HI Ali, I agree with KevinC.

I just bought some towball scales and have spent today rearranging how the van is packed. It is amazing how all the little things add up, and how much difference placement makes.

Cheers, John

Ali Hi, Welcome to the forum. When You are doing Your calculations don't forget the Gross Combined Mass, a lot do. The tow vehicle log book will give all specifications. Towing capacity, tow ball weight etc. Then GCVM that is the maximum that the total of everything can weigh. If the van weighs more than the towing limit You can't just chuck it into the ute. 

Most state transport departments have free booklets on trailer towing rules & regs.

Enjoy Your travels Mike.

The topic of tow weights and towball loadings and the use of WDH come up all the time and to date I yet to come up with the answer for arse end sag on the tow vehicle . Most SUV's on the market now quote a tow capacity of 3000 + kgs. After speaking to a lot of long term vanners and they all say that if you allow the 10% down weight rule on the tow ball you will find the rear end of the vehicle will go to the spring bumpers if you hit a rough road . Reading the small print of many owners manuals they state the use of WDH will void any suspension warranty claims . So how do you keep the vehicle as close to level as possible to avoid steering problems , bearing in mind we all load the vehicle up with additional camping gear and fridges/eskies which already loads the cargo space to max then put the 200+ kg down weight of the van on the tow hitch .

Maybe the vehicle manufactures need to clearly state the difference between flat towing and lowing capacities Lets face it if you fit a towbar to a motor bike you can get it moving but for how long and how safely is another issue altogether . Test this, you can push your van along the flat drive way but try to lift and pull it which is exactly what we ask of our tug.

Any alternative theories on how to legally ( without voiding warranties) overcome arse end sag without having to modify rear end suspension geometry with the use of additional after market springs and airbag configurations would be welcome.

Some just don't get it. Towing capacity has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to tow a caravan. Why you may ask! Towing is simply that, for example get a very heavy box, attach a rope to it and then begin to walk and drag it. You probably can with difficulty, now attach some castors under it and it is more easily pulled along that is the towing capacity of you, the same goes for the tug. Now add some weight to your arms and legs include a bit ofpushing and shoving from bystanders to simulate the pitching to and fro and also to wind factor and then see how much more difficult it is to tow with the extra strain. This is what your tug has to do each time you travel, so of course they are capable of towing(just towing) such as is done in tractor pull competition. If the vehicle requires numerous modification to perform the task the bottom line is that it is now a suit vehicle for the job. Unfortunately there are far too many caravaners in a state of denial and the numbers that come to grief attest to that. Buy a vehicle that is more suitable for the task and in that process there may need to be compromises re comfort and appointments however they would be minor with most modern vehicles including light trucks , my thoughts only. 

montie wrote:

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 Very sensible decision Ali.

Whilst local towing laws (?) allow you to tow a van with a greater ATM than the tow capacity it is not something I would recommend. It is always best to have a built in safety margin. I would also recommend that the tug GVM exceed the van ATM to avoid the "tail wagging the dog" effect.

Montie

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 Gday...

I am not sure you said what you meant, Montie. 

If by "tow capacity" you mean the manufacturer's stated maximum load the vehicle is rated to tow then this must NOT to be exceeded by the actual loaded weight of the van.

The ATM is the mass (weight) that the loaded van must NOT exceed - eg Prado has "tow capacity" of 2,500Kg ... under NO circumstances is the vehicle allowed to tow a van that exceeds a weight of 2,500Kg - ie to be legal the van should have a stated ATM of 2,500Kg or less and/or have a FULLY LOADED MASS of 2,500Kg or less.

Your other comment regarding GVM of the vehicle exceeding the ATM of the van is a wise one - although there are far too many 'legal' rigs on the road where the GVM of the tow vehicle does not exceed the van's LOADED WEIGHT ... let alone the rated ATM.

Cheers - John

montie wrote:

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 John,

ATM is a rating not the actual measured weight.

Local towing laws allow you to tow a van with a rated ATM greater than the tow capacity provided the van actual measured weight does not exceed the tow capacity. In your example a vehicle with a tow capacity of say 2500kg can legally tow a van with an ATM rating of say 2650kg provided you do not load the actual measured weight of the van above 2500kg.

Whilst local towing laws allow this it is not something I would recommend. It is my view that the rated tow capacity should be equal to or ideally greater than the rated van ATM.

Montie

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 Gday...

I understand what you are saying Montie. However, I would think that the example you have just provided is somewhat fictional - possible, maybe achievable ... but fictional. Unless the van was not actually "in use".

Given the paltry 'allowance' for load (usually about 400>450Kg) the TARE of your example would be about 2,250Kg - two full water tanks would be about 130Kg, two full gas bottles - about 25Kg - alone those items would take the LOADED WEIGHT to 2,405Kg and then you need to add pots and pans, clothing, food etc etc - which would usually exceed 95Kg - ATM achieved  so now the van's WEIGHT exceeds the towing rating of the vehicle - in this example.

Practice dictates that a van with an ATM greater than the rated capacity of the vehicle WILL ultimately have a fully loaded WEIGHT greater than the vehicle's rated capacity.

Besides, I believe that, if one has a vehicle rated to 2,500Kg it would be sensible to only tow a van with an ATM of 2,000Kg (eg 80% of ATM) and load it fully in the knowledge that the van will not be overloaded and the vehicle will be within its 'rated' abilities.

That is better than towing a van with an ATM (yes, it is only a 'mass' and not a 'weight') greater than the 'rated towing capacity' of the vehicle. 

Consequently, despite manipulating figures/numbers/weights to make oneself feel justified, it is prudent, safer, and sensible to tow a van with an ATM (yes, I know that is the MASS not the WEIGHT) that is within (below?) the towing capacity of the vehicle.

Cheers - John

montie wrote:

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I think we are on the same page.

As dealers we would never recommend that the van rated ATM ever exceed the vehicle rated tow capacity, even though local towing laws in some circumstances allow it. Local towing laws dictate that the actual measured weight of the van should not exceed the lessor of towing capacity or the rated ATM.

 Montie

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Gday...

 OK perhaps you and I are "on the same page" .... but what on earth is meaning of the statement you have (I assume) quoted.

Firstly it states that "local towing laws' (whatever they are ) do allow the ATM to exceed the vehicle's rated capacity. Even though these "local towing laws" contradict the "Dealers" - whoever they are.

Then the statement says that these (same?) "local towing laws" dictate that the van should NOT exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle.

I do realise that the total confusion, or perhaps misrepresentation, of MASS vs WEIGHT is that statement has muddied the waters. 

Perhaps it would be clearer if you could provide a link to the publication that statement is extracted from.

It would even be more informative if you were able to provide a link to these so-called "local towing laws" ... what are these?

Cheers - sorry if this is sort of like ping pong - John

 

 

montie wrote:

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Ok let's go back to basics here with some explanations.

ATM is a rating set by the van manufacturer and the measured weight of the unattached van must not exceed this rating.

Towing Capacity is a rating set by the tug manufacturer and must not be exceeded by the the lessor of the measured weight of the van or the rated ATM.
Australian towing laws allow a tug to tow a van with a rated ATM greater than the tow capacity provided the measured weight of the van does not exceed the said tow capacity.The laws are set around actual weights rather than ratings.(read Peter's post earlier)
Having said that, being legal is not always practical or safe. The industry generally recommends that the vehicle tow capacity should be equal to or ideally greater than the van rated ATM.

GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) is a rating set by the vehicle manufacturer and the fully laden measured weight of the tug (including ball transfer) must not exceed this rating. From a safety perspective it is advisable that the tug GVM exceed the van ATM by approx 20%.

GCM (Gross Combination Mass) is a rating set by the vehicle manufacturer and the measured weight of the tug and van attached must not exceed this rating.

Tow Ball Rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer (although some van builders are now setting a max ball rating).The measured ball weight must not exceed either of these ratings.

Montie

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Gday...

Agree 100% Montie .... as you said, we are "on the same page".

It is clarification of the statement you had quoted that has my mind confused ..... 

You haven't answered my question/s above about the statement you quoted ... refer to my earlier post ... ie

............what on earth is the meaning of the statement you have (I assume) quoted.

Firstly it states that "local towing laws' (whatever they are ) do allow the ATM to exceed the vehicle's rated capacity. Even though these "local towing laws" contradict the "Dealers" - whoever they are.

Then the statement says that these (same?) "local towing laws" dictate that the van should NOT exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle.

I do realise that (that statement you have quoted creates) the total confusion, or perhaps misrepresentation, of MASS vs WEIGHT is that statement has muddied the waters. 

Perhaps it would be clearer if you could provide a link to the publication that statement is extracted from.

It would even be more informative if you were able to provide a link to these so-called "local towing laws" ... what are these?

Cheers - John

Gday...

Let's just let it go then I guess. 

I still do not know what these "local towing laws" are that you, or actually that statement you quoted, refer to. You last response only says Australian Towing Laws - so are there other "local" towing laws - what does "local" mean and who formulates such "local" laws?

I still see that that statement you quoted is a contradiction within itself. I will just ignore it as a nonsense.

I cannot agree that dealers are a "misguided" group ... and I certainly would expect them to maintain a level of inventory to enable them to service the vanning public ... and most definitely to profit from that activity.

Cheers - John

montie wrote:

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John,

 Australian towing laws are not a "nonsense", rather they are enforced by the local authorities (local authorities are not "local laws") such as Dept of Tpt and police in various states hence the term "local". (I agree with these 'departments/authorities' being 'local' if a STATE govt dept is "local" - but they are not LAWS they are authorities enforcing Australia-wide laws)

If you are pulled over by one of these "local "authorities (These 'authorities' are not enforcing "local laws" they are enforcing Australia-wide laws) you will be deemed overweight and illegal if: a) The measured weight of the unattached van exceeds the rated ATM or b) the measured weight of the unattached van exceeds the vehicle tow capacity even if it is below the rated ATM. (at no time have I disagreed with this)

You will also be deemed overweight and illegal if the combined measured weight of your rig exceeds the vehicle rated GCM or if the measured ball weight exceeds either van or vehicle ratings. Also the tug rated GVM must not be exceeded. (GEEZ ... when have I disagreed with this )

(carefully re-read your statement (or a statement you have quoted from some other source) again. It is contradictory - therefore given you cannot explain why it is not .. then it is a nonsense)

As dealers we would never recommend that the van rated ATM ever exceed the vehicle rated tow capacity, even though local towing laws in some circumstances allow it.

Local towing laws dictate that the actual measured weight of the van should not exceed the lessor of towing capacity or the rated ATM.

Montie

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 Gday...

Cheers and stay well - John

I agree, towing laws are NOT difficult to understand, but dealers are in general (not all) totally ignorant as to the towing laws. Most of them are little more reliable than used car salesmen and often have no idea what the weight acronyms mean. They usually go to their PC and look up the makers specs and spout off nonesense.

Many a dealer has told me that I am breaking the law because I tow a 16' Jayco which has a 1080 Tare and a ATM of 1380, with a Camry that has a maximum towing limit of 1200. Total nonesnse of course.

The trailers actual static weight over a weighbridge is what Mr Plod looks at, not what I 'could' load up the van with should I want to. If I keep the van light under 1200 with just clothes and potsnpans and load up the boot of the Camry with the heavy stuff I am not breaking the law.

In another simple example. In 1987 I had built a VERY heavy duty 6x4 trailer that IS rated to carry a 2000kg load. The tare of this trailer is 280kg and is unbraked (didn't need brakes pre 1989). In Victoria this does not need to be registered if the towing vehicle is wider but some states have a 750kg limit requiring brakes.
This can legally be towed by a bubble car with a 500kg towing limit, so long as the load I put in it when added to the tare does not exceed the tow vehicles' limits as specified by the manufacturer (in this example up to a 220kg load).
In other words, if I haven't exceeded the trailers limits (ATM), the ATM is irrelavent if one doesn't exceed the towing vehicles limits.

Montie, being as how we have no desire to purchase an overpriced fuel thirsty tug, we are quite happy with our Camry. It provides up to 500km per 70L tank whilst towing and 700km+ when free, in superiour quiet and comfort and they only cost $28K drive away no more to pay.

Should we wish to throw fuel efficiency out the window and put the pedal to the metal (sometimes you do), we have way more power from our sedan than any diesel ute or 4WD we've tested with our van on the back. Yep, we take our van on the test drives. Why wouldn't you?. We inform the dealers ahead of time that the test vehicle must be fitted with a suitably rated tow bar and that we are going to hitch up our van for the test because that is what it would be primarily used for.
Our opinions are that quite frankly, ute and 4WD technology is decades behind sedan levels, and to be honest, there are very few places we can't go (and haven't gone) these days in an ordinary 2WD front wheel drive car. Dirt roads pose no problems to the modern car and clearance and traction is the only issue if we want to go severe off-road rock hopping or sand driving.

We had Pedders replace the standard Camry rear struts and springs with heavy duty ones at an $800 cost and they offered to have had the car re-rated for a heavier load but this would have required replacing the OEM Toyota tow bar, and quite frankly we didn't need to with our current 20 year old 16' Jayco Westport van. We also had quality shocks fitted to the Jayco to provide better handling and stability for the OEM leaf spring setup. Tracks perfect with zero sway.

Sure, modern vans have all those wonderful mod-cons but they come at a massive cost, weight, and all that extra weight costs money to pull and shakes itseft to bits on corrogated roads requiring even heavier duty construction for the interior, chassis and suspension, which adds even more weight.
Keep it light and you don't need to build it heavy duty because it floats over the top. I doubt these days you could even find a 'new' van that only weighed a ton, unless you had one custom made.

The Camry payload after deducting the down-load weight on the tow ball and myself and swmbo still allows over an additional 500kg to be loaded in the car. Most folks pack way too much in their van that they never use. With the cavernous Camry boot we load up half a dozen stackable plastic bins with lids, filled with all those heavy items like the weeks of tinned food swmbo insists we take (just in case), clobber you never wear (just in case), tools, chainsaw, jerry cans of fuel, etc, etc, you know, all that stuff you take, just in case. 150kg+ of sh!t I hardly ever use (other than the chainsaw for firewood), but it goes with us because swmbo says, JUST IN CASE!

Do I need to carry 300kg in the van? Nope.
All our crockery is lightweight Correlle and with the pots n pans and electrical things weighs 16kg. Clothing adds another 15kg. Water tank full adds another 80kg and there is approx 10kg of food in the fridge.

I highly recommend every nomad have their rig put over a weighbridge. You may find that you can get it free at your local council rubbish tip. I think many would be surprised at the fact they may actually be exceeding their vans load rating if not their tugs rating.
I did mine at our ribbish tip for free. Commercial trucks from all over Melbourne come to our local tip (Werribee) and pay for disposal based on weight so I guess they must be fairly accurate and calibrated regularly. The lady at the window said they were +/- 20kg accuracy and that I could pay $20 for a computer printout certificate if I needed it for VicRoads registration. They were too busy to allow me to unhitch on the bridge so I got the combined weight and then pulled off to an apron area, unhitched the van and then ran the car back over the bridge. Deducting one from the other showed the weighbride test with our standard setup right on 1200kg. If what I load up in the car was put in the van I would well and truely exceed the vans 300kg load rating.

Hi Folks,

I'm looking for a small second hand pop top and I have an Outlander rated to pull 1500kg.  Some of the pop tops have been Tare 950kg Atm 1350kg ranging upto 1500kg Atm.  We know the need to travel as light as possible.  I don't want to have to get a bigger car.

Does anybody have experience with a tow vehicle of 1500kg capacity please?

Also, in the past I towed a very light wind up camper with a Camry. After driving the camper home when I first picked it up, I had upgraded springs fitted to the Camry which made a positive difference to the performance of the rig and also the performance of the car without the camper.

Any ideas will be gratefully received.