Weight distribution bars

Collett Brian · Newbie

Weight distribution bars

yobarr · Guru

Collett Brian wrote:
In approx 2 weeks we will be collecting our 2018 New Age Manta Ray 16ft single axle van. Can someone please advise if weight distribution bars are necessary & if so, what rating is required?
The average tare weight of the van =1840-1940kg and the average towball weight 100-140kg.

-- Edited by Collett Brian on Tuesday 6th of March 2018 02:32:00 PM

-- Edited by Collett Brian on Tuesday 6th of March 2018 02:46:32 PM
Hi Brian.....We would need to know what your car is to be able to give any helpful advice,but it is likely
that you will be fine without WDH,provided you increase your ball weight to around 190kg,or around
10% of your ATM.
Cheers

Collett Brian · Newbie

Thanks yobarr
The towing vehicle is a 2017 Colorado Dual Cab Tray back -it will be loaded with a large Quad bike, generator, Engel plus about a further 150 kg of equipment. All up weight approx 550 kgs in the tray back and extra cab space.
Cheers
Brian

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Welcome to the gang Collett Brian, enjoy here and out in the playground.

The ATM (Max weight allowed for van) is more important than the Tare. IMO.

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

As far as the WDB go, I would try towing without first then make your mind up. Drive to the conditions around you.

I have what is in my signature below and don't need or use WDB. Everything sits nice and level and no wobbles. I am more than happy.

I did put an extra leaf on both rear springs though and that helps heaps. Well worth the cost. I had that done by Pedders.

iana · Guru

Collett Brian wrote:
Thanks yobarr
The towing vehicle is a 2017 Colorado Dual Cab Tray back -it will be loaded with a large Quad bike, generator, Engel plus about a further 150 kg of equipment. All up weight approx 550 kgs in the tray back and extra cab space.
Cheers
Brian

I've got chips and beer, should I get some popcorn as well ?

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Try tese instead Ian biggrin biggrin

Sorry Collett Brian, Ian made me do it smile

yobarr · Guru

Collett Brian wrote:
Thanks yobarr
The towing vehicle is a 2017 Colorado Dual Cab Tray back -it will be loaded with a large Quad bike, generator, Engel plus about a further 150 kg of equipment. All up weight approx 550 kgs in the tray back and extra cab space.
Cheers
Brian

Hi Brian...these figures are given only as a guide,in an effort to help you,as always there will be someone to jump on on here to argue the point! Your car has a GVM (max CAR weight) of 3150kg and a GCM (max car and van) of 6000kg. The tare of the car is around 1950kg,so you can carry 1200kg.....on paper! With a van of 1950kg behind,you are obviously well within your limits,but the rear axle on your car has a maximum capacity of only 1850kg....THAT is the one you need to watch! When you load your gear onto the tray,try to keep the heavy stuff as far forward as possible......can you perhaps put the fridge on the floor in the back seat? With a towball weight of 190kg,(10%) you are adding (very roughly) 270kg to the rear axle of your car,but you still should be OK? Connect your laden van,and head to a weighbridge.First,weigh the front axle of the car,then drive the CAR onto the weighbridge to get your GVM......that must be under 3150kg. Now deduct the front axle weight from the total car weight,which will give (obviously!) the weight on your cars rear axle. If that is 1850kg or less,and you have made sure that you have a towball weight of around 190kg (10% of ATM) youre good to go! And you dont need to use a WDH,which many consider to be the great saviour,but which is a terribly over rated piece of equipment,in my opinion!........ ..and best avoided! Good luck with your project!

Cheers

Collett Brian · Newbie

HI Guys
Thankyou so much for your feedback. This is my first caravan & as I will be reaching an 80 year milestone this year, I really appreciate honest opinions from experienced caravanners!!
Cheers
Brian

Roy E · Senior Member

Collet Brian,
What yobarr wrote makes very good sense but there are a couple of points perhaps not made clearly enough;
When you get your new van, you can bet the TARE will be at the higher end, say, at least 1940 kg.
With a single axle van you will be able to add 300 kg payload (and you'll need it). Total weight (ATM) 2240 kg.
Generally accepted around OZ, you need 10% of ATM as towball download for stability.
Additional load on back of ute now 220+ kg.
Because of leverage of towball download on hitch well behind ute rear axle, weight on ute front axle will decrease giving reduced steering and braking.
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) will decrease ute rear axle load and increase ute front axle load as well as van axle load. A WDH may be necessary to get ute rear axle load back within limits.
With my previous van and tug, I travelled a couple of times without connecting WDH and ride in tug was bad with every bump van went over being felt in tug. Connecting WDH made it feel like there was no van on behind apart from reduced tug acceleration. I have not towed my new van in my new tug without WDH and I have no intention of doing so.
A point with using/fitting WDH is that it is now generally accepted that for tug rear-end sag/front-end rise after hooking up van, WDH is used to correct 50% of sag/rise.
There are a lot of vanners around who won't use a WDH and some correctly point out using one increases tow-hitch overhang from rear axle. Other feel, incorrectly, weight can be redistributed by using airbags on rear axle.
If you do go to a weighbridge with ute and new van, it would be good to do all the weighs yobarr suggested with and without WDH.
Good luck and regards,
Roy.

BaldEd · Veteran Member

Brian, when you are setting up your hitch, make sure you have the tug fully fueled up and loaded ready for travel. I have a Colorado7 towing a 16ft single axle Jayco (approx 2000kg, towball weight 260kg) with an Andersen WDH. The 'van tows beautifully but I have found that it is extremely important to tension up the WDH so that weight is restored to the front axle. The difference in steering handling between a <1/4 tank of fuel and a topped off tank can be scary, if the tension was initially set with a low fuel quantity and one adds 60kg of fuel without changing the tension.

With the heavily loaded tub in the back of your ute plus the weight of the van on the towball it is important that you get some of that weight moved to the front axle. I wouldn't even consider towing your setup without a WDH.
Cheers, Eddie

rockylizard · Guru

BaldEd wrote:
Brian, when you are setting up your hitch, make sure you have the tug fully fueled up and loaded ready for travel. I have a Colorado7 towing a 16ft single axle Jayco (approx 2000kg, towball weight 260kg) with an Andersen WDH. The 'van tows beautifully but I have found that it is extremely important to tension up the WDH so that weight is restored to the front axle. The difference in steering handling between a <1/4 tank of fuel and a topped off tank can be scary, if the tension was initially set with a low fuel quantity and one adds 60kg of fuel without changing the tension.

With the heavily loaded tub in the back of your ute plus the weight of the van on the towball it is important that you get some of that weight moved to the front axle. I wouldn't even consider towing your setup without a WDH.
Cheers, Eddie

Gday...

Just wondering BaldEd, is the reverse true?

If you fill the tank and then set the WDH does the handling become "scary" when, after driving for a couple of hours, it gets down to 1/4 of a tank?

If what you say is correct, then if you set it all up, loaded for travel, full tank, driver and passenger, and then down the way, you stop and pick up another passenger does that also make it "scary"?

Cheers - John

Dickodownunder · Guru

You should seriously consider a weight distribution hitch.

ANY and EVERY vehicle with a tow bar behind the rear axle will lose weight from the steer axle when towing a pig trailer (caravan)
This is caused by the lever action on the tow bar with the fulcrum being the rear axle...just like a see saw with a fat kid on one end and a thin kid on the other. biggrin biggrin

Although not ideal the best way to compensate for this loss of weight on the steer axle is to use a WDH.

Most WDH units are adjustable and are designed to be set up to suit YOUR combination.

While some on these forums argue that you dont need one in certain circumstances because of their personal observations, you (and they) may never know until one day on a wet road or under circumstances where your vehicle loses steering response or a percentage of front wheel braking due to the weight on the front axle being too light.

Possum3 · Guru

My hobby horse again;
Brian the Caravan Council of Australia have some very interesting Guides for Caravanning and are free to download at www.caravancouncil.com.au/compliance

Should you require any further advice contact Colin Young at CCA and I'm sure he will be able to assist;
CARAVAN COUNCIL OF AUSTRALIA
3 Margaret Street
Parkdale VIC 3195
T: 0409 865 399
F: 03 9587 1828

E-mail: caravancouncil@optusnet.com.au

BaldEd · Veteran Member

rockylizard wrote:
BaldEd wrote:
Brian, when you are setting up your hitch, make sure you have the tug fully fueled up and loaded ready for travel. I have a Colorado7 towing a 16ft single axle Jayco (approx 2000kg, towball weight 260kg) with an Andersen WDH. The 'van tows beautifully but I have found that it is extremely important to tension up the WDH so that weight is restored to the front axle. The difference in steering handling between a <1/4 tank of fuel and a topped off tank can be scary, if the tension was initially set with a low fuel quantity and one adds 60kg of fuel without changing the tension.

With the heavily loaded tub in the back of your ute plus the weight of the van on the towball it is important that you get some of that weight moved to the front axle. I wouldn't even consider towing your setup without a WDH.
Cheers, Eddie
Gday...
Just wondering BaldEd, is the reverse true?
If you fill the tank and then set the WDH does the handling become "scary" when, after driving for a couple of hours, it gets down to 1/4 of a tank?
If what you say is correct, then if you set it all up, loaded for travel, full tank, driver and passenger, and then down the way, you stop and pick up another passenger does that also make it "scary"?
Cheers - John

John,

If the WDH tension was initially set with a full fuel load, it has been my experience that handling is not adversely affected with fuel useage. In fact, I reckon the steering handling improves as more and more weight is effectively transferred to the front axle as the fuel load decreases.

Adding an extra passenger to a rear seat en-route, would have the same scary effect, as adding extra fuel. You will need to increase the WDH tension to compensate for the extra passenger's weight in the rear of the vehicle.

Cheers, Eddie

Dickodownunder · Guru

Please stop over analizing the OP's question and dragging the topic "of topic"

Each combination of tow and towed units will require its own assessment and subsequent weight adjustments to achieve a safe combination for his and other road users safety. Some have already alluded to this.

If the guy asked the question then he deserves a reasonable answer.

He has stated his anticipated loading of his combination so splitting hairs over a fuel tank volume wont provide him with an answer that will offer him the safety that he and others around him, on the road, actually deserve.

If his vehicle really does become unstable as his fuel load empties with a standard vehicle as some have suggested then he needs better advice than he may receive from the keyboard transport engineeers on here....me included.

Maybe he needs a larger and heavier rated tow vehicle.
My personal observations of a Colarado ute is that it will be extremely difficult to move the weight that the OP is going to carry forward so maybe iana should slip out and get pop corn for all of us biggrin biggrin

The weight on the back plus the weight from the tow ball will really need to be assessed accurately for the effect on the lack of weight on the steer axle before anyone begins to be concerned about the transfer of weight when you lose 30 to 40 kilos of weight from a fuel tank and advise him that he doesnt need to consider a WDH

Physics are physics regardless how some percieve their own combinations to work.
Careful consideration of load distribution along with his understanding of how the dynamics that relates to towing a pig traier with a vehicle that is close to the same weight of the trailer is paramount in his safety when on the road with this combination.

Having said that his weights including rear axle weight of his tow vehicle needs to be assessed accurately before his other options are considered.

To support my statement in my post above, if the OP remains within vehicle specifications with regard to GCM and GVM and rear axle weight he should very seriously consider a WDH.

It is really as simple as weigh the vehicle prior to loading and then with it all hooked up weigh it again and assess it from there.

There is no room for assessment when you need the steering or brakes to work as they should in an actual on the road situation.

yobarr · Guru

Dickodownunder wrote:
Please stop over analizing the OP's question and dragging the topic "of topic"

Each combination of tow and towed units will require its own assessment and subsequent weight adjustments to achieve a safe combination for his and other road users safety. Some have already alluded to this.

If the guy asked the question then he deserves a reasonable answer.

He has stated his anticipated loading of his combination so splitting hairs over a fuel tank volume wont provide him with an answer that will offer him the safety that he and others around him, on the road, actually deserve.

If his vehicle really does become unstable as his fuel load empties with a standard vehicle as some have suggested then he needs better advice than he may receive from the keyboard transport engineeers on here....me included.

Maybe he needs a larger and heavier rated tow vehicle.
My personal observations of a Colarado ute is that it will be extremely difficult to move the weight that the OP is going to carry forward so maybe iana should slip out and get pop corn for all of us
The weight on the back plus the weight from the tow ball will really need to be assessed accurately for the effect on the lack of weight on the steer axle before anyone begins to be concerned about the transfer of weight when you lose 30 to 40 kilos of weight from a fuel tank and advise him that he doesnt need to consider a WDH

Physics are physics regardless how some percieve their own combinations to work.
Careful consideration of load distribution along with his understanding of how the dynamics that relates to towing a pig traier with a vehicle that is close to the same weight of the trailer is paramount in his safety when on the road with this combination.

Having said that his weights including rear axle weight of his tow vehicle needs to be assessed accurately before his other options are considered.
To support my statement in my post above, if the OP remains within vehicle specifications with regard to GCM and GVM and rear axle weight he should very seriously consider a WDH.
It is really as simple as weigh the vehicle prior to loading and then with it all hooked up weigh it again and assess it from there.
There is no room for assessment when you need the steering or brakes to work as they should in an actual on the road situation.

Hi Geoff....This is about the best response so far to the original request for help.For heavens sake,Brian is almost 80 years old,and asked a simple question about the possible use of a WDH. Some of the garbage that others have thrown into the discussion would have done little to help this man,and possibly totally confused him. Setting up a Colorado,(GVM 3150kg) to safely tow a 2 ton van (+/-) should be a straight forward process,with or without a WDH. These cars seem to have a reasonably small TBO,(which obviously will increase with a WDH) so perhaps his front axle weight still will be within safe limits? If not,perhaps he could consider fitting a bigger header tank for his radiator? (Obviously I jest,but that suggestion makes about as much sense as some others here...)

Good luck with your rig Brian,and I hope your travels are interesting,safe,and immensely enjoyable! Cheers.

vbc1_75 · Member

you can see WDHs are a passionate subject for some. I had a New Age 16E, towing it with both a 76 series cruiser and 200 series i found using a WDH reduced the amount of pitching (fore and aft). Since moving to a larger dual axle van (3500) I do not use a WDH and find it tows better without it. It does not pitch like the single axle. I suggest you try with, and without if possible.

Enjoy your New Age 16, they are a great van

STRETCH ARMSTRONG · Senior Member

I still think using a WDH is a bandaid solution to overloading your vehicle.

Dickodownunder · Guru

STRETCH ARMSTRONG wrote:
I still think using a WDH is a bandaid solution to overloading your vehicle.

Yes, just like moving the fat kid along the see saw.

Just makes the experience a whole lot more comfortable. biggrin

travelyounger · Guru

Hi John here a good way to find out if you should use wdh is drive your rig fully loaded on a dirt road on level ground with trailer brakes off and hit the brakes about half . If you get understeer I would use them to transfer transfer weight back to the front of your vehicle and you will also have a much better ride when out on those undulating outback highways doing 100 km ph hope this helps Cheers john

rockylizard · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
Hi John here a good way to find out if you should use wdh is drive your rig fully loaded on a dirt road on level ground with trailer brakes off and hit the brakes about half . If you get understeer I would use them to transfer transfer weight back to the front of your vehicle and you will also have a much better ride when out on those undulating outback highways doing 100 km ph hope this helps Cheers john

Gday...

Apologies for sticking me bib in .... but ..... if one is driving along a straight road, level ground, and hit the brakes at 'half' and understeer is induced then it is the brakes that are an issue rather than the need for a WDH.

(with power assisted brakes, most with ABS these days, I guess 'half' means just 'lightly touching the brake pedal' ?)

If the steering wheel is not moved from 'dead ahead' and the vehicle 'understeers', ie front wheels move to either left or right, while the vehicle should continue in a straight line with the brakes applied, then it is brakes that are the problem.

Unless you left out the bit that "when turning into a corner apply the brakes slightly" then maybe I could agree ... but then, if, without the brakes being applied, the vehicle demonstrates understeer when turning into a corner, it would be one, just one, of the many indications of the need for a WDH. There are many, many variables that could be the cause of the induced understeer.

Cheers - John

yobarr · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
Hi John here a good way to find out if you should use wdh is drive your rig fully loaded on a dirt road on level ground with trailer brakes off and hit the brakes about half . If you get understeer I would use them to transfer transfer weight back to the front of your vehicle and you will also have a much better ride when out on those undulating outback highways doing 100 km ph hope this helps Cheers john
Gday...
Apologies for sticking me bib in .... but ..... if one is driving along a straight road, level ground, and hit the brakes at 'half' and understeer is induced then it is the brakes that are an issue rather than the need for a WDH.
(with power assisted brakes, most with ABS these days, I guess 'half' means just 'lightly touching the brake pedal' ?)
If the steering wheel is not moved from 'dead ahead' and the vehicle 'understeers', ie front wheels move to either left or right, while the vehicle should continue in a straight line with the brakes applied, then it is brakes that are the problem.
Unless you left out the bit that "when turning into a corner apply the brakes slightly" then maybe I could agree ... but then, if, without the brakes being applied, the vehicle demonstrates understeer when turning into a corner, it would be one, just one, of the many indications of the need for a WDH. There are many, many variables that could be the cause of the induced understeer.
Cheers - John

Great post John....I do not profess to be any kind of an expert,but my understanding of understeer is that,instead of following the desired line through a corner,the vehicle tends to travel in a more straight ahead direction. Collyn will no doubt have the correct terminology for this action,but I am sure that you cannot get understeer in a straight line!