We have written earlier about having a solar autonomous 5h wheel: 11 m long with 1420 W of solar and 9 kW-hrs of LFP.
We just returned from 14 weeks in Mexico and realize that we need a small adjunct for our travels. There are a lot of places that we should like to visit in Mexico, Beliz, and Guatemala, as well as US, Canada and Alaska that would be a lot smaller (we might get in with an 11 m long 5th wheel but we might not get out - nearly happened to us in San Miguel del Allende in Mexico)
So we are looking at used Roadtreks (new ones are 4 to 6 times our planned budget). Roadtrek is selling new RVs (6 m long) with 5, 10 and 20 kW-hr LFP battery suites. 20 kW-nrs is over 500 pounds. We looked at a used Pleasureway yesterday and it came with a 3 kW-hr LFP baattery.
So the US (in this case Canada since that is where most of the upscale Class Bs are manufacured) is going to LFP.
But they only have 200 or 300 W of solar on that Roadtrek. I think the idea is that you charge up before traveling and try to augment charge with solar and a small generator.
You need more solar over there than here. We get higher radiation levels here than the northern hemisphere at the same latitudes. They travel to much higher latitudes over there as well. Hobart is much the same latitude as Chicago. No one here goes much further south here but much of the USA and all of Canada is north of Chicago.
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PeterD Nissan Navara D23 diesel auto, Spaceland pop-top Retired radio and electronics technician. NSW Central Coast.
In the Mountain West of the US (Northern NM, CO, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, etc), much of the boondocking (free camping, whatever) is above 2 km elevation and we have spent a lot of time above 3 km. The insolation is much greater at these elevations and we have gotten up to 1480 W at MPPT and about 1200 W into battery bank. There are losses at each intersection.
We have "bought" (have the cashier's check) a used Roadtrek 190 and fly to Phoenix tomorrow (from Albuquerque) to pick it up, get 2 to 3 hours training on the electrical/propane/etc compnents and drive back tomorrow afternoon (more or less) as it is about 400 miles (700 km) to Albuquerque and another 160 miles (300 km) to our son's place above Las Vegas, NM at 7600' where it just snowed 10" (25 cm or so). Son will check out the power requirements and design/fabricate solar and LFP requirements. It looks like it might handle 200 to 500 W and need about 3 to 5 kW-hr of LFP. We have been quite happy with the Manzanita Micro battteries (each made up of 4 x CALB cells) but he is looking into some other fabricators at this time. Need to find out what will fit on the roof and what size(s) of panels to use. Back of van will probably take a 300 W panel (54" x 39") and then others at the front. Then leave for Labrador and Newfoundland in mid-June. The Trans-Labrador has about 600 km of gravel - and we plan to drive that at 70 km/h or less - and hpe that the Canadian Nationa Bird, the Black Fly, is not out in force (you can barely see them, the bites leave you bleeding and the sores last for weeks).
Reed and Elaine
In the Mountain West of the US (Northern NM, CO, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, etc), much of the boondocking (free camping, whatever) is above 2 km elevation and we have spent a lot of time above 3 km. The insolation is much greater at these elevations and we have gotten up to 1480 W at MPPT and about 1200 W into battery bank. There are losses at each intersection.
We have "bought" (have the cashier's check) a used Roadtrek 190 and fly to Phoenix tomorrow (from Albuquerque) to pick it up, get 2 to 3 hours training on the electrical/propane/etc compnents and drive back tomorrow afternoon (more or less) as it is about 400 miles (700 km) to Albuquerque and another 160 miles (300 km) to our son's place above Las Vegas, NM at 7600' where it just snowed 10" (25 cm or so). Son will check out the power requirements and design/fabricate solar and LFP requirements. It looks like it might handle 200 to 500 W and need about 3 to 5 kW-hr of LFP. We have been quite happy with the Manzanita Micro battteries (each made up of 4 x CALB cells) but he is looking into some other fabricators at this time. Need to find out what will fit on the roof and what size(s) of panels to use. Back of van will probably take a 300 W panel (54" x 39") and then others at the front. Then leave for Labrador and Newfoundland in mid-June. The Trans-Labrador has about 600 km of gravel - and we plan to drive that at 70 km/h or less - and hpe that the Canadian Nationa Bird, the Black Fly, is not out in force (you can barely see them, the bites leave you bleeding and the sores last for weeks).
Reed and Elaine
Bought the Roadtrek and son is now working out how to place panels and batteries. Looks like one x 300 W (64" x 40") and maybe one one x 100 W, and 2 x 2.16 kW- (12 V nominal) LFP CALB battery (each being 4 x CALB cells). We have been looking at other vendors and fabricators and have found none that have the price and packaging of Manzanita in USA. There seem to be a few fabricators in OZ that are producing smaller batteries that would fit in the two battery compartments in a roadtrek (13" x 8." x 9.5") but none in USA that have 100 amp-hours (12 V) or more storage. AC and microwave require a lot less power than in our 34 (11 m or so) 5th wheel. So we can go with a 1.5 kW-PSWI instread of the 4.5 kW- PSWI in 5th wheel.
Wow, sure is a lot less storage in a Roadtrek (by an order of magnitude it would seem) that a 5th wheel with about 4000 pounds (1800 kg) of storage.
Son has looked at Roadtrek and has ordered the battery chargers, inverters, etc. Will have 315 W panel on rear of vehicle and a 100 W panel on front. This will require two separate controllers to set up a 12 V (nominal) battery system. LFP fabricators have changed a bit in the three years since he put together our current system (which we shall continue using since Roadtrek is for trips to Labrador, Alaska and Mexico and 10 m 5th wheel is for boondocking around the western US and just living in). Plan is for 3.0 to 4.0 kW-hrs of LFP. Most RV'ers here use Lithicon or Starlite and we have been happy with Manzanita Micro (which builds primarily EV world). But there are a few new fabricators about. Should be done in 3 to 4 weeks.
Reed and Elaine
A little bit "off topic" but could not help making a comment on your activities. I find a lot of Australians (who have never been there ) think that USA is not a nice place to visit. I consider it a travellers "dreamland". USA/Canada are the easiest,cheapest most beautiful and interesting traveller friendly areas anyone could ever wish to tour through. Excellent country roads, friendly helpful people and really amazing scenery. RV 'ers are really well catered for everywhere. My wife and I hired a car and travelled 25,000 kms. over 9 weeks in USA/Canada using " Motel 6" and "Super 8" motels (clean ,cheap ,convenient ) and the only "booking ahead " we did was our Flight home. How easy and stress free is that! Will be returning in the near future to see more. We can compare travel experiences of each country as we have just completed a 22,000 km trip around Australia with our Fifth Wheeler. Enjoy your travels......
We should love to caravan in Australia and New Zealand but there is just to much to see in North America: USA, Canada, and Mexico. The roads are good, fuel is cheap and you can boondock (free camp) almost anywhere in the western US and Alaska. We boondock 80% of the time (and mootchdock most of the rest - all three of our kids have a place on their property for us to set up). We have had Moose fight within 25 meters of our rig (as noted we are solar autonomous and no noise from generator); Elk, Deer, and Coyote walk within 5 meters of the rig etc. Have noted that current plan is to spend 3-4 months going through Canada this summer with main interest being two months in Newfoundland and Labrador. Probably go back to southern Mexico and Belize for winter and then British Columbia next summer with main interest in going to Haida Gwaii (formerly Queen Charlotte Island).
Reed and Elaine
I know what you mean , USA/ Canada (we have not been deep into Mexico ) really is a travellers dream and can all be experienced without the expense and "time wasteing " of travelling in groups .
Travel safe and please keep us all informed, from time to time ,of your experiences....
We have never traveled in groups but we did meet a group of six both in Yucatan and San Miguel del Allende that spent four months together and had a great time together. The problem with six moderate to large rigs was that they sometimes had trouble finding a place to stay. Baja California or the west coast of Mexico are good starts to travel in Mexico. There are a lot of folks from USA and Canada that travel there. By the time you get to Yucatan, the Canadians outnumber Gringos about 4 to 1 and there are even more Germans, Swiss, and French traveling. Most of these are Overlanders headed to or from Argentina/Chile.
Back on my original topic, LFP seems to be in wider usage in Australia than US. Son was looking at LFP packaging and there were smaller units for sale in Australia that would fit into the battery spaces on the Roadtrek. Cary found some 100 amp-hr (12 V) or 1.2 kW-hr systems that might fit. But we have decided that since they are in compartments that open to the outside, they might get solar-loaded to 120 to 140 F, which can lead to cell deterioration. Plan is now to place the batteries under the bed at the rear of the Roadtrek. Space is a premium on these caravans since all space is being used. Have to get the 2.5 kW or so PSWI, the two controllers (one for 315 W and the other for the 100 W panel). Elaine has gotten used to having the hot pad every night and will need the batteries and inverter for this (hot pad is only about 40 to 60 W). The Roadtrek does have a 2.8 kW Onan generator (only has 46 hours on a 14 year old vehicle) which is quite sufficient for air conditioning (probably will not have the solar/battery capability to run the A/C but will try it). Had to read the manual. Push "Off" first to prime the motor and then "Start".
Reed and Elaine
Have been reading the Class B fora on solar and LFP batteries. Some of these convertivans go for $200K US. There are space limitations on solar but, as noted in previous post, they can have 5 kW-hrs to 20 kW-hrs of LFP. Roadtrek and others make electronic vans, that is, with no propane. They have a secondary alternator that is used to charge the battery suite. Some have automatic starting of the vehicle engine to recharge the batteries if they run low. I can just imagine someone walking by and noting that the engine is running with no one about - one $200K vehicle gone joy-riding. Not sure how they heat the van when it is cold other than running the vehicle heater.
Reed and Elaine
Hi Reed great to see your still enjoying your travels.
It is a bit confusing for people here to convert AH into KwH so I did a spreadsheet to convert to AH's but decided against posting it as I might be a little out and the electric police will jump on me. The discussion on batteries always causes heat discussions so will leave it to someone else to put their neck in the noose.
KwH's depends on the voltage used and how far you wish to drain the battery and nasty Mr Peuket comes in here as well to compkicate the matter. To fully drain a battery can greatly shorten its live so here we suggest 50% for AGM and 80% for LiFePo4's. Do you know where these suggested cut offs are in the American calculations are to work out the Wah so the members here can get a comparison to their rigs.
An AGM can start at 13.6 or higher and at the 100% at 5A it would be down in the 10v range and not many here prefer to get their batteries that low. With LiFePo4 the full is about 13.8 and the 80% is still in the 13v range so different calculations. This always causes problems so best to give your understanding and we leave it at that.
I feel some think your battery capacity is way beyond the capacity here in Aus but we have many in our group that carry more than you and my bus is about in the middle of your example using my un educated calculation.
Regards
Brian
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11 Mtr house Boat based at Mannum hoping to travel up the Murray as far as I can get then drift back again
If you want to see an impressive LFP system
Look up "RV Chief Prevost " at youtube
He installed an Victron Energie 24 volt system into his bus, worth to have a look
Did 3 1/2 weeks in Labrador and are now doing 5 to 6 weeks in Newfoundland. It is quite beautiful. Left the fridge on DC until last night and were down to 82% SOC so we ran the generator for about an hour since we thought it might rain all day (after three days of brilliant sunshine) - and then the sun came out for four hours. Have to exercise the geneator for an hour every month and it was time to do it anyway. This is the second time we have run the generator and the last time was 32 days ago.
Most US RV systems use 12 V battery suites and I think Oz uses 24 V - and then folks get their 6 V battery Amp-hour and 12 V battery Amp-hour values confused i.e. they think a 100 amp-hr 6 V battery has the same energy storage as a 100 amp-hr 12 V battery. Watts are just volts x amps so it is fairly simple. Thus we have 360 amp-hours at 12 V in our Roadtrek or 4.3 kW-hours.
New Roadtreks can be purchased with 5 kW-hr, 10 kW-hr, and 20 kW-hr LFP systems. I think the idea is that one just charges with line power and takes off for a few weeks. This is very pricey.
Hi Reed and Elane, haven't chatted for quite a while. In Aust most full systems are built up as one battery, multiple say 100Ah or 200Ah cells nom. 3.2v in parallel to build the capacity, then 4 sets in series to build the voltage to 12.8v nom. Useage range is from 3.4v down to 2.8v min but the aim is not to drop below 100% of the advertised capacity, depending on the load that can still be up around 13v even though the full 100% of the capacity has been used, lead acid battery people have trouble getting their head around that one, there is a difference between flat and using 100% of the advertised capacity.
For full time use the average is between 400Ah and 600Ah @ 12v nom. so at an average voltage of 12.8v that would be 5,000Wh to 7,600Wh and 1kW of solar is not uncommon these days. Most do run their air con from the solar/batteries and inverter type split system unit the same as used in houses over here are becoming much more common as they use a fraction of the power the old roof top rattlers did. Many are moving to full electric over here as well, no reliance on gas refills which can be very expensive in some areas over here.... if you can find it of course.
I'd love to travel through the US, Canada and Mexico but now I've started a lithium/solar retro fit business I can't see me having any chance to get away for quite some time, the interest level is quite incredible so the move from lead acid to lithium is certainly starting to ramp up over here.
Sadly most main stream manufacturers over here are barely up to speed with lead acid and solar so not much hope of them adapting to lithium any time soon, those who offer it are really just subletting the job to another installer company, but the average caravan wiring over here is pitiful so yet to see how that plays out in the long run.
T1 Terry
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Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
Hi Reed and Elaine, Terry, Brian, and All. I just crawled out of my cave after hibernating all winter (basically I have been to damned busy at work to worry about anything else).
Just reading through your thread, you are going to miss the space of your big rig, but then again getting to those out of the way places will make it all worthwhile.
I am going to get our van out of storage for the summer, and do a couple of small trips, basically whatever time I can escape from work.
I am not sure if you have bought your batteries yet, but just in case you have not, there is a new kid on the block. A company called Redflow is now producing a couple of domestic sized zinc bromide flow cells. Thes eunits are being marketed as a better alternative to the lithium power walls, they are however more expensive compared to a Tesla V1, thus they will be significantly more expensive than a V2.
Certainly a different technology, with some real positives and I suspect negatives.
The positives, it can be discharged to zero, and left that way without harm. The negatives, first of all cost, then I suspect there may be mechanical pumps so things are going to wear out and need to be replaced. This is not new technology, what is new is seeing it in a domestic sized unit.
Hi Plendo, long time no read. I looked very closely into the RedFlow batteries after an incredibly slick sales promotion in the guise of a technical presentation at an electric vehicle seminar I attended.
1) Not suitable for anything that moves, the unit or operation can not handle being swayed around, so stationary application only.
2) They are huge, they claim to similar to a house outside air con unit, must be a huge house, from memory it weighs around 200Kg so you can better picture the size
3)They must be completely discharged to zero volts every 4 days I seem to remember was the time frame, so as a reliable energy storage reuse device it would require 2 units programmed to strip/discharge at different times. If the full strip/discharge is not done, the zinc plates the layers and the battery is destroyed.
4) The round trip efficiency is poor when you add in the stripping/discharge required every 4 days and the fact that pumps must be powered to make the cell do anything, not all the stored energy can be recovered during this stripping process so that lost energy from the end use point of view must be taken into account.
The end scenario as I see it, still not a viable option to lithium, to inefficient, to bulky, limited use in regards to environment, they can't handle the level of heat that lithium can handle, they just shut down, really an old technology that didn't work back then in a shiny new jacket.
If anyone lives in the Adelaide area, the old bus depot complex which sort of one of those alternative style hang outs, has one out the back with a big solar array on the roof. As luck or fate would have it, when South Australia had its black out, the unit was off line, not certain if it was during a maintenance strip/discharge cycle or if it was actually away having a freshen up/facelift/fix... the maintenance person was a tad vague just which it was, but it didn't keep the complex going through the blackout anyway
T1 Terry
__________________
You can lead a head to knowledge but you can't make it think. One day I'll know it all, but till then, I'll keep learning.
Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
The Solar Roadtrek worked well on the trip. We found Newfoundland to be about the most beautiful and friendliest place we have ever visited. The Provencial Law is that one can spend (boondock/free camp etc) for 48 hours on any Crown or Common Lands unless otherwise posted. We spent four nights in small fishing villages that belong in a coffee table book of the 1930s. Fisherman in one village knocked on door at 8:30 am and asked if we should like just caught fileted cod. One in another village asked if we liked crab. "uh, is this a trick question?" And he walked over to his home across the street from the wharf and brought us a Mason jar filled with frozen crab "we make these up for our friends and family." He had an orphaned baby Beluga living under his boat. The Beluga would head out at night to hunt and refused offers of fish from the fishermen. The Beluga loved to have people get in water and loved to snuggle and be touched. Mike Dalton (the fisherman and this was on the Irish Loop on the Avalon Peninsula) told us to park next to the wharf so we could get good photos of the Beluga the following morning.
The solar and LFP suite worked as we wished. We plugged in once in 12 weeks (it was 105 in South Dakota on our way to Canada) and ran the generator once a month for 45 minutes as suggested in the manual.
We are currently at old son's place in mountains of northern New Mexico (7800' aka 2400 m) for Thanksgiving. Daughter is coming from Las Cruces, younger son and family are coming from Fort Collins, a nephew (just finished PhD in physics in conjunction with U. of Sydney and U. of Portland) from Portland, etc.
We are in process of repacking for three months in southern Mexico (have to leave before it gets hot in March - it was 106 F (41 C) ar Merida when we were headed north this last April. We are using the Roadtrek instead of 5th wheel since there are a lot of places in Yucatan and elsewhere where you probably cannot get a 34' 5th wheel in - and if you do, you will not get out. Will come up west coast of Mexico. We will be forced to use RV parks in most of Mexico. Son did set both systems to operate off AC (120 V in US, Canada and Mexico). The line voltage can easily vary between 60 and 160 V in some of these places and this can wipe out electrical equipment. Blew a microwave in Baja California and another in Yucatan which were non-repairable. So he has the system set to:
1. Run directly off line if the power is clean
2. Run through a battery charger to LFP suite and then through inverter for AC.
Return from Mexico (and possible Belize and Guatemala) nnd spend time with family and boondock in desert with 5th wheel and then head to British Columbia and Queen Charlotte Island (now Haida Gwai). It is one of the few places without Grizzlies but they do have the Spirit Bear, a white furred Black Bear. So we continue our "Goldilocks existence" as in "not to hot and not to cold, just right."
Reed and Elaine
As noted, we are at older son's place and asked him about the battery charger. He said it will work from about 60 V to 250 V AC. He used this top of the line battery charger since he was not sure if all of Mexico and Central America use 110V AC (Mexico uses 127 V). Central America uses 110 to 120 V AC. So our system could be shipped to Australia and be used without worrying about line voltage. Would have to worry about stepping outside of the cargo doors - right into traffic.
We met a couple that plugged into a mount at an RV park near Oaxaca, Mexico. They had screwed up at the RV Park and the voltage was 220 or 240. Everything was very bright for a few milliseconds and then the magic smoke came out and all of their electronics were fried.
Son's place will look like a Gypsy encampment. We will have our two RVs, his RV, and the cars for his kids, our kids, our cousins, our in-laws and their in-laws. And then there will be two or three students from the United World College (Honduras, India, and perhaps West VIrginia). Our-in-laws and their son/grandson will use our 5th wheel, we will use the Roadtrek. Daughter, grandaughter, and niece may use their RV - and then we have to figure where the rest go. Our son's in-laws will have his sister-in-law's and parents in-laws places to stay. This is near the end of the road at 7800' (2500 m or so) that leadds to the Pecos Wilderness area. Their only neighbors for several miles are the parents-in-law and sister-in-law and husband. The backdrop is Hermit's Peak (10,267 ft or3,129 m) which was the backdrop to a couple of movies. There is snow on the peaks now. They go up to 13,108 ft (3,995 m) at Truchas Peak, the second highest peak in NM (since the SOB's in Colorado got four 14,000 peaks in the 1870s; we don't hold grudges, we feed and fertilize them}.
"much" ???
