On the way to a weekend camp a couple of weeks ago & knowing that there was no water available, I filled both tanks (90L each) & with all the messages about weight lately, I weighed my single axle van. It was 100Kg over the ATM weight.
We carried only enough (light) clothing & food (fresh, frozen & packet) for four days but realise that the water tipped the weight over. I only filled the tanks completely to see what it all weighed.
My questions now are
What does one do now? If I was heading away for a longer period & was going into desert areas as well as colder locations (as in most of our normal holidays), one would be carrying as much water as possible, more food & heavier clothing. Do we chance running out of water?
Or does one take the risk of meeting the Scaleys?
I did a tally of known weights. The ball weight of 160Kg (loaded)is included in the ATM. The ATM of the van is 2015Kg, the Tare is 1640Kg as shown on the compliance plate. When weighed after the weekend, I got the tare weight down to 1680Kg (leaving the battery inside (25+Kg), the awning on, one partly full gas cylinder (13Kg), the other was empty & was removed for filling, the solar panel on the roof (5Kg).
If I filled the tanks (180Kg), HWS filled (20Kg), the toilet flush tank full, (10Kg), if both gas bottles were full (18Kg), hoses (15Kg), levelling equipt (8Kg), power cords (6Kg), three small portable solar panels (8Kg), a portable stove for outdoors cooking (3Kg), various odds & sods (cables, tools, spare toiletries, laundry equipt (10Kg), bedding (2x10Kg) kitchen bits (6Kg), cleaning fluids toilet, etc (2Kg), a ladder (10Kg), a DC fan (2.5Kg) that leaves about 51Kg for the battery, some tools, a few books to read, clothing & more food.
When we bought the van, there was a jerry can holder welded to the rear bumper bar as well as brackets for bolting something to the A frame. I found the insides of the tyres were worn (not visible when the van was in the sales yard). Since replacing the tyres, I have not found irregular wear on the tyres after 8,000kms.
I trust there may be some good advice out there
Warren
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Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
Three types of van are built.
it's up to the Salesmen to sell you one to suit
WHAT YOU TELL him you doing with it.
Small light Van park and O'Nighter. Short trip Casual van.
Basic. Beds. Kitchen and lounge.
Medium mid range size\weight van for either cruising on bitumin
OR Heavy duty Small\Medium for offroad.
WITH capacity to carry plenty of water . food etc.
OR Large oversize monsters that will be oversized. Overwight.
No matter what you take. where you go,
or for how long.
Cause one of you figures you MUST HAVE
the biggest heaviest to carry the most crap you can.
The one suits all, does NOT exist.
Figure out what you want. with the tug you have.
Or be sensible. Buy the tug you can afford to buy AND RUN.
Then assess what you can Safely. and legally.
Tow behind it.
And buy one of them.
Leaving 90% of the crap you DO NOT NEED. Behind in storage or sold.
In the next couple of yrs. A LOT are going to be very unhappy when legalities catch up.
Whether they knew. Or not.
SORRY.
A long way of saying you haven't really got the van you need for what you want.
Your tug is fine.
I towed my 6.5 mtr off roader tandem for around 14 yrs with my '02 Patrol.
and neither missed a beat.
Get rid of one of the tanks. and do short trips.
OR Swap the piping to make it a grey water tank from sink.
That way you only transfer water weight around. Not add more.
Your van has a lot of dead weight.
My last Compass. 17fter weighed 1140 empty over scales.
Max 1660kg with one 80ltr water and one battery.
POP top. Semi Offroad.
Made to carry the extra you need for longer trips.
Plus had 2 ton Chassis\susp. in case you wanted to uprate.
We used 3 ish months a yr Up North.
If you can't uprate. Best thing is buy a van that suits what you want
to do.
Without an uprate. Yours is not the van for you.
Can never be legal.
Which means. NO Insurance. THIRD PARTY don't cover you.
Rego invalid.
Could cost you ALL you own.
People don't think of that.
"It'll never happen to me". Don't let it be you mister.
Have you thought of careying wayer in the tug? If only 160 kg on ball theres room for some water surely?
9kg gas bottles actually weigh 18kg each when full, thats 36 plus batteries all on ball and usually on top of stamped tare.
Good luck!!!!
Hope this helps.
Kezngaz.
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Commitment shows. Quality is what is done when no one is looking.
I have no problem with weigh but last service I had on my caravan I ask him to check my weigh , He told I had no problems ,But if I did my caravan was underrated and because of the set up I have it could be rerated , He said I could take to an engineer to be re-plated . So if you have a problem this may be worth looking at you may have to alter something but worth a look .
You say the van is 100kg over when you weight it. I assume that the van was not connected to the car. if you connect the van to the car the ball weight will be transferred to the car which reduces the van weight. As long as the car is not over its gross mass when the van is connected and you are not over the combined gross weight (van+car weight) you are ok.
If you were on the limit of your vans gross weight when connected to the car some could say it would be illegal for you and your wife to step inside for a cuppa. Your combined weight would overload the van.
The boys in blue are interested in the gross weight of the van and the combined gross weight of the two and the ball weight when it is being driven on the road. They are not interested in the weight when stopped and you get inside for a cuppa.
If you can not (for what ever reason), transfer some stuff from the van to the tug, as others above have suggested
Perhaps you can only completely fill up the water tanks, at the last town before you reach the isolated areas you are going to
I doubt if the authorities would be setting up their scales, on isolated roads, as they would never have enough customers
G'day everyone,
Thanks for your replies. Regarding the tug, that has issues too, especially when the van is coupled up. I'm trying to get in touch with a local engineer to upgrade the GVM of that too. I'm told that it can be increased by 10% (around 300Kg), which will be more than enough.
It goes to show that "because a vehicle is able to tow that van", it may not be able to legally. When we bought the van, I was told "yes your Nissan can tow that van - easily". If anyone looks at the car, all looks normal (in fact a chap at my tyre dealer asked whether I had done any suspension mods recently). I hadn't but I did add HD airbags to the rear springs late last year (set for minimal pressure for non-towing). The car has a 2" lift kit on it (done some time in its past).
It took me a long time to find the car (9 months I was looking) & I wanted a DX model for two reasons - 5 seater & an extra 100Kg carrying capacity. But that model is mainly only for utilities, although I've seen the odd older model one around here from time to time. So I have an ST with 7 seats (2 removed but can be reinstalled quickly when needed) & a max of 600Kg according to the Red Book (only the GVM is shown on the plate).
So I have 600Kg to play with, take off 129L of diesel, an extra battery (25Kg), a winch-bull bar with driving lights, side steps - approx. 30Kg, roof rack (I've removed this) & a Nissan tow bar rated at 3500Kg (all were on when I bought the car), 5 passengers, although mainly only 2 when travelling. I have added a car fridge 38Kg empty + the slider (removed at the moment) & a gas injection system (28L of gas - the extra 6L is for expansion) - not certain of the weight in the kit & a 3" exhaust. I also carry essential spares, (hoses & belts), a fire extinguisher & adequate tools for most needs, as well as a small quantity of water & oil. Ball weight with the van on is 160Kg. Where the extra weight is I do not know.
I do not know why Nissan rate the Patrol so lightly when most parts of the drive line are much heavier than the Toyota.
So I have to look at the whole outfit - with the possibility of changing the car to a Izuzu D-Max (with the possibility of upsetting my wife, big time - "I do not want a dual cab ute" has been the statement for a number of years). Yes, I'll only partially fill the water tanks - we survived with 100L (max when out in the rugged country with the camper) - the 55 supplied capacity was a bit light on a couple of times & I'll use the bush (solar) shower, although we limit the water use in the shower (wet, shower off, soap up, shower on to rinse). The toilet, I can't change that as it is essential at night. The HWS can be left empty (20+L saved there).
Gee macca, were you ever a psychologist? Having family in SA, Vic, NSW, the ACT & Qld means short trips are not the norm for us. We average 7,000Kms on a 4-6 week holiday, often twice a year. Even a bird watching trip could be over 2000Kms return. And the only place I've ever seen the inspectors has been in northern NSW.
Thanks again for your comments - I'll get the car fixed, then I'll get thirsty in the van!
Warren
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Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
My family. Is Here. Melbourne. UK. Canada. US. and Sth Africa.
Try driving round that lot in one hit.
My '02 Patrol ST. Legal. was 3.2 (on average) ton on wheels. My van was Rated 3 ton. Usually around 2.7ish ton on wheels. with 350+ Drawbar.
I could get all Legal. (Apart fro D\Bar weight) But if stopped would have to move a coupla things around.
6.5mtr van over half empty, usually. Didn't carry much crap with us. Only 3 to 4 month trips. 3.75 Tinny on top 15hp Yammie and incidentals in rear. three seats out 80ltr Waeco in rear. 2 people and a cat (were 2 earlier)
Car normally. Near... limits. Van.(normally) rolling at around 2.7\2.8 ton. empty tanks always. apart from part filled 50ltr Stainless for drinking. Van was OVER weight if 3 tanks full.
D.MAX Can NOT tow more than Patrol. Legally and definitely NOT... Safely.
NO UTE CAN.. Don't be conned by paper figures.
I went from my Patrol to D'max. when van went from 6.5mtr. to 535 Coromal Tandem.2 ton on wheels.
Missus will drive D-Max. didn't like Patrol much. I had orthopedic, suspension seat and she 5 ft 1\2 inch.
Looked under, not over wheel (Chuckle) But she'd overtake road trains with van at 140. Several times.
A Patrol can go to around 6.2 ton combined. LEGALLY and SAFELY. (I'd have to dig the figures out.) NO ute can go there SAFELY.
I towed my rig round Aust for around 14 yrs without one hiccup. averaging 6.5 kmpl Towing. 9+kmpl by itself. Chip. Tuned Exhaust.Snorkel. Solid Flywheel\Safari clutch. Tinny on top. LIGHT FOOT on Pedal.
You've got one of the top couple for towing.
Auto?? Restricted to 2.5 ton. Sorry. Swap it. But.. If you install a "Torque Converter lock up switch" you'll help a lot, At your limits and slippages..
I have one on my D-Max. 4 spd. 2010.
-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 14th of July 2017 12:01:59 PM
You say the van is 100kg over when you weight it. I assume that the van was not connected to the car. if you connect the van to the car the ball weight will be transferred to the car which reduces the van weight. As long as the car is not over its gross mass when the van is connected and you are not over the combined gross weight (van+car weight) you are ok.
If you were on the limit of your vans gross weight when connected to the car some could say it would be illegal for you and your wife to step inside for a cuppa. Your combined weight would overload the van.
The boys in blue are interested in the gross weight of the van and the combined gross weight of the two and the ball weight when it is being driven on the road. They are not interested in the weight when stopped and you get inside for a cuppa.
Now stand back for the comments.
The measured weight of the unhitched van cannot legally exceed the plated ATM.
Your not alone with this problem and it doesn't matter what size the van is,most have a weight problem....The "Tug can tow 3.5t " is really BS, it can when nothing is loaded into it, mostly a 3.5t towcap means in the real world it can tow 2.9t legally.... a simple bit of math will show it as most tugs have a GCM of 6t.
In fact a lot of tugs wouldn't comply with the weights before they are itched up to a van from some that I've seen loaded up.
I think while you can get an increase in GVM of the tug they won't increase the GCM of the rig.........and a new plate of the van in most states they will give a new tare, add on the manufacturers load allowance which will give a new GVM providing the axle group loading will allow it, going over 2t though will mean a breaksafe has to be added as well.
Me I would just load up the water at the last minute.
-- Edited by Big Mal on Saturday 15th of July 2017 06:50:17 AM
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Checking out the places I drove past a thousand times................
I had the GVM of the Patrol upgraded yesterday (up 10%) so now I'm ok with it. The max weight I can be is now 3344Kg (which makes me happier).
The exercise in weighing the whole rig was definitely worth while - the only things different between our past Jayco Outback Eagle & the Discovery are the water capacities, having a combined bathroom, an airconditioner & a microwave oven instead of a toaster-oven. We have added nothing else into the van even though there are a lot more (& empty) cupboards.
The Eagle came with 55L of water only (for "dessert or remote" trips, I added a 50L tank above the axle). The Discovery comes with 180L in both tanks, 20-23L in the HWS & 15-20L in the toilet. Unfortunately convenience in our mature (70 & 70+) years comes at a cost in weight. Now that I have fitted tank gauges, I can monitor what I carry & use.
The van - I'm going to look at putting the axle under the springs so the rear step doesn't drag on steep drive ways & if it will go under our carport & then take it to the engineer to see what can be done with the weight upgrade. I'm also looking at adding a "Break-away" switch.
I'm ok too with the methods of measuring the weights - the two new weigh bridges at Townsville are free to use at any time & while there is a building there, I have not seen it manned yet.
And macca, I think this Patrol will be my last - I'm extremely happy with the 4.2TDi with the gas injection. I've had it for three & a half years & done 128,000 trouble free kms & getting as good/slightly better fuel consumption than if the car was new (11.6L/100km, as in the Red book)).
I'm wondering what I should give the car for its 400,000km birthday in three week's time - any ideas?
Unfortunately I've seen too many 3L Patrols on remote trips with blown engines to go down that path. Possibly my next & LAST 4WD may be a D-Max - if
- there is enough leg room for me (I'm 6'6" tall)
- I can convert my wife to consider a dual-cab ute &
- I can park it at the Vincent shopping centre (made for people with mini-cars) here in Townsville !
One point of interest that I've gleaned from a friend who has bought one, is that a 200 series GXL is softer than the 100 series GXL- he had his upgraded on the initial order. And I've had my first & LAST Toyota - a 1967 model! And we are not interested in going to a larger van - this one does it all for us.
Cheers,
Warren
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Warren
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If you don't get it done today, there's always tomorrow!
Yes mate. Had a 60 ser for horses a lot of yrs ago. Wouldn''t touch any following models after that thank you.
My prev Patrol was a '91 GQ. Magic truck. 10 yrs. Then ( '01off the line.) '02 plated GU.
GQ Skinnier inside than the GU but gives all the confidence in the world.
In the yrs I've had my GU. Towing. NOT comp or bush. I only ever actually SAW. 2 with dead engines. Mainly the owners faults. a few with the Layshaft conversion.(5th\Rev) Thousands with no problems. me included.
Yours. 400k. Nearly run in.
Synthetic oils only. Fuel filter with Oil changes.
Birthday pressie. SIMPLE.
go to one if the renowned (there are several). Diesel upgrade. Rebuild. Tuning Specialist wksps. If Injectors orig. Exchange. they cheap enuff, Even just the tips. WITH the fuel lined from Pump to them.
and give her a Fuel System tune on Dyno.
There are good and not so good operators on those,
Find a GOOD one. Reputation.
and you'll wonder where it's been hiding all this time. Be around a grand? But WELL worth it.
Extractors and tuned exhaust worth a thort too. 409 Stainless. Not much cost more. Help her breathe.
And pop your windscreen (Insurance. It broke, remember.) Replace what's left of the steel surround under the glass.
There, rear door hinge areas, Roofline and sills. known for it. Coil spring cup mounts tend to crack too if towing a lot. They sell reinforced replacements.
4 x EFS "Extreme" Shockers. You'll be floating on air.
And IF ever you change your coils. Get "Progressive Rate" ones, Ask. They'll tell you why. and they a 1\2 yr job to change out. Max.
Look after it. they my fav, 4wd after my old ser 2, 2 ltr Diesel Landy's.
Ther u go.
Good enuff Birthday Pressie??.
PS.
I put a Breakaway sw in ALL my vans.
Even a little 12 fter can kill some people if it breaks away and runs off.
Make sure it stops hey.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 16th of July 2017 07:29:23 PM
When I had my van built I asked to have it stamped for 1000kg payload which apparently was no problem. (I had to allow for 3 fresh and 1 grey tank plus extra solar and batteries)
Was all dependant on weight distribution, wheels/tyres size and rating etc, so if you're constantly up near the max, go to local engineer and get it re-stamped. Your local body builder will be able to help you there.
I've got a 2350 tare and a 3350GVM, (hope I never get to the max).
I weighed my van fully loaded and had 40 KG up my sleeve so as to speak,that's with two empty 80Kg water tanks that would put me over the limit when filled,am I going through all the rigmarole to fix that hell no.
