WRONG AC-DC CHARGER SUPPLIED WITH VAN

Snippy · Senior Member

WRONG AC-DC CHARGER SUPPLIED WITH VAN

Bill B · Guru

What sort of charger is it ?

Most chargers have settings for different types of batteries.

Snippy · Senior Member

As per my post "Only for charging wet cell"

Brand MW PB300/360

Bill B · Guru

Is this the charger you have : file:///C:/Users/Neil/Downloads/Battery%20charger%20PB-360-SPEC.pdf

If so the manual states that it is suitable for a sealed lead acid battery, which includes flooded, gel & AGM's.

madaboutled · Guru

Snippy, I THINK I've identified the problem, there's a manual here: https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/1952417Users%20Manual.pdf

You have according to your signature 3 x 105 amp hour batteries, if your charging all of these in parralel you'll have a 315 amp hour system and the charger according to the manual is only capable of charging a 200 amp hour system.

Snippy · Senior Member

Thanks for the replies, this is copied from the manual "1.The charger is only suitable for "lead-acid" batteries." which is also in the manual sent by madaboutled.

Sealed lead acid does NOT include AGM's, which is why chargers that handle both have a switch to select correct battery type.

Even if the charger was capable of charging larger than 200 ah, it is still not for charging AGM which brings me back to my question:
Will this charge have caused, or will it cause damage to my AGM batteries?

Izabarack · Guru

What technology do you think is used in AGM batteries, if not lead and an acid electrolyte?

Iza

madaboutled · Guru

Kevin, as Bill B pointed out an AGM is a Lead Acid Battery. You can see some info here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm

Quote from 1st paragraph: "AGM technology became popular in the early 1980s as a sealed lead acid battery for military aircraft, vehicles and UPS to reduce weight and improve reliability. The sulfuric acid is absorbed by a very fine fiberglass mat, making the battery spill-proof."

Constant undercharging could cause damage, I would suggest you go to a battery place or Auto Electrician and get them to charge up and load test the batteries, they'll soon tell you if they are OK or not.

-- Edited by madaboutled on Sunday 19th of March 2017 03:19:00 PM

-- Edited by madaboutled on Sunday 19th of March 2017 03:19:31 PM

Snippy · Senior Member

madaboutled wrote:
Kevin, as Bill B pointed out an AGM is a Lead Acid Battery. You can see some info here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm
Quote from 1st paragraph: "AGM technology became popular in the early 1980s as a sealed lead acid battery for military aircraft, vehicles and UPS to reduce weight and improve reliability. The sulfuric acid is absorbed by a very fine fiberglass mat, making the battery spill-proof."
Constant undercharging could cause damage, I would suggest you go to a battery place or Auto Electrician and get them to charge up and load test the batteries, they'll soon tell you if they are OK or not.

-- Edited by madaboutled on Sunday 19th of March 2017 03:19:00 PM

-- Edited by madaboutled on Sunday 19th of March 2017 03:19:31 PM

Don't know whether I am the confusor or confusee. blankstare

The external 20 amp 7 stage charger I have has 2 switch positions, Lead acid and AGM/GEL.

I disconnected the charger in question and tried to run the 20ah charger from the genny. Line fuse to + terminal fused so back to the cheapie.

Regardless, the output of the MW charger is clearly inadequate so out it goes.

Most of the electronic junk in this van is hopelessly inadequate for our needs and electrical refit planned for May this year.

Thanks everyone fro taking the time to respond.

Phil C · Guru

Gday snippy.

The reason there is a Lead Acid/ AGM switch is that lead acid use a constant voltage charge where AGM need the steps as previously mentioned to keep them in good nick BOOST, FLOOD, etc from memory. While a lead acid will be fully charged just over 12 volts an AGM is about 25% down from its optimum fully charged voltage at that voltage. While I will stand corrected by better heads than mine I suggest that may be the guts of your issue.

Good luck.

Snippy · Senior Member

Phil C wrote:
Gday snippy.

The reason there is a Lead Acid/ AGM switch is that lead acid use a constant voltage charge where AGM need the steps as previously mentioned to keep them in good nick BOOST, FLOOD, etc from memory. While a lead acid will be fully charged just over 12 volts an AGM is about 25% down from its optimum fully charged voltage at that voltage. While I will stand corrected by better heads than mine I suggest that may be the guts of your issue.

Good luck.

Thanks Phil,

Along the lines of what I was athunkin!

Whatever way you look at it the MW charge is way out of it's league here.

patrol03 · Senior Member

Hi Snippy,you mentioned that your fridge wasn't working properly on 12volt. This is a common problem. Some manufacturers run the fridge off the battery in the van and you charge the battery from your vehicle through an anderson plug and fuse etc using wire of 13.5mmsq..6B&S. Your fridge will operate at maximum efficiency if you wire it directly to your battery and charging system whilst on the road.Change it over to work directly from the vehicle and you won't believe the difference. Your battery in the van should be OK and the on-board charger should bring your battery up to an acceptable charge when stationary in a caravan park without damage.In my Patrol I run my fridge from the start battery, and charge my auxiliary AGM and van AGM through a smart solenoid. Icecream and meat in the fridge freezer are as hard as rocks and the milk is cold in the fridge. Beer and other stuff runs at 3c in the waeco in the back of the vehicle. My alternator is putting out a constant 14.6v and the current varies according to the load. Hope this is of some help to you.

Jaahn · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Gday snippy.

The reason there is a Lead Acid/ AGM switch is that lead acid use a constant voltage charge where AGM need the steps as previously mentioned to keep them in good nick BOOST, FLOOD, etc from memory. While a lead acid will be fully charged just over 12 volts an AGM is about 25% down from its optimum fully charged voltage at that voltage. While I will stand corrected by better heads than mine I suggest that may be the guts of your issue.

Good luck.

Hi Phil C smile

What you have written is generally incorrect and Snippy should ignore it. Please consult a battery site which states the correct voltages and charge styles for the different types. Or go to a battery supplier for direct advice.

I could give some advice but will not, as enough confusion has been given already. Snippy seems to have limited knowledge of batteries so it is not helpful to throw information at him. It would appear that the setup is unsatisfactory and advice from here is not helping him IMHO. hmm

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 19th of March 2017 05:50:42 PM

Izabarack · Guru

Snippy wrote:
Regardless, the output of the MW charger is clearly inadequate so out it goes.
.

How, exactly, did you work that out? Low tech charger, apparently, but still should be capable of charging the batteries.

Iza

kezngaz · Senior Member

In answer to the original question..
Agm batteries are charged at a lower voltage than wet lead acid batteries so, i should think that you have caused no harm with the said charger.
This doesnt mean the batteries are not now faulty due to under charge depending on draw and how low tou have drained them, which in itself can harm the batteries.
Hope this is of help.
Kezngaz.

Snippy · Senior Member

patrol03 wrote:
Hi Snippy,you mentioned that your fridge wasn't working properly on 12volt. This is a common problem. Some manufacturers run the fridge off the battery in the van and you charge the battery from your vehicle through an anderson plug and fuse etc using wire of 13.5mmsq..6B&S. Your fridge will operate at maximum efficiency if you wire it directly to your battery and charging system whilst on the road.Change it over to work directly from the vehicle and you won't believe the difference. Your battery in the van should be OK and the on-board charger should bring your battery up to an acceptable charge when stationary in a caravan park without damage.In my Patrol I run my fridge from the start battery, and charge my auxiliary AGM and van AGM through a smart solenoid. Icecream and meat in the fridge freezer are as hard as rocks and the milk is cold in the fridge. Beer and other stuff runs at 3c in the waeco in the back of the vehicle. My alternator is putting out a constant 14.6v and the current varies according to the load. Hope this is of some help to you.

Hi,

Fridge is hard wired to the batteries and works fine if they are well charged.

When towing the fridge runs directly from the cars alternator.

Snippy · Senior Member

Maximum charge from the MW is 200amp.

Our batteries are 315ah = insufficient charging capacity.

Snippy · Senior Member

Looking for the popcorn now

Izabarack · Guru

Snippy wrote:
Maximum charge from the MW is 200amp.

Our batteries are 315ah = insufficient charging capacity.

The charger output current capability seems to be 20.85 Amps, going by the manual. Where does this max charge of 200amp come from?

A depleted battery bank of a nominal capacity 315 Amp Hours can and will get charged by a charger that is capable of putting out 20 Amps. That is a far from ideal matching of battery bank to charger size or capability, however.

How does the charging go when using your 1000 watt solar array? 1 Kw seems to be much, much more than needed for a 315 Ah battery bank.

Iza

-- Edited by Izabarack on Monday 20th of March 2017 04:57:58 AM

Snippy · Senior Member

Izabarack wrote:
Snippy wrote:
Maximum charge from the MW is 200amp.

Our batteries are 315ah = insufficient charging capacity.
The charger output current capability seems to be 20.85 Amps, going by the manual. Where does this max charge of 200amp come from?
A depleted battery bank of a nominal capacity 315 Amp Hours can and will get charged by a charger that is capable of putting out 20 Amps. That is a far from ideal matching of battery bank to charger size or capability, however.
How does the charging go when using your 1000 watt solar array? 1 Kw seems to be much, much more than needed for a 315 Ah battery bank.
Iza

-- Edited by Izabarack on Monday 20th of March 2017 04:57:58 AM

Solar works fine if we weren't in a bloody jungle!

Don't know which manual you are referring to, but the manual with this says can not charge batts larger than 200ah.

The batts never fully charge, the fully charged indicator does not go green.

Charger is inadequate, end of!

Snippy · Senior Member

Jaahn

"Snippy seems to have limited knowledge of batteries so it is not helpful to throw information at him. "

Where's that come from? You also seem to be implying that I am incapable of handling volumes of information?

Jaahn · Guru

Snippy wrote:
Jaahn
"Snippy seems to have limited knowledge of batteries so it is not helpful to throw information at him. "
Where's that come from? You also seem to be implying that I am incapable of handling volumes of information?

Hi Snippy smile

I did not mean to offend you. But people seem to be throwing lots of good and bad information onto this thread. Hard for anybody to make sense of it. You also seem to have made mistakes in some what you have written about the charger !

So my comment is that the charger seems to be too small for that set of batteries and your usage. It is probably not getting them to fully charged in the time available. Put another way the problem is you are using more that it is putting into the batteries. I cannot judge more than this from my computer keyboard, some real testing on site is required.

Jaahn

Snippy · Senior Member

Jaahn wrote:
Snippy wrote:
Jaahn
"Snippy seems to have limited knowledge of batteries so it is not helpful to throw information at him. "
Where's that come from? You also seem to be implying that I am incapable of handling volumes of information?
Hi Snippy
I did not mean to offend you. But people seem to be throwing lots of good and bad information onto this thread. Hard for anybody to make sense of it. You also seem to have made mistakes in some what you have written about the charger !
So my comment is that the charger seems to be too small for that set of batteries and your usage. It is probably not getting them to fully charged in the time available. Put another way the problem is you are using more that it is putting into the batteries. I cannot judge more than this from my computer keyboard, some real testing on site is required.
Jaahn

Thanks Jaahn, no offence taken.

"So my comment is that the charger seems to be too small for that set of batteries and your usage. It is probably not getting them to fully charged in the time available. Put another way the problem is you are using more that it is putting into the batteries" Great, this is what I have been saying all along.

Cheers

Phil C · Guru

Hi Jayne

Your correction is noted and I apologise to snippy if I have misled him. As I clearly said my knowledge of batteries is limited by time and new technology. However a LA battery is happy being charged at the 20 hour rate constant voltage. These new batts have multi step chargers which I believe (and I may be wrong again) switch from constant voltage/current etc. I agree that the charger he has is not appropriate for the setup.

Hope you are well

Snippy · Senior Member

Happy ending:

Caravan Manufacturer has offered to replace the charger, upgraded at no cost and is sending to us by Express post today.

markf · Senior Member

Snippy wrote:

Q? Will this charger have damaged the AGM batteries.

Unlikely. Good OLD lead acid chemistry batteries are about the most robust battery there is. They'll take an unbelievable amount of mistreatment before they finally cry enough.

The two biggest enemies of any rechargeable battery are under charging and over discharging done on a consistent basis over a long period. Lead acid chemistry will put up with more of that than any other battery chemistry that I'm aware of.

I have a couple of AGM batteries here that are over 15 years old and have been used HEAPS. All I use to charge them is a 14.1v power supply that can provide around 30A which, in line with Ohms Law, drops as full charge approaches. ie. As full charge approaches the internal resistance of the battery and therefore current drawn drops. I believe that the vast majority of "smart" chargers get confused when there are loads connected to the battery whilst charging - fridge, chargers for other stuff (laptops, phones, etc.), TV, etc.

The big take away is that it's very, very unlikely that you've damaged your batteries.

Cheers,

Mark F...

VK3KW/VK3ZMF

Snippy · Senior Member

Thanks Mark

T1 Terry · Guru

Probably too late to help Snippy but might be useful to others reading this topic. The battery capacity rating given by most manufacturers virtually says it can't handle long periods at full output without overheating and damaging the charger. The lead acid only reference is along the same lines as lithium batteries will accept full charger output all the way to 99% plus charged.... not many chargers can handle that sort of treatment.
The next thing is voltage sensing. Good quality chargers have separate voltage sensing wires, cheaper designs measure the voltage as it leaves the charger. Projecta IC range actually run very small voltage sensing cables inside the main cables so they see the voltage at the battery clamps. This can be a catch for young players if they cut the cables shorter, you need to find these little wires as well and make sure they are bared back and also contact the new terminal or the charger just doesn't work.
So, if ever looking for a quality charger wether it be a mains charger or solar regulator, check to see if it has separate voltage sensing available and there isn't a battery capacity limit, this means it was built to a quality rather than a price.

T1 Terry

oldtrack123 · Guru

Snippy wrote:
Maximum charge from the MW is 200amp.

Our batteries are 315ah = insufficient charging capacity.

Snippy

Max recommended battery capacity 200 Amphrs!!!

not max to be fitted!!!

ALL battery chargers are rated in AMPS OUTPUT

If that is a 200 AMP charger, it would be far far bigger than installed in virtually ALL vans & motor homes!!

No matter what size it is, it should still charge your batteries

.But IF your current draw "AMPS'on the batteries is higher than the charging current" AMPS" you will just be pulling the batteries down

IF you read the manual you will also see it has :

[a] adjustable voltage settings to suit battery type

self current limiting to protect itself from excess current

In other words unless you are running your batteries down to a very low state of charge with limited recharging time,IF set correctly it will not harm your batterries BUT may not get them to fully charged in the time available before the next discharge takes place.

IF that is occurring it is quite possible the batteries are ruined !!

Suggest you do a little reading on batteries & chargers so you understand the correct terminolgy.If you do that it WILL help your

self & other to understand what your problem may be

You say you are running your fridge from the van batteries but you have not told us the type of fridge

IF it is a 3 way fridge it could be drawing ALL the available output from the charger with nothing or very little left for battery charging

When not driving ,3ways should be run on 240v or GAS NOT 12V[ unless you have LOTS & LOTS of solar & amphr battery capacity !!!]

Perhaps an instruction book for your model might help??

Apart from that have a good read of T1 post

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 01:06:44 AM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
Snippy wrote:
Jaahn
"Snippy seems to have limited knowledge of batteries so it is not helpful to throw information at him. "
Where's that come from? You also seem to be implying that I am incapable of handling volumes of information?
Hi Snippy
I did not mean to offend you. But people seem to be throwing lots of good and bad information onto this thread. Hard for anybody to make sense of it. You also seem to have made mistakes in some what you have written about the charger !
So my comment is that the charger seems to be too small for that set of batteries and your usage. It is probably not getting them to fully charged in the time available. Put another way the problem is you are using more that it is putting into the batteries. I cannot judge more than this from my computer keyboard, some real testing on site is required.
Jaahn
And DITTO to above