Hi Rockylizard,
For what it's worth, I think the information you provided in incredibly valuable - I am absolutely certain that few people who look at upgrading the GVM on their vehicle realise the implications this has for the mass they can tow, should they choose to load their vehicles in such a way as to make use of the increased GVM.

Kudos to you for attempting to highlight it - public services are rarely acknowledged.

Seems to me Macka, that what Rockylizard posted was a description (including examples to help demonstrate the concept) of what is legally permissible, re: GVM and GCM.

The text does not in any way support your personal view regarding "trlr weights being a min of 400kg in favour of tug", nor does it support your claims that "Utes having safe limits around 2.5ton to tow". Seems you might be seeing things that aren't there....

Didn't say it did.
But MOST other country's seem to agree. Normally around 20\25%.

Not maybe MY specific figure.
That's just MY feeling for safety. I try to keep nearer 6\700kg's.

And if you. Take a look at your. or any ute's figures.
Load it. Fitted bullbar etc as most are.
Then see what it can LEGALLY tow. with what drawbar weights.
I won't be too far off the mark I think you'll find.
To stay LEGAL in eyes of law and insurance.

I'm old school. I look at safety side over. what can I get away with side.
Or the dumb ones. (don't know)

People are just starting (though not wanting to) to realise such.
and the law is catching up. Finally.

A GVM upgrade to the tug does not increase the GCM or towing capacity.

So basically the additional payload available may not be totally usable if the new upgraded combination of GVM plus ATM exceeds the rated GCM.
This is very evident with many dual cab tugs claiming a tow capacity of 3.5 tonnes which when the combination is loaded to capacity assuming an ATM of 3.5 tonnes puts the rig considerably over the GCM rating.

In addition, it is advisable, (but not a legal requirement) that the loaded tug exceed the van loaded weight by at least 10%.
In other words tug GVM exceeds van ATM.
Being legal doesn't always mean it's safe!
Montie

-- Edited by montie on Wednesday 11th of January 2017 07:59:06 PM

Monty,

You are correct of course, re: the GVM upgrade versus GCM issue. Not sure if you are aware of where this thread originated from however - there was discussion about GCM upgrades (which are available) and it sort of morphed into another thread on the subject... Rockylizard started this thread with the information posted to ensure that it wasn't lost in another thread - that GVM upgrade does not equate to increased GCM. (Increasing the GCM being a completely different beast...)

Anyway, just letting you know in case you were unaware.

You too my friend.

Its an interesting paradigm isn't it - the GCM issue being experienced by dual cab owners. I imagine it would cause you some unnecessary grief with advising those in the market for a new van.

OR. Small Isuzu. and other Japanese tray, dual cab TRUCKS.

Which are often cheaper, or same pricing
As the current Toyota's\Patrols and fancy utes.

Plus THEY can normally carry a couple of tons
While towing up to around 4 ton.

Plus. Plus.
They LIKE a load on rears.
With long and WIDE wheelbases.


ANTS.

The Toyota's are around $100\120k new. Patrols too nowadays.
Utes up in mid\late $50k's.
Trucks come in at that pricing.
Plus give more than sufficient leeway in capacity and safety.

if you can afford to buy a 100plus LARGE van sometimes well over.
You can afford to buy the proper tow vehicle for it.

If not.

You shouldn't be buying that van at all.
Even if only out of respect for the safety of others on the road.

As I've said b4 and will keep doing so.

UTES. Loaded.

None are SAFE with much more than around 2.5 ton behind them. MAX.
Mine rated 3 ton, tows just under 2 ton MAX.(1.87 ton) plated van.

You want to tow anything heavier.
Buy the proper vehicles. Not Convenient ones.

One problem with these latest utes. Is a lot of owners fit winches. Bars. etc etc.
Then never use them. (mostly)
ALL for show. "LOOK at MYYYY truck"

If they took most of it off.
they would have another 100ish Kg's to play with load wise.

I have a stainless "Nudge bar"with side wings.
I can lift with left hand alone. NO winch. Carries Arials and light bar.

We Generally tugs not dirt veh's.
That goes for 85\90% of us here.

Buy an old Toyota . Mitzi, or Disco for dirt play.

-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 12th of January 2017 11:24:43 AM

Your smack on there Anthony.
But new Patrols are same price as New Tojo's.
And same consumption on tests with Petrol v Diesel.

Those US Utes are magic.
I drive mates 3500 dual rears with 42 ft 5ther on back when over there.
That's a NICE rig.

BUt. I tend to advocate the Japanese trucks over those exxy things.
In this country.
Dual cab. Not so flash as Utes etc, but not bad.

WITH plenty of leeway with both weights and tow capacity.
AND fuel consumption.

My van back in '2000. was $77k on road. GU Patrol cost me $54\56 from memory 3 ltr.
Prices haven't changed much really, in those sizes.
but van sizes tended to rise. along with weights

Nobody, Really. Needs a van much more than 21ft outside. (19ft 4in, inside)
mine was. and 2245kg empty. 2.8ish loaded.
we lived in that one three months and more a yr. for 14 plus yrs.
Never much more than 1\2 full. with 3.2 ton susp under it.

We usually went around 3.3t tug. with tinny on roof and 2.5 -2,9ish for van, max.

Empty tanks mostly. and usually around 350 to 600 kg under limits.
Feels safe and controlling itself.

People, specially the touristy ones. (Annual and otherwise.)
Always take too much and consequently use heaps more fuel, wear tyres more, Doing so.

They'll learn.

You never see seasoned travellers with much more than an 18ft to 19ft 6 van max.
Some do but not many. They've learnt.

All they doing is spending more money for same trip otherwise.

Back to masking for some more new cork tiles on floor in van.

Look plain. But clean. WARM and soft under feet. Not like cold hard lino.
Plus washable.

Ants.

The NEW model V8 Petrol only Patrol??.

Oh OK.
I see they dropped pricing from the mid,upper $85k's to around $69.
More sensible.

Yep. Most of us travellers are older sans kids. But a lot still drag them around.

Out of interest. My first two kids back in Mid .65 and Dec '66. were born, and raised in a caravan.
(Third one born Just after new house was completed).
Dragging round the motorways and Pipeline construction sites.

So I do know a little bit about kids and vans. in more extreme conditions. UK Winters,
and 20 miles in on muddy easements with no tyred access. Tracks only.

LandRover and dozers only. Always carried a chain.

People with large vans. Whether a Necessity or Want.
Should have tugs to suit. Safety and competence wise.

And at least nowadays you have these annexes to double size of van with visitors and kids.
We just had inside van walls
Mine used to love getting the tents out for individual Privacy.

Anway. Subject,

The big Patrols and Tojo's though having the power. Do not have the Physical size..
To tow those bigger vans safely.

Is yours inside ALL it's weight limits, on all axles. they vary
and are specified on Patrol book Or were on prev model.

Individual veh weights, and combined veh weights.
With towbar weight reduction limits..

You'd be one of the few nowadays if so.

I could get inside my max Combined, Comfortably.
but needed to shift stuff around a bit if getting stopped.

Patrol got me at 3.3ton. Inside limits. BUT.
If anybody weighed MY drawbar against the book.and weight reductions pertaining to.
I was gone.

It was waaay over ,the 350kg's stamped on compliance plate.
Most rear set suspension vans are. Just the design.
But MUCH better towing stability than centre set suspensions.
Distance from centre of, to towball essentially.

Longer triangle to ball, with shorter rear o'hang to rear of.
to swing you around

Whoops Cat wants his dinner cutting up. Prawns.
That's all he eats, combined with the bicky's.

Hewy54 wrote:

---

Macka, I thought you said 3 posts ago "Last word"

---

Can't help himself. 

Aussie Paul. 

Yes Macka, the 'new' V8 petrol model. And yes, the price drop was the only sensible thing they could do, if they wanted to sell some :)

My vehicle is basically bog standard - I don't see the need for all the bar work and other accoutrements that people fit. Our van 'only' has an ATM of 3212 (after I requested a 200kg increase prior to manufacture). Our total travelling weight is around 6200kg (for the rig) - so ~800 kg UNDER the GCM. Axle weights while laden - never wrote them down when I went to the weigh bridge as I was so far under it wasn't even close.

Just common safety sense in my opinion to know what I am dealing with.