Senior Member

Hi baute

My sincerest suggestion would be to take the vehicle to a reputable workshop AA/RAC and explain your predicament and explain that you want the wheel nuts put on using hand tools only, not pnuematic air wrenches that they use in the fast fit centres. I use a pnuematic air wrench for many things, but never wheel nuts. And, whilst you are there, ask them to show you the various tools that you can use/buy to get them off. Have a look at a local TAFE class, they often do wheel change sessions for females, run by females so you can discuss your concerns openly amongst likeminded people.
If I can be of any more help please send me a PM.

Regards

Mark

Mark · Senior Member

Weedy Pigeon wrote:
Mark wrote:
Definatley agree with Weedy Pigeon's suggestion about a 3/4 inch breaker bar and a length of tube, general rule is tube can be twice the length of the origainal bar which gives three times the power. This is of course to UN-DO he nuts, NOT to do them up again!!
However and I'm not trying to be smart or put anybody down, but the use of copperkote or any form of grease (as a solid) is an absolute no-no!!
Anything that is a paste/grease consistancy can cause a hydraulic action (you can compress air but not a fluid or a solid) and render the wheel nut un-tightenable, they may feel tight when you initially do them up, but it is the compression of the paste/grease that makes you think it's tight.
As time moves on, rain, washing etc, thins out the paste/grease and actually removes the paste/grease from the threads and leaves the nut looser than it should be.

Having carried out MANY inspections on vehicles that have been involved in RTA (Road Traffic Accidents) due to lost wheel scenarios I speak with condifdence.
In the VAST majority of cases the wheel loss was due to hydraulic action, this also included scenarios where people had painted their wheels and hubs.
My recommendation is, using a product like CRC - de-sieze, spray the threads and wipe with a cloth. Spray the threads with light silcone spray, (you can but a product from selly's called "Zipper Spray") allow to drip dry for a minute or two, don;t wipe it off the threads, and install the nuts. Torque the nuts to the recommended torque setting and all should be fine. After 50 kms, re-torque the nuts being sure not to overtighten them, the danger is to say, "oh I'll just give it a bit more" and then you stretch the studs and we are back to lost wheel nuts.
Sorrry to be so technical, but I am paranoid about wheel nuts after being involved in several fatality inspections, one that saw a truck wheel bounce across a carriageway and through a car windscreen on the opposite side of the road (three lane each way............... HORRIFIC) due to.............. grease on the studs!! (serviced three days prior)
Regards and sorry for the "not intended to be" lecture
Mark
I've only been using grease on wheel nuts since 1966 so don't know much about the subject. Nice to know the nut is tightening against the rim rather than the torque being from the thread binding.
Didn't realise trying to submit helpful suggestions would turn into having to justify one's responses.
I will defer to superior knowledge however now and leave the experts to suggest solutions and submit no more to the tech Corner if my suggestions have the potential to cause safety issues.
It was interesting while it lasted.

Why get so upset about a simple discussion and take the attitude of not bothering again?
Isn't a forum about exchnage and suggestion and a place to learn?
I'll aopolgise if you feel the manner of my reply offended you, but to say you've been doing something for so long blah...blah...blah... is not acceptance that it is physically correct is it?
I don't quite understand the comment about tightening against the rim and the torque of the thread, perhaps you could educate me on this.
I did not at any point say I was an expert did I? I merely said that I had been involved in many inspections.

Finally, I have purposely NEVER joined a forum before as I have always looked at the bickering and arguing that takes place, but I thought that with some of the experiences that I have had in the motor industry, including 20 years on product design and development with Mercedes-Benz, and five years running my own automotive development company that was utilised by the likes of,
Aston Martin, BMW, Ford, Jaguar, Range Rover, Nissan, Toyota, Rolls Royce, Bentley and a few others that I won't mention, I'd give it a go.

But, and there is no surprise I guess, there are folk here too that just have to sling themselves about, so, as I am a fairly new member, I'll do the honourable thing and hand my stripes back. You can continue to offer ill informed advice to all those that wish to use it and I hope that you have lots of success.

Signing off

Ex-GN Member.

goldcoaster · Senior Member

Powerhand Enforcer I want one,where do I get it :)
Recently had a flat on the Motorhome ,could not for the life of me loosen them and it always happens in a dangerous spot,yes had plenty of helpers driving past and tooting. Called the NRMA,after waiting 2 hours, with more well wishes driving past ,he couldn't shift them, so out comes a super long bar and with both of us on it,we cracked them.Soon as I got back went straight to Beaurepaires, replace the lot 6 of them (tyres),dont use rattle gun on them,sorry but we have to,then out comes torsion wrench to tighten more. I now carry a long bar but would like a Power Enforcer,not on Ebay.

Yuglamron · Guru

Hi Goldcoaster,

I have put up a post re the tool and have emailed the company in Holland asking for the Aussie distributors details. I will post the details if I get an answer.

I the meantime I will try and contact the place I bought the tool from in Maryborough Qld and see if they are still in business.

They were on the quay at Maryborough but flooded badly twice in a couple of months and most of the businesses shut down.

Regards Trevor

jules47 · The Happy Helper

Mark - please don't let something like this take you from what is normally a very friendly site. Everyone has their own ideas on the "right" way to do things - but this life should be more about live and let live. Do it your way, if it works, fine, if not - try another way!

Legendts · Senior Member

jules47 wrote:
Mark - please don't let something like this take you from what is normally a very friendly site. Everyone has their own ideas on the "right" way to do things - but this life should be more about live and let live. Do it your way, if it works, fine, if not - try another way!

And the same goes from me too! Life is way too short, especially now at 67 biggrin . Is that now classed as old?

-- Edited by Legendts on Wednesday 3rd of July 2013 04:39:28 PM

goldcoaster · Senior Member

Yes Please.

TAJ · Senior Member

MARK hang in there we all feel a bit knocked around even when we are

right i get it off the leader of opposition when towing

suenray

allinone · Senior Member

Mark wrote: Signing off Ex-GN Member.

If onlylife was that easy, I thought the only way one was an ex GN was either when 6foot under or when admitted to a home...

As an observer all comments, ideas and rules only enlighten my knowledge but now this will be missing.

justcruisin01 · Guru

Boy has this got out of hand, the original topic was about CAR wheel nuts which 1/2" drive is plenty. I do agree withwhat Mark has said & is very true, how ever that has taken it to a much higher level when we talk about trucks & heavy machinery, been there done that as well even with 1'' drive equipment.

Its a shame that so many things get carried away from the original topic. Horses for coarses! we staryed with shetlands & now we have clydsdale.

JC.

ruffnut09 · Veteran Member

baute,

I subscribed to a magazine 3 years ago and received a "gift" being a KCI Ezywrench. It is a 12volt impact driver (350 Nm torque) that I...... doubted would be any good but used it on a set of boat trailer wheel studs and was amazed. I have tried to kill this product with abuse but to no avail. It is now the first bit of kit loaded for any trip....been to the Cape, the Gulf............mostly used on other peoples equipment but still is working fine. Comes with a selection of sockets, extension lead all in a plastic case. At the 4wd shows they were about $40- $50.

I am no way associated with this company but really pleased I was given the gift.

ruff

baute · Senior Member

ruffnut09 wrote:
baute,

I subscribed to a magazine 3 years ago and received a "gift" being a KCI Ezywrench. It is a 12volt impact driver (350 Nm torque) that I...... doubted would be any good but used it on a set of boat trailer wheel studs and was amazed. I have tried to kill this product with abuse but to no avail. It is now the first bit of kit loaded for any trip....been to the Cape, the Gulf............mostly used on other peoples equipment but still is working fine. Comes with a selection of sockets, extension lead all in a plastic case. At the 4wd shows they were about $40- $50.

I am no way associated with this company but really pleased I was given the gift.

ruff

Thank you Ruff,

This was the type of information I required I have looked at The KCI ezy wrench but was not sure if it would work. I am thinking I may just purchase one of these, recommendations of products is useful. I still havent got the final nut off so its shopping I will go :)

Thank you everyone who gave their time to give feedback to this topic, sorry it got off track.

Mark · Senior Member

Folk's

I'm sorry for my outburst, had a lot of time to think about it today, (a few seized bolts to get angry with!!) and have also received some overwhelming PM's from some of the members which have given me the encouragement to go back to the quartermaster's stores and get my stripes back and continue to share whatever I can with whoever wants to listen or try it.

My concern and upset was not about "who was right or wrong" it's just the sarcasm that I don't like, or need.

So, onward and upward, and to Weedy Pigeon.................

I extend my hand out to you and hope that we could learn from each other on other issues in time to come and to assure you that it was not a personal attack on your original post. Surely between us there is a lot of knowledge to be shared and to offer other members.

As I used to tell my apprentice, (many years ago) "The sun rises in the East and sets in the West, and tomorrow is a new day. Let's move on"

Regards to all

Mark

Baz421 · Guru

Yes Mark stay with us,,, your posts are appreciated.

WITHOUT REFERENCE TO ANYBODY as I don't "play the man",, here's my 2 cents worth.

1 Dont use a torque wrench to undo nuts,,, it will never be accuarate again.

2 Don't use lubricants on wheel studs,,,, the correct way is to use a die (same thread diameter and pitch) and CLEAN THE THREADS OF THE WHEEL STUDS (or replace studs), and if necessary clean threads in wheel nuts OR buy new ones.

Farm machinery solutions do not necessarily apply to all applications.

I've seen too many loose wheels due to lubricants including a 6x6 Airport Fire Tender (I was on site and witnessed this near catastrophy).

3 Just because you have done something for 20, 30 or 40 years doesn't necessarily make it right.

4 Be kind to each other,,,,, don't attack the person, but feel free to point out what you believe is inaccurate.

All replies welcome. Cheers Baz

-- Edited by Baz421 on Thursday 4th of July 2013 01:48:01 PM

-- Edited by Baz421 on Thursday 4th of July 2013 01:52:37 PM

Baz421 · Guru

OK BACK TO SUBJECT,,

A good quality 1/2 inch square drive swivel bar with good quality socket,, PLUS a 600-900mm pipe (steam pipe is ideal)that fits over the bar will solve 99% of car/van/light truck applications.

Don't buy crap or you will be disappointed baute.

-- Edited by Baz421 on Thursday 4th of July 2013 01:56:18 PM