All readers please be aware such cable is not designed or approved for such use.
AS the New rules are not readily available I have asked the question on an electrical trades forum
[ "Phased electrical"]has two sections ,one open to the public & one restricted to qualified people only,for obvious reasons, that it deals with Trade & Standards related subjects.
That is were I asked the question
First reply.
Originally Posted by 11T.Co
I doubt that the new revision will relax those conditions because ordinary flexible cords were never designed for such applications.
I don't even know why anybody would even consider using them like that.
Let's look at the 2 types of cable side by side and compare there strengths and weaknesses. Both types are available in different conductor sq mm area to allow for different current caring requirements. In industrial application where the cable is exposed in cable trays round flex cord is used because it can withstand a more hostile environment that the white covered flat cable used in offices etc where cable trays are used.
Flex cord also referred to as extension cord or cable by some. We will call type 1 for this discussion
The cable used in internal wall house wiring is sometimes referred to as two pair and earth or service cable, has a white outer insulation and the 3 cables are positioned to give a flat shape rather than a round shape. We will call this type 2 for this discussion
Type 1:
A) Flex cord has a tough outer covering designed to withstand exposure to some wear and abrasion, the higher the protection level required the stronger and thicker the external coating.
B) The cable uses conductors made from very thin single strands twisted together and covered in the appropriate coloured insulation. All 3 smaller cables are also twisted together along the length of the main cable and covered by a second layer of protective insulation resulting in a round very flexible cable that is not effected by constant movement that could fracture a thicker conductor.
Type 2:
A) The type used in house wiring does not have a very durable outer insulation coating because it is not intended to be used where abrasion could be a factor.
B) These cables come with either solid single conductor or 5 thinner conductors twisted together and covered by the appropriate coloured insulation. These smaller cables run in parallel with each other and are coated with a white insulation coating resulting in flat cable that requires a larger round hole to pass through to avoid chaffing by the movement of the frame work if movement is likely. Only the thinner 5 stand twisted type cable is suitable for RV use as the single solid core conductor is known to break after a while where movement is involved
The environment the cable is used in an RV is a much more hostile environment than in a house due to vibration, twisting the need to pass through holes in the walls rather than through a roof cavity and drop down through the walls at required location. Some houses are no longer wired this way either but they do have a lot more space in the wall cavity and much thicker frame work so hole size to pass the cable through is less critical. Insulation type grommets where the cable passes through metal frame work are generally round so the extra diameter of the hole required to fit a grommet large enough to pass a flat cable through rather than a round cable becomes a much more serious issue.
I'll leave the reader to consider which type of cable would be the better choice for use in an RV.
T1 Terry
__________________
You can lead a head to knowledge but you can't make it think. One day I'll know it all, but till then, I'll keep learning.
Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
Let's look at the 2 types of cable side by side and compare there strengths and weaknesses. Both types are available in different conductor sq mm area to allow for different current caring requirements.
[a]In industrial application where the cable is exposed in cable trays round flex cord is used because it can withstand a more hostile environment that the white covered flat cable used in offices etc where cable trays are used.
[B] Flex cord also referred to as extension cord or cable by some. We will call type 1 for this discussion
[B2]The cable used in internal wall house wiring is sometimes referred to as two pair and earth or service cable, has a white outer insulation and the 3 cables are positioned to give a flat shape rather than a round shape. We will call this type 2 for this discussion
Type 1:[a] ) Flex cord has a tough outer covering designed to withstand exposure to some wear and abrasion, the higher the protection level required the stronger and thicker the external coating. B) The cable uses conductors made from very thin single strands twisted together and covered in the appropriate coloured insulation. All 3 smaller cables are also twisted together along the length of the main cable and covered by a second layer of protective insulation resulting in a round very flexible cable that is not effected by constant movement that could fracture a thicker conductor.
Type 2: A) The type used in house wiring does not have a very durable outer insulation coating because it is not intended to be used where abrasion could be a factor. B) These cables come with either solid single conductor or 5 thinner conductors twisted together and covered by the appropriate coloured insulation. These smaller cables run in parallel with each other and are coated with a white insulation coating resulting in flat cable that requires a larger round hole to pass through to avoid chaffing by the movement of the frame work if movement is likely. Only the thinner 5 stand twisted type cable is suitable for RV use as the single solid core conductor is known to break after a while where movement is involved
[c]
[1]The environment the cable is used in an RV is a much more hostile environment than in a house due to vibration, twisting the need to pass through holes in the walls rather than through a roof cavity and drop down through the walls at required location. Some houses are no longer wired this way either but they do have a lot more space in the wall cavity and much thicker frame work
[2]
so hole size to pass the cable through is less critical. Insulation type grommets where the cable passes through metal frame work are generally round so the extra diameter of the hole required to fit a grommet large enough to pass a flat cable through rather than a round cable becomes a much more serious issue.
I'll leave the reader to consider which type of cable would be the better choice for use in an RV.
T1 Terry
I wonder were you got that load of crap from ,Google??? So here goes
[A]
There are a lot more than just TWO types of FLEXIBLE cables
[A] [a] non flexible TPS "Flat OR CIRCULAR single, or multi core} White or any colour is the cable normal used with cable trays in permanent situations, building wiring wiring , factories etc
You do not seem to be able to understand that wiring in offices on trays using the plug & play system IS NOT CLASSED as fixed/permanent wiring since it is ALL plug connected. No electrician required to install
That is what the "soft wiring " system was originally designed for, connected to the PERMANENT installation & then allowed non licensed people to change the "in office wiring "around if required by by layout changes
Allowed for one simple reason THAT wiring was:
PLUG & SOCKET CONNECTED , No actual wiring connection requiring TOOLS. All in compliance with the various state electrical regulations
Absolutely no reason or requirement to use flexible cables in FIXED ELECTRICAL WORK , Certainly much more expensive & more difficult to work with
The White or grey Flexible round cable used with ANY appliance , office equipment ,is used for ONE purpose, "Flexibility'". It would be absolutely stupid to use non flexible cable in that situation
[B]
Solid Single conductors are no longer acceptable & have not been acceptable for many years
!
Normal extension lead flexible cable , grey or white as used in General purpose DOMESTIC extension leads & appliance leads & by the non trades people is often referred to as "Flex" is classed as" LD"[light duty]
Not to be used in situations where it could be subject to mechanical damage
You should not find it on building ,construction etc sites where "HEAVY"[ORANGE ]duty shall be used
[B2]
Why call it other than the correct terninology
Which is TPS cable
Not sure where your info comes from BUT :
In the ELECTRICAL trade Such cable is referred to as two core & earth, . three core & earth, even four core & earth TPS [TOUGH PLASTIC SHEATHED]
It can be white or Grey coloured
Service line is only that line between point of supply & metering! The rest is regarded simply as the installation
Type 1 [a]
Leaving out the padding,
Yes the cables are protected to a limited extent by the outer covering , the type & thickness of which is determined by the environment it is to be used in [ light duty, heavy duty extra heavy duty]
That outer covering primarily determines the duty class.
I will repeat ALL multi core,flexible cables are NOT the same!
Type 2A
It has a lot more durable , tougher outer sheath than LD flexible cable. You will never be allowed to use LD flexible in accessible roof spaces etc
Any one should be able to see that & test it by trying to bare the conductors!!!
2B
Just So Much incorrect !! Where to Start?
Single Stand conductors has not been approved for many years, SHALL be a minimum of SEVEN strand
Don't know where you got your 5 strand from!
Seven strand for 15A [ 2.5mm] As in accordance with AS/NZS5002.2 .Try to buy 5 strand
SEVEN STRAND is the min allowed under AS/NZS 3001 & that has been for a long time.
Available in MANY colors of outer sheathing.
[C]
C1
Yes Vibration is a problem, that is why 7 strand has been the min requirement for many years & is still the approved typed.
There are also rules covering unsupported distances with a requirement for support if those distances are exceeded
Caravans ARE PREWIRED before the skin goes on , & don't claim that rewiring would be easier with the plug a play system
C2
What size hole would you need to put the APPROVED Soft wired sockets & plugs through.???
To All ,please remember that ALL the 240V wiring in vans SHALL comply with ALL the relevant cf of both AS/NZS 3000 AND 3001
IT is considered licenced electrical work in all states except for factory produced in Victoria
Terry, please keep to the subject that you do have "some knowledge on," EXTRA LOW voltage ' & lithium batteries
I do not like embarrassing you,.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 06:27:37 PM
Here is another reply on that QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN only forum
"[a]well it was acceptable as long as HD flex was used.
As we currently use flexible X90 or X110 cables without any query it probably os still the case that HD is permissible.
I recall LD flex being acceptable as long as protected mechanically i.e in conduit."
Please note the two important points
[a]HD flex ,Not LD flex as used in white or grey extension leads
Yes ,that is the way ,I too remember it.
It has to have additional mechanical protection even if in a wall cavity
Caravan wall cavities do not meet the requirements of AS3000 with regard to gap, [without extra cable mechanical protection] from damage by staples nails screws etc We KNOW such problems have occurred
The point is one that I stated in that other thread
ALL flexible cables are not the same ,in fact there are many classifications ,depending proposed use
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 06:56:30 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 07:02:27 PM
1mm / 1.5mm wire is 1 strand . Used for lighting . Btw 2.5 mm sq can take much more than 15 amp . Flex cable doesnât always say wire size .. just 15 amp cable, plugs . Thereâs is NO approval or wire standard for most of this type of cable !
1mm / 1.5mm wire is 1 strand . Used for lighting . Btw 2.5 mm sq can take much more than 15 amp . Flex cable doesnât always say wire size .. just 15 amp cable, plugs . Thereâs is NO approval or wire standard for most of this type of cable !
Absolute CRAP!!Absolutely!!!
THE AMP rating on it's own means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Yes your local Bunnings may just refer to it as 15A cable , but try that at an electrical wholesale who sells to & only gives discounts to REAL electricians
Without actual copper cross sectional area, how would you calculate voltage drop
Important & SHALL be complied with for low voltage ,
& with EXTRA LOW voltage systems VOLTAGE drop while not mandated is a very important considerations for satisfactory operation of equipment
But you probably do not understand that,not being electrical qualified
In Australia ,Every thing to do with Low voltage electrics is covered by STANDARDS
Just Google Australian electrical Standards
you will find applicable Standards for cables [low voltage]are:
I suspect that you're losing your target audience by suggesting that only "electrical qualified" people understand the importance of voltage drop. Just saying...
I suspect that you're losing your target audience by suggesting that only "electrical qualified" people understand the importance of voltage drop. Just saying...
Sorry, but that was not my intent.
It was aimed at that poster ,who obviously does not understand that current rating means nothing as far as voltage drop is concerned
As you are aware you can have a cable rated @15A but not suitable for a current of 15A due to length
I suspect a "qualified electrician" knows naff all about insulations, flexation of varios polymers, UV resistances, plastic contact with other materials, etc etc as well
I suspect a "qualified electrician" knows naff all about insulations, flexation of varios polymers, UV resistances, plastic contact with other materials, etc etc as well
Yes with quite a few etc etc etc l
Like degrading of insulation due to temps in the cavity of a metal clad van[temp limitations]
Reduced current capacity for the same reasons
Differences in actual current rating depending on expected max temps of the surrounding air, & that leads to reductions in current rating,depending on being in free air ,grouped together,buried in underground,number in conduits , even how they are bundled on cable trays,etc
Tables available covering all those different situations for each grade/type of INSULATION & how they should be derated
Yet we have some self proclaimed experts saying there are no standards for cables
That massive on going recall of 100s of kiloM of chinese cable is due to noncompliance of insulation to temp reqs
The insulation IS NOW breaking down
Fires will soon start showing up!!
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 8th of March 2018 01:32:57 PM
Well .I found I still had the draft of the proposed amendments [the whole 600pages]
A couple of things were very clear unless it was changed before printing
[1]Ordinary light duty flexible cable is not approved. That the stuff most every day extension leads are made of
It SHALL be HEAVY duty Flexible cable
[2]Do not be confused by some caravan Extension leads etc being labelled "heavy " duty that only means they are using a larger copper core to overcome voltage drop with motors starting'
[3]HEAVY duty flexible cable is cable rated for use up to 600 AC V, Not just 250V AC that is the thin stuff used for most general purpose leads ,or even 450V rated flexible cable
What does the 600V indicate ? much heavier /'thicker insulation & mechanical protection
Suitable flexible cable should be clearly marked at regular interval along it's insulation with the Voltage rating ,most likely as 0.6kV
If the surrounding air temp exceeds 50 C, the cable must be derated [current wise, tables available] to suit the actual MAX air temp in that cavity
l leave it to members to consider what temps are likely to be reached in roof & wall cavities of vans ,especially those with Aluminum skins in mid summer in some parts of Australia.
While it is not damaged poly foam insulation ,it should not be covered by it as that will also call for derating that whole circuit, And if it goes through the foam, the hole Shall be much bigger than the cable
All other requirements are the same as for non flexible cables except connnections
The connections must be of a type that ensures EVERY strand of copper cable is firmly retained & clamped to /by the connector
That would seem to rule out normal tunnel & screw connectors as with switches & outlets etc
The cable ends going into connectors SHALL NOT be soldered
Although not mentioned ,ferrules ,correctly fitted with the correct tools should be acceptable for use with tunnel connectors.
All /Any joints shall be accessible for inspection & in some form of approved junction box.
Quite a bit more but those are the main points
But as blind Freddy should see,It is not simply a question of going to a bit of extension lead cable
I should again point out, this is from the 600 pages of proposed amendments to AS/NZS 3000 ,that I recieved mid last year
Poor old brain had forgot I had them
It seems the new Standard is not yet available so there could be minor changes , but it is very unlikely that there would be major changes to the above
PS .the plug & play system connectors Are considered as a suitable junction box as the connectors & cables are restrained from just pulling out
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 9th of March 2018 01:13:07 AM
"Although not mentioned ,ferrules ,correctly fitted with the correct tools should be acceptable for use with tunnel connectors."
Yet another case of the standards being well behind the eight ball when I comes to modern practices. Bootlace ferrules have been used for tradesman type installations for at least the last 10 yrs to prevent loss of clamping pressure in screw thread type connectors due to the physical properties of copper. I guess they weren't around when you were actually on the tools Peter, but surely flex cable was used even back then in factory machinery wiring.
Simply by defining all flex cable under you classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part. Suggesting the white covered flat cable is better for handling high temperatures is simply nonsense and you know it. Calling a cable 2 core and earth does not separate the flat type cable from flex cable, it is all 2 core and earth, hopefully you do understand that.
Talk about holes big enough to fit plug and play type cable plugs through wall cavities simply doesn't make sense. You have already pointed out the standards do not refer to this as hard wiring so where is your logical link to installing it in wall cavities. I believe hard wiring isn't simply identified by plug in or otherwise, there is a far wider definition of what constitutes hard wiring and hopefully you know that too.
Simply by throwing up a heap of nonsense does not blur the fact that round flex cable of the correct rating would be a better choice for RV wiring through wall cavities than the flat ribbon cable. I understand it will be hard to get past the "it has always been done that way so it should always be done that way" type of mind set.
We are actually in the 21st century now so maybe it's time to look at the old practices and see if they are really still the best option when it comes to RV wiring. Given enough time the standards will catch up, if they finally recognise that there are such things as inverters that can supply enough to power a full hard wired house or RV I'm sure they will eventually recognise that the flat ribbon cable is not the only acceptable form of cabling, maybe even as far as recognising it isn't the optimum choice for such an install.
T1 Terry
__________________
You can lead a head to knowledge but you can't make it think. One day I'll know it all, but till then, I'll keep learning.
Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
"Although not mentioned ,ferrules ,correctly fitted with the correct tools should be acceptable for use with tunnel connectors."
Yet another case of the standards being well behind the eight ball when I comes to modern practices. Bootlace ferrules have been used for tradesman type installations for at least the last 10 yrs to prevent loss of clamping pressure in screw thread type connectors due to the physical properties of copper. I guess they weren't around when you were actually on the tools Peter, but surely flex cable was used even back then in factory machinery wiring.
Simply by defining all flex cable under you classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part. Suggesting the white covered flat cable is better for handling high temperatures is simply nonsense and you know it. Calling a cable 2 core and earth does not separate the flat type cable from flex cable, it is all 2 core and earth, hopefully you do understand that.
Talk about holes big enough to fit plug and play type cable plugs through wall cavities simply doesn't make sense. You have already pointed out the standards do not refer to this as hard wiring so where is your logical link to installing it in wall cavities. I believe hard wiring isn't simply identified by plug in or otherwise, there is a far wider definition of what constitutes hard wiring and hopefully you know that too.
Simply by throwing up a heap of nonsense does not blur the fact that round flex cable of the correct rating would be a better choice for RV wiring through wall cavities than the flat ribbon cable. I understand it will be hard to get past the "it has always been done that way so it should always be done that way" type of mind set.
We are actually in the 21st century now so maybe it's time to look at the old practices and see if they are really still the best option when it comes to RV wiring. Given enough time the standards will catch up, if they finally recognise that there are such things as inverters that can supply enough to power a full hard wired house or RV I'm sure they will eventually recognise that the flat ribbon cable is not the only acceptable form of cabling, maybe even as far as recognising it isn't the optimum choice for such an install.
T1 Terry
Terry
I could not be bothered with your opinions on the Standards any more
Your desperation in trying to convince people only you know /understand the rules is unbelievable
You are NOT electrically qualified.
I am & Have had to use & follow the Standards for many many years
.If you still believe ALL flexible cables are the same type ,grade & suitable for use in any situation ,WELL,GOD help anyone you give advice to
You most likely have never fully read the current standard,
'IF you have,you certainly have a poor understanding of what it means
Why don't you just grow up
Are you saying that you know more about Electrical Standards than all those knowledgeable people who have input to them
I have quoted the proposed Amendments in detail
I cannot copy & post as that would be illegal
Perhaps you should get on that other forum "phased Electrical "as their chief electrical advisor
Perhaps you do not even understand that the Standards only set the minimum requirements that must be met.
If a" qualified" person wishes to /or believes it is worthwhile to exceed those requirement there is nothing stopping them
Now to your particular comment on ferrules
Ask those clever electrically qualified mates you claim to have, how many of them use ferrules on cables for every day instals
I will not be replying directly to you to anymore of your stupid posts on LOW voltage Electrics .
But every STUPID/wrong /misleading comment you make on matters that you do not have the qualification to post on I will point out the errors/misinformation in those posts for the benefit of the many sensible members of this forum,
I understand you are desperate to prove your points, just as you were on other forums until you were thrown off
As for continuous reference to my age ,I leave that for other members to judge who they believe is the most reliable source of information on REAL electrics
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 9th of March 2018 02:42:40 PM
"If you still believe ALL flexible cables are the same type ,grade & suitable for use in any situation ,WELL,GOD help anyone you give advice to"
Umm... Peter, how did you interpret that from
"Simply by defining all flex cable under you classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part."
but I now see I have a typo where I've missed the "r" so it should have read "Simply by defining all flex cable under your classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part" so maybe you might like to retract that bit as there is no indication on my part that I am the one suggesting all flex cable is the same, this is your interpretation of something I have posted previously.
Seriously Peter, if you have this much trouble interpreting my posts then one is left wondering how good your interpretations of the standards are eh
T1 Terry
__________________
You can lead a head to knowledge but you can't make it think. One day I'll know it all, but till then, I'll keep learning.
Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
"If you still believe ALL flexible cables are the same type ,grade & suitable for use in any situation ,WELL,GOD help anyone you give advice to"
Umm... Peter, how did you interpret that from
"Simply by defining all flex cable under you classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part."
but I now see I have a typo where I've missed the "r" so it should have read "Simply by defining all flex cable under your classification of "light duty" is seen as simple nonsense on your part" so maybe you might like to retract that bit as there is no indication on my part that I am the one suggesting all flex cable is the same, this is your interpretation of something I have posted previously.
Seriously Peter, if you have this much trouble interpreting my posts then one is left wondering how good your interpretations of the standards are eh
I am actually qualified . What I was stating the flex cables cords sold are not all up to spec of domestic house wiring . Why go all personal .. Sheesh .,
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Friday 9th of March 2018 09:57:03 PM
I am actually qualified . What I was stating the flex cables cords sold are not all up to spec of domestic house wiring . Why go all personal .. Sheesh .,
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Friday 9th of March 2018 09:57:03 PM
If that is what you meant ,my apologies
You are saying more or less the same as me
But I will go further
There are many grades of flexible cables ,something our self proclaimed expert on every thing does not seem to comprehend
The only ones approved for fixed wiring as stated in the proposed amendments being 0.6kV grade ,[very very clear]
Not 250V or 450V which are the general flexible leads
one doesn't need a qualification to comment Peter, common sense would suffice.
Was the temperature rating of the lead based on it resting in snow or on summers asphalt?
Can you send me some of that popcorn I'm getting fatigued
It stated rating is based on being in free air with a max of 50C
it then starts to be derated[ tables given] based on the actual air temp or restricted escape of IR heating within the cable
Simply put , the INSULATION temp is affected by the current through the cable ,the ability to dissipate that IR generated heat & the surrounding temp
The only thing that can be done ,without introducing some cooling ,method is to limit the max current to a safe value
Done by putting a suitable circuit breaker in the line
The safe operating temp of the that grade of cable for sustained use is 70 C [ from memory]above ,that the insulation WILL degrade
That was/is the problem with that Chinese cable that the authorities are worried about & have put out another recall notice
Tests have shown it does not comply to the temp requirements & by now the insulation could be in trouble [breaking down ,splitting ,falling off,] that of course is not flexible cable but every day cable for wiring in a range of sizes etc
Some may not be aware, but as I previously posted cable current rating depend highly on the ability of the cable to get rid of the IR heat generated in by the current
So the cables actual allowed rating varies from being in free air , if it is bundled , in conduit in covered areas ,in conduit in hot sun,buried in pipes underground ,even buried direct into the ground , & no surprise the same sized & insulation grade has a higher current rating for each of those situation in New Zealand
Selecting the correct cable ,with the correct size ,correct type of insulation is not as simple as some think , so many environmental consideration
Take bake houses , Laundries, foundries many situations were derating would be required
and even situations were only mineral insulated cables can be used such cables use to be asbestos insulate, now fibre glass,/ or Pyrotenax type [for very high temp situation]
I have not looked in on this site/forum for a fair while, and after reading this whole string Im going back into hiding for more than a fair while.
Awww. come on Tom, if we all agreed it would be boring, no one would buy popcorn unless they went to the movies and shares in popcorn manufacture would drop .... and no one wants that eh
T1 Terry
EDIT: If I proof read my own posts it would be a lot better too
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Tuesday 13th of March 2018 03:19:21 PM
__________________
You can lead a head to knowledge but you can't make it think. One day I'll know it all, but till then, I'll keep learning.
Any links to any sites or products is not an endorsement by me or do I gain any financial reward for such links
