Diesel Fuel/Filters/Foam.

Hetho · Senior Member

Diesel Fuel/Filters/Foam.

kezngaz · Senior Member

Hi Hetho..
I would be interested in hearing the response to this as i see and have experienced soot on the rear of our 200TT.
My understanding is that the soot comes from burnt fuel, so i wouldnt think its soot thats blocking your fuel filter.
As for the fizzing, ive also noticed it varies depending on oil companies.
We shall wait for the experts....
Kezngaz.

JohnR · Senior Member

We have just changed over our 2013 200 Series V8 TT Diesel with a 2016 200 Series.

The 2013 Diesel had 80000 klm on the clock when traded Dec last year with fuel filters changed every service roughly 8/10000 klm.

The good people at Berrima Diesel suggested that with "Common Rail" diesels it is recommended using fuels such as vortex and BP and change the fuel filter on a regular basis when purchasing fuel at different locations.

We are on the road full time and currently in Tasmania and have just had the first service completed on our 2016 Cruiser at 6000klm. (Due to the nature of the towing and having 3 ton of Jayco in tow).

The additional cost is about $130 for the filter. I am more than happy to bear the additional cost keeping in mind what a major contamination issue could cause.

JohnR

Moonraker · Senior Member

Our 200 series gets Caltex vortex diesel 90% of the time, travelled just over 100k had to change the filter at 30k due to warning light coming on. I have since change filter every 15k and keep 2 spares in the car just in case of getting a fill of bad fuel out of town.

The main reason I periodically change the filter is to ensure no restriction to the fuel flow. The fuel is providing cooling to the injectors as well as just a fuel. More fuel is delivered to the injectors than is needed to power the motor the cooling diesel is returned to tank. Any restriction to flow can cause the injectors to overheat and fail, very expensive to replace! That is why the warning light comes on well before you notice poor engine performance. And why I dont fit an after market prefilter.

Cant say that the fuel I use causes any black smoke although I have seen modern diesel vehicles blast out black smoke when they have been driven hard. Australian diesel is said to be of poor quality and not good for european engines particulary. I know that Caltex and BP add cleaning agents and chemicals into the fuel, may be these additives or perhaps the lack of them in some cases is causing black smoke. But more likely a heavy right foot departing from the lights!

macka17 · Guru

Black smoke is usually overfuelling. rich fuel .
Specially if you depart in a cloud of black. or go up hills the same.
Blue smoke is rings (oil)
whitish\grey is usually liquid system.
Evaporation of some thing.

They the BASICS of it.
Rub finger round end tail pipe. Black and sooty.
Could be filters. Chip?
But basically extra fuel going through injectors.

Eventually your tips will get clogged and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s Plus.
with this Common Rail system.
You can't retip these bloody things like the old ones.
I've still got needle files.
Actually used them on the fixed jets on racing bikes.

If chipped. Get it checked.
If not ..
get a fuel Injection service,
you'll get better performance and better economy, (Usually)
Should do around every 100k anyway.

My D-Max chipped. Goes real well.
But rear tube sooty.
When I start driving again I'm disconnecting chip to compare.

OH. and EVERY....... oil\filter change. I do the fuel filter too.
Really CHEAP economy if you pick some crap fuel up somewhere.
$40plus k of vehicle.
Full Synthetic oils and fuel filter. Always.
Tyres at 1\4 wear. NOT the bars
I like grip in the wet. On the bars. You ain't got much of that.

Bagmaker · Senior Member

interesting puzzle Hetho, do you get the same performance or mileage from each fuel?
I will go on a limb and say the 200 V8 -being a fully computer controlled smarty pants diesel- is considering the coles fuel to be not "powerful" enough and thus is injecting more than usual to cope with the demands of your right foot.
This gives a richer mixture and a sooty discharge compared to the fuel with more bang in it.
Considering the mileage from each type of fuel would be the proof

gooba53 · Guru

BP and Caltex do put additives in their fuel to prevent foaming, not sure about Shell.

Had you thought about sending your exact post you wrote here to the oil companies and wait for their response? Shell might not admit they dont put additives in but then you could perhaps understand the foaming from Shell.

markf · Senior Member

Hetho wrote:

However; when filling at Coles Express the filler cuts out at least 12 ltrs frior to full, lots of foaming. I let it settle for a while and do the trickle fill for the last 10 - 12 ltrs. Lots of burping and gurgling.

BP and Caltex add some sort of anti foaming agent to their diesel. Caltex, at some outlets, also sell "truck diesel" which is the same fuel without the anti foaming agent and is delivered via a high flow pump. It's usually one or two cents / litre cheaper. I can't remember where but there was an outlet in outback NSW that sold "special diesel" which resulted in almost no foam at all.

In my Discovery 2 the last 15 or so litres takes longer to get into the tank than the previous 60 or 70 litres with Caltex or BP. If I use Shell to fill up it seems like it takes about nine years to get the last 30 litres into the tank.

I get around 11.0 litres / 100km while towing and around 10.0 while not towing the camper and under nine on a straight freeway trip.

-- Edited by markf on Monday 10th of April 2017 10:34:24 AM

-- Edited by markf on Monday 10th of April 2017 10:53:31 AM

kesa32 · Senior Member

I've read a lot of 200 series owners run large 2 micron secondary filters to insure against premature wear to there fine tolerance injectors

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

My opinion on diesel. There is not much diesel refined in Australia now so it all comes in from overseas refineries at the best price obtainable at the time for a ship load. Just the same for all the brands. Diesel varies depending on the oilfield it comes out of. So the characteristics change from tank to tank. Some foam more, some not, some has more heavy stuff in it that does not burn as cleanly. Hopefully they are all filtered and checked for performance and additives added as seen necessary. That applies to all brands by the way. confuse

Life is too short to worry about using just one brand to fill up. I am more concerned to buy from a higher volume station that will have clean tanks and MINIMAL WATER IN THEM. That worries me more than other things. Taking a few moment extra to fill is of little consequence to me !

You know, I have been working on diesels for lots of years, and they always have had a requirement for clean filtered fuel to a low standard, and no water in the injection system. Nothing new here, just people who have not had diesels before ?? hmm

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 10th of April 2017 11:50:53 AM

macka17 · Guru

JAAN.
I normally use BP locally, and mix with Caltex when on road.

Those two.
Per tank. on average seem to give more miles t'ween fills
and better pulling performance.
Shell always foams coming in, burns quicker
and seems to give less grunt to driving wheels.
Secondary filters all well and good.
But as long as you have a filter cooler under car. in line.
and change filter every 10k.
shouldn't be too many problems. I reckon.

I remember last ship I worked on with mate. Single deck
(Old Fiat 16 pot)
Stright crude. Mascerators first to break it down small enuff
to go through screens and cutters
to get through the injection system.

They ran on "cleaner" fuel from separate tank. till offshore.
Then crude and big trail of black smoke to next landfall.
There are around 7 grades of refinement from ship oil to EU fine.
We run on around no 5.
NOT, All that clean. but does the job.

Just remeber to go to different filling station if a Tanker in the drive.

ALL ThE CRAP AT BOTTOMS OF TANKS are stirred up if he filling.
Definitely NOT a good omen for your fuel tank thank you.

Hetho · Senior Member

Hello Bagmaker.

There are some interesting responses and it seems there are a few with similar interests.

Your suggestion is excellent, and no, I have not done a Km/ltr measurement/per fuel supplier; but I will do this now. (have a full tank now, so will run till empty then start to compare)

This may take quite a few weeks, so the next post may be a month or more away.

I have read all posts to date and thank all who have replied; and I have taken onboard all suggestions and input.

We are all working to protect our investment, and open discussion is good so we can all make informed decisions.

Regards.

Hetho.

rockylizard · Guru

Hetho wrote:
SNIP~~~ Your suggestion is excellent, and no, I have not done a Km/ltr measurement/per fuel supplier; but I will do this now. (have a full tank now, so will run till empty then start to compare)
This may take quite a few weeks, so the next post may be a month or more away.~~~SNIP
Regards.
Hetho.

Gday...

confuse An interesting exercise trying to calculate the fuel consumption - by tankful - of different fuel suppliers.

I think one of the first problems that will affect 'consistent evaluation' is the difference between servos of any particular fuel supplier.

You should also be aware that fuel consumption can vary markedly depending on:

Road conditions,
Road surfaces,
Traffic,
Amount of braking, acceleration,
Weather,
Car Speed maintained for each tankful,
Car Weight, and
Driving style.

Given how far one will travel on a full tank - probably at least 400Km towing and upto 600Km not towing - the conditions stated above will vary considerably for each tankful of fuel given the time that will be taken to use the tankful.

One MIGHT get some valuable comparative information if a full tank (or sensible quantity) of each supplier's fuel could be evaluated in the same day. However, even then, simply the changes in weather conditions over a 24 hour time frame would negate an objective assessment.

Despite my cautions, I would be interested in any outcome you arrive at ... and a recording of the details of the 'variables' stated above that were encountered during each tank full.

[edit: and to achieve a more valuable 'consistent evaluation' of each supplier would require more than one tank of each supplier's fuel. The variables are considerable]

Cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Monday 10th of April 2017 07:38:55 PM

Hetho · Senior Member

Hi John.

Absolutely agree with you reply, and I will be very diligent in my monitoring and recording.

Thanks for your input.

Regards.

Hetho.

Radar · Guru

Interesting subject, foaming = at our local WW servo 7 & 8 would foam take for ever to fill.

3 & 4 normal

When I spoke to the cashier about the foaming she said its been reported and now weeks later the diesil flows in, not a problem.

Yes, I would agree most of our fuels come from the Philippines by bulk tankers as our refineries are closing.

I do not believe the additives are for foaming, there is more to it then that.

As a fuel tanker driver back 20 years ago in Brisbane I spent many a week running our brand fuel to other brands as they under estimate there needs.

There is a maze of pipes under the Brisbane River running to and fro from various refinery to fuel depots.

I have trouble getting consistent fuel figures when I am towing with my latest ute, one day its good, next day questable, I buy from high turn over servos, not loyal to brand just pocket.

Was loyal to Shell once but there pricing even with a 4 cent docket got no chance. WW sometimes but mostly independents.

At the moment in Armidale Shell 1.35 along with a lot of others, Independent 1.25 a litre. 40 lt today, 5 days ago 60 lt, thats not a bad saving only small outlet but there has been cars on the driveway the whole time and guess what they served you at the pump. Not bad at all.

Last year we went away for near on 3 months used only independents buying at better prices then the 2 big ones. That would of been an interesting excercise if I had wrote down the cost of big 2 prices for comparison after 11000ks.

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

I concur with rockylizard & radar over different driving conditions one experiences from day to day & brand loyalty.
On our current trip, I've used Coles-Shell twice because of the cost blowouts (up to 11 cents a litre different) & a mixture of BP, Caltex, WW Caltex & United for the other fourteen refills. The only way to do a brand comparison is to use a test track & that's not practical.

Ever since I installed gas injection on my GQ Nissan & on to the current car, I keep a spread sheet detailing distance, amount of both fuels used, diesel-gas percentage (most important), fuel economy in both L/100Kms & Km/L, as well as cost.

I know I have what some call a juggernaut (old diesel injection system) but I on advice of Berrimah Diesel, I replaced the Nissan filter with their CAV type. Berrimah suggested changing filters every 10,000Kms. I did that for the first 10K & could not see any difference between the paper in the two filters so the next one will be changed at 15,000 Kms. I've carried the old filter/assembly with me in case of fuel starvation but that hasn't happened.
I'm not buying into what happens with new CRDs.

C00P · Senior Member

I once conducted such a comparison exercise between 91 and 95 unleaded in a Subaru Liberty. The vehicle was used primarily to and from work (150km round trip each day) and mainly freeway driving at a constant 110kph using cruise control. The fuels were changed every month (one month regular unleaded, one month 95 unleaded) and this process continued for 8 months (about 25,000 kms). The result? 95 unleaded was giving a 4% improvement in fuel consumption, but cost 6% more on average, so it wasn't worth it.
That's the sort of time span/distance/and consistent journey you need to make such a comparison. Over less time or shorter distances, or inconsistent journeys, so many other factors can intrude into the data that you couldn't in all honesty draw any conclusions. I see a 10-20% apparent change in fuel consumption (as measured by my scanguage) with a change of conditions from a 5 knot tail wind to a 5 knot head wind so you have to keep such comparisons going for a long time if you want to randomise all the "noise" (ie variations in conditions) and allow the "signal" to come through.
Good luck with trying to pick the difference between suppliers..

Cheers

Coop

erad · Guru

I agree with COOP. Being an old Engineer, I keep records of every expenditure and maintenance action on our cars. My wife's Mitsubishi Outlander does run better, and use less fuel on 95 or 98 Octane fuel compared to 91. E10 is a disaster - it uses more fuel and runs worse. My records show that the extra economy is more than countered by the extra cost for the higher octane fuels. We recently came back from Brisbane to Sydney on the Pacific Hwt in the Outie, using 6.2 L/100 km @ the legal speed limits (by GPS, not the wildly optimistic standard speedo). This was on 91 Octane petrol. I am fairly certain there was no wind at the time.

COOP talks about headwinds and tailwinds. A lot of the fuel is used to overcome windage and friction. Friction is essentially constant, varying only with load. Windage varies with speed. Windage losses vary according to the cube of the speed ie if you double the relative wind speed, you require 8 times the power. That is drastic, but consider travelling at 110 km/h with a 10 km/h wind. Headwind makes the relative wind speed 120 km/h. whilst a tailwind makes the relative spoeed 100 km/h. Compare (120/100) cubed and this equals 1.73 ie 73% more power to overcome the wind losses. OK - not all the losses in driving a car are windage, but a high percentage is.

It is easy to see why 90 km/h when towing a caravan or other her frontal area vehicle can result in significant fuel savings. And in most cases, at 90 km/h you see a lot more countryside than at 100.

Dundiggin · Member

Greetings All

JohnR Wrote :just had the first service completed on our 2016 Cruiser at 6000klm (Due to the nature of the towing and having 3 ton of Jayco in tow).

This is a very important comment that anyone new to van towing needs to take notice of.

Normal service periods for your vehicle is based on normal driving use that may include towing the odd trailer to the tip.

Using your vehicle as a medium to heavy caravan tug certainly makes all the moving parts work harder, in particular the engine.

To give your engine a good chance of being trouble free and living longer shorter service periods or interim oil + filter only services, is something you will hear all experienced Nomads do.

Good to sit back and read how the old hands sort things out on this and other subjects

Happy trails

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Cannot beat good servicing . Restrictive air filters are another reason for black smoke . With turbo engines ? It can also be air leaks between turbo & engine . Check oil on both sides of turbo as internal seals can leak into exhaust or intake ? If esstegste or ECU doesn't supply enough air or boost it'll run rich too . Although the Air Meter ( MAF) self tunes .

OutbackMK · Senior Member

I have a V8 70 series same engine as the 200 but single turbo.
If you travel a lot a second high capacity filter would be advisable, I have a FM100 from Dieselcare (Berrima also supply these) to trap the majority of the rubbish. A filter should only be about $30 or $40 (I use the Ryco one which has stated pore size unlike the OEM one) and easy to replace once you are shown the shortcuts, the factory filter starts off as about 12micron (depth filter) but with use it gradually gets blocked and then gets better often down to about 5 micron. After that you will find it becomes restrictive and needs replacing, I have about 120K on my tug now with fuel from all over generally at truck stops and fuel depots where they sell a high volume of diesel.
With the pre-filter (13um) installed I now change the factory filter every 20k (never had one block yet) and pre-filter when ever I set off for a big trip (across the top) which could be 30 or 40K. The pre-filter has a large water trap at the bottom so adds an extra level of safety from water contaminated fuel, rock the truck while filling and see if there is any layers in the glass sight bowl. (a water watch sensor is also available as an option with these filters.)
I hope this helps.
Brian

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

The foam is worse on hi flow pumps for obvious reasons . Require a good tank breather or large filler opening as in older tanks .

Lancelot Link · Senior Member

Is there still the issue of winter or alpine fuel versus summer fuels. I heard that the winter fuel had a more waxy consistency and in hot climates produced black smoke! Just a question.

Vince · Senior Member

Hi Hetho

I did an experiment on fuels and the result of filter condition some years ago, and found:-

Using same outlet of particular fuel over a 5000km interval to find after cutting the filters open - white element at new.

Done over a 12 month period and all local driving around where I live

Caltex Vortex - Filter was in good condition and a hint of grey from the white no deposits in the base

BP - Filter was in ok condition slightly more grey than Caltex no deposits in the base

Metro - Filter was near black and some deposits in the base.

I was going to do Shell but out of my way to get it.

I still use the Caltex or BP today but never going near the Metro no mater how much cheaper it is.

Cheers

Vince

Baz421 · Guru

I have meticulous records of towing at GCM of 6.5 tonnes over 10 years.

Caltex Vortex overall best economy.

However lately say last 2-3 years

definitely more foaming and takes longer to fill
nozzles seem to cut out sooner due foaming
power feels different depending on brands as I think some have said.

Overall more inconsistency in fuels - probably calorific values from different fields.

My 2 cents worth

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

cry that's interesting Baz.

I have always maintained spreadsheets recording actual Km/actual Litres fuel usage for all my vehicles.

From necessity I have rarely got the luxury of using only one brand of fuel as I travel mainly in outback, more remote areas, and when I need fuel it is at the next fuel stop - whatever flavour of diesel they flog. I use 'truck diesel' or any other diesel available.

The only diesel I do not use is E5 or E10 as it is prohibited by the manufacturer of my vehicle. I have not had the necessity to get fuel from drums at some outback servo. I sometimes use my jerry can to carry some fuel and it will be 'mixed' with whatever is in the tank from last fill.

Just using the past eight years with this vehicle as an example - travelling full-time towing the 2,600Kg van - I have found the only difference in fuel consumption is due to weather and/or road conditions. The consumption recorded in my spreadsheets is very close from tankful to tankful.

I genuinely doubt that any one flavour of diesel will give better fuel consumption every time it is used. I think it impossible that different flavours of diesel can be compared when, for instance, the weather conditions will vary from day to day, week to week. Quite apart from the varying traffic conditions from day to day, road to road ... or the condition of the road surfaces traversed.

I don't doubt that your records/experience has given the results you suggest - I just find it difficult to accept the findings.

Cheers - John

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Hell yes wind and topography can play big time . In my case with 7.2 ton nearly 1/4 more fuel going into strong head wind and maintaining 90 to 100 kph . Time to slow down or camp !! One of the worst trips was out of Money Mia ., WA .

OutbackMK · Senior Member

When travelling in areas where the fuel may contain water and or micro organisms I add 1ml per litre of either Fuel Doctor or Diesel Power conditioner to my tank. It does increase the Cetain rating slightly (like Octane rating for petrol) but also helps lubricate pump and injectors and stops algal growth in the tanks. People with common rail diesels are the people at risk, old school diesels with mechanical pumps and indirect injection will run on the smell of an oily rag without a problem. Early days with my Landcruiser I had a lot of black material on the filter, turned out to be bits of black plastic from the plastic fuel tank as many modern vehicles have plastic tanks it is quite common.
Without filtration my fuel system that runs at 30,000 PSI would have been trashed.
Brian

Baz421 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
that's interesting Baz.
I have always maintained spreadsheets recording actual Km/actual Litres fuel usage for all my vehicles.
From necessity I have rarely got the luxury of using only one brand of fuel as I travel mainly in outback, more remote areas, and when I need fuel it is at the next fuel stop - whatever flavour of diesel they flog. I use 'truck diesel' or any other diesel available.
The only diesel I do not use is E5 or E10 as it is prohibited by the manufacturer of my vehicle. I have not had the necessity to get fuel from drums at some outback servo. I sometimes use my jerry can to carry some fuel and it will be 'mixed' with whatever is in the tank from last fill.
Just using the past eight years with this vehicle as an example - travelling full-time towing the 2,600Kg van - I have found the only difference in fuel consumption is due to weather and/or road conditions. The consumption recorded in my spreadsheets is very close from tankful to tankful.
I genuinely doubt that any one flavour of diesel will give better fuel consumption every time it is used. I think it impossible that different flavours of diesel can be compared when, for instance, the weather conditions will vary from day to day, week to week. Quite apart from the varying traffic conditions from day to day, road to road ... or the condition of the road surfaces traversed.
I don't doubt that your records/experience has given the results you suggest - I just find it difficult to accept the findings.
Cheers - John

Yes I know and agree with your post,,, it is very minor only 5-10% ish but overall a small improvement and that doesn't count hills and wind, as I'm using generally flat terrain long distance travel for comparison. Air temp also has an effect.

Over time the minor differences add up. I don't solely use Caltex Vortex as it's not that widely available off major highways or centres.

Same as if I slow down just 200RPM I can increase economy small things add up.

Big Mal · Senior Member

My mate has a Sahara which he just gets the Toyo mob to service and recently on a trip up north the filter light came on and when asking the Tojo blokes about why, he was told they only service the filter when the light comes on, Mate being a truckie was not impressed as the vehicle had 80,000km on the clock, he now changes it regularly in his own workshop and carries spares.

I buy my oil and filters in bulk keeps the cost way down so the filters all get changed every oil change, much prefer the regular change of fuel filters to having some trouble down the track from contaminants, $50 small price to pay................Prefer the big brand fuel but sometimes you don't have a choice but only if they look like a high diesel turn over.