4 years is not a long life. It sounds like you should also examine your charging methods.
Our first AGMs lasted 5 years free camping for about 8 months every year. The 460Ah of replacements are now 8 1/2 years old and nearing replacement time, but still OK to run 2 compressor fridges overnight and myriads of other electrical stuff.
Proper charging is critical to long life.
Cheers,
Peter

Our 100ahr lasted 6 years doing a total of 6 months per year independent camping.

Secret is to keep it charged up even when we're at home.

Kickass or Australian direct batteries are overrated, light for there Ah buyer beware!

Buffy,
I agree with the other members - 4 years is not good enough especially when you're paying big biccies for them.

Are you sure they are dead? I see you are from Townsville (as I am, but I'm in the very chilly south at the moment). I'll send you a PM with some details however the other members will need to know the set-up you have eg charging arrangements, the load you are expecting to pull out of the batteries, how often you charge them (or is the van on continuous charge at home via mains or solar, etc.
Sometimes by using "old style" chargers, batteries can be brought back into life while a smart charger won't touch them (I've had some experiences in these situations).

One thing you can do simply is look at the batteries - clean/dirty terminals, bulged cases - with the latter, do not do anything with them but use them as boat anchors!

I agree...they should have lasted longer. We put the caravan on a sales yard here in Townsville because we were thinking of selling as we werent using caravan. The dickhead at the caravan place disconnected our batteries...despite the fact we have solar panels on the roof! My partner took them into work (bus company) and tested them and tried charging them in some heavy duty charger...no joy! 

Thanks everyone for your feedback.....will probably buy from a store on eBay.

Gday...

Terry, your knowledge of your products and their applications are renowned and appreciated.

However, too often when some asks the time you provide a detailed, albeit informed, description - with diagrams - of how to design a watch.

But keep sharing the info ... there are some who will understand it even if I don't.

cheers - John

rockylizard wrote:

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Gday...

Terry, your knowledge of your products and their applications are renowned and appreciated.

However, too often when some asks the time you provide a detailed, albeit informed, description - with diagrams - of how to design a watch.

But keep sharing the info ... there are some who will understand it even if I don't.

cheers - John

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 Hi 

An old saying; "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" but here goes 

The way i see it John above has put his finger on one side of the problem with Terrys answers. Perhaps Peter has also. I see it as answering the wrong question all the time. Everyone knows lithium technology is better and will take over. 

The question that a lot of people want to have answered is simple really. How much do I have to spend today to get my simple basic system to work reliably. EG buffy61 , not a technical dissertation about discharging at C1 (I hear people asking; WTF is that ???). There were lots of answers about the life he should have expected and reasons to explore to improve it. Good !   

So there seems to be great  mystery about the cost of lithium. I posted some costs from a supplier that I knew about, but Terry had a put down for that.  On another thread another poster said he had fitted 350Ahr of lithium and he was satisified following a Terry post, but no costings ?? That is what people want to know. Not a whole of life dodgey comparison with a genny thrown in for more cost padding. 

So Terry if you want to get brownie points from the punters put up some LI costs when someone want to replace some LA batteries. IMHO.

If someone want to set up an ultimate system in their rig then contact Terry direct and take the cheque book. 

Jaahn    

Here is another link to a LI site, that I have no association with except having used them and they put their prices there.  https://www.lfp.net.au/shop 

PS Terry I do understand C1 so no need to explain it thanks 

-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 3rd of August 2018 02:43:23 PM

Between a rock and a hard place there Jaahn. If I post prices I get accused of using the place as an advertising spot, just been jabbed with the salesman line a few posts back. I give a price for a basic battery system and then I get attacked for false advertising or something because I won't fit a full bells and whistles system for the same cost as well as the other 50 things they want done at the same time. Trust me, we have had few of them and one that still owes us quite a bit because she thought the other weeks worth of work she wanted done as well should have been thrown in like installing a household fridge in place of the 3 way and rebuilding half the cupboards and wiring so the microwave could be retained

If I quote a price for a system that suits one customer it might not do what the next one wants or be a heap more than they want so a waste of money.

We don't install drop in systems, we try to fix the mess people end up with after they bought a drop in set up but it always ends up as a compromise and the end cost is way more than the original custom set up would have cost and doesn't have the same technical and product back up.

No doubt this will be seen as product promotion and I'll get attacked for that, seems no matter what I do here I'm not doing it right, I don't promote the business name here for that very reason, but I do offer help to anyone who asks either on the open forum or via PM, should I stop doing that?

 

T1 Terry 

Terry said....

. some where around $1,000 per advertised 100Ah, so $4,000 for 400Ah. The battery management cost roughly $780,.........You don't use a DC to DC charger...... If you already have a Victron BMV or a suitable battery monitoring system you don't need one of those,

Thanks.

So. $4,780 for 400Ah with BMS?

I don't use a DC-DC charger, but I do charge direct from the alternator via a 200A VSR if solar is poor and I do use the house batteries to crank the engine (again, via the VSR) if it is very cold (no glow plugs in the Perkins). I would expect to be able to maintain those capabilities.

EDIT... The PL60 sees and records those currents, both in and out via an existing 200A shunt and PLS.

I don't have a Victron BMV because the PL60 provides complete in/out/SOC information. Why would I need anything else?

Does that information change what I need?

Is that lithium BMS set and forget?

Cheers,

Peter

 

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 3rd of August 2018 04:32:57 PM

My old Chrystal set works fine . Lol . No batteries ! Kiddies argue over that !! Lol

Jaahn wrote:

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Gee Terry that did not seem so hard. I do not think you will be dammed for that post 

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Certainly not by me.

Cheers,

Peter

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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Terry said....

. some where around $1,000 per advertised 100Ah, so $4,000 for 400Ah. The battery management cost roughly $780,.........You don't use a DC to DC charger...... If you already have a Victron BMV or a suitable battery monitoring system you don't need one of those,

Thanks.

So. $4,780 for 400Ah with BMS?

I don't use a DC-DC charger, but I do charge direct from the alternator via a 200A VSR if solar is poor and I do use the house batteries to crank the engine (again, via the VSR) if it is very cold (no glow plugs in the Perkins). I would expect to be able to maintain those capabilities.

EDIT... The PL60 sees and records those currents, both in and out via an existing 200A shunt and PLS.

I don't have a Victron BMV because the PL60 provides complete in/out/SOC information. Why would I need anything else?

Does that information change what I need?

Is that lithium BMS set and forget?

Cheers,

Peter

 

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 3rd of August 2018 04:32:57 PM

---

Not completely set and forget, it will alarm if things need attention like low state of charge or battery voltage, excessively low cell voltage, excessively high cell voltage, high battery voltage. It will automatically disconnect the battery if these alarms are ignored or you just weren't there to respond and stays disconnected till manually reset. We chose this method because we considered it better the owner knows there is a problem that needs attention rather than being hidden unless you probed for it and the owner wouldn't know if the fridge had been off for a period of time so they could check the ice cubes in the freezer bag to see if their has been a defrost.

As far as more information required, probably not if you have separate voltage sensing wires to the PL60 and you are using no other auto charging devices. I assume the VSR is manually controlled so it was only turned on when needed to save the alternator from overheating. If the cables etc can handle 200 amps with little voltage drop then 200 amps or more will flow into the lithium battery if the voltage difference is there and that can be quite a load for any alternator.

As far as the Plasmatronics shunt, the limit is 200 amps unless you add more shunts and paralleling shunt adaptors and the controllers have no Peukert Factor nor charge efficiency adjustment like the Victron BMV does and these are different between different battery chemistries. I believe you know Lesley & Eric that swapped over to lithium batteries maybe 5 yrs or so back, they had issues with the Plasmatronics getting out of phase with remaining battery capacity and often reading up to 125% SOC due to these error factors, so for the $300 for a Victron BMV it seemed to be a good investment.

Most that have the Plasmatronics shunt set up already now use it to record the charging only from all devices so they know just how much is coming in, the Victron only shows what is going to or from the battery so what is used by the loads directly is not shown. The Plasmatronics history is a bonus as well because daily min and max battery voltage is recorded along with charging and even that is broken down into internal (solar throughput) and external that could be battery to battery or from a mains charger or even a wind turbine if someone wants to use one of those. Mostly for those who want to know a lot of info. Those that just want to flick the switch and the light comes on etc have no need for such things, again, a system designed to suit the user. There is even a feature that can record and produce a graph of each cell voltage 24/7 for a 7 day period if that sort of stuff interests the user or if trying to fault find a problem, it allows the battery to be ruled out or pin-point just where to look.

Again, this wasn't intended as a promotional post but I might have got a tad carried away

 

T1 Terry

Aussie Batteries sell a good product with their GIANT range at a fair price. Good warranty plus they are Ritar batteries.

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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Thanks Terry...

 It will automatically disconnect the battery if these alarms are ignored....

[quote= That seems OK for the house battery, but what sort of disconnect do you use - it would need to be 300A capable - and I presume there would be no risk in not attending to the problem for some months - is that acceptable and safe?

It does raise another question too.... when we go away for extended periods, I bridge the VSR (which I leave open, because it consumes power) to keep the crank battery in parallel with the house battery and I also add the crank from Margaret's shopping trolley to the mix so they are all kept topped up and ready to go for when we come home. The vehicles are in a shed with some clear roof panels and that is enough for the solar on the OKA to do its job. ]

Possibly getting a bit complicated for this thread, but it can reasonably easily set up to disconnect the lithium house battery to protect it while leaving the start battery connected so it remains charged via the solar, lithium batteries don't like to be held at a float voltage for extended periods without ever seeing a load because it can damage them. Simply dropping into float mode during the day and then under load over night to run say a fridge etc and then solar recharge the next day and again returning to float voltage is a completely different thing that some people can't seem to get their head around, lithium batteries excel at this type of work. Basically, they love to work and work hard compared to the way lead acid batteries are treated, they don't like being treated like pets and the whole definition of cycle life is different between lead acid and lithium .... I've started getting carried away again eh

The battery isolation can handle a constant 350 amps at up to 800v but the 100,000 cycle life starts to drop off over the 24v mark, 800v @ 350 amps only has a cycle life of around 150 cycles but that is way outside anything likely to be experienced in an RV. Current carrying capacity over time start to drop off at around the 450 amp mark from 10,000 seconds down to 1,000 secs at around the 500 amp mark and 20 secs at around the 2,000 amp mark, but that is mostly due to cable size and heat rise.

Any other issues there?

I assume the VSR is manually controlled so it was only turned on when needed to save the alternator from overheating. If the cables etc can handle 200 amps with little voltage drop then 200 amps or more will flow into the lithium battery if the voltage difference is there and that can be quite a load for any alternator.

[quote= I usually manually control the alternator, but will generally leave it charging until the house voltage equals the alternator voltage (14.3V) at which point the alternator switches off, the charge light on the OKA comes on and the tacho stops working. At that point I manually open the VSR. The alternator is 85A and I typically start with 70A (according to the PL60) to the house batteries (via a 70mm2 cable). I have never had any alternator overheating issues.]

70mmsq cables will carry a lot more than 70 amps without a voltage drop and lithium batteries do not have the high internal resistance that lead acid batteries do, so until the voltage equalises a lot of current will flow from one battery to the other meaning the alternator will be at max output while this is happening and this will overheat an alternator not built with additional fans and over size heat sinks to get rid of the heat ... but your call, you turn it off when ever you want. There would need to be an interrupt control available to the lithium battery control system because 14.3v is way too high for a 12v lithium battery if you want a long service life ... all fairly easily buolt into the custom designed/built system, but again, another example of one design not fitting all applications.

 

As far as the Plasmatronics shunt, the limit is 200 amps unless you add more shunts and paralleling shunt adaptors and the controllers have no Peukert Factor nor charge efficiency adjustment like the Victron BMV does and these are different between different battery chemistries. I believe you know Lesley & Eric that swapped over to lithium batteries maybe 5 yrs or so back, they had issues with the Plasmatronics getting out of phase with remaining battery capacity and often reading up to 125% SOC due to these error factors, so for the $300for a Victron BMV it seemed to be a good investment.

Not sure what you are saying here as to whether I would need the Victron BMS, or not.  I would not be keen to add it, but I would not want to loose any more of the accuracy of the PL60 SOC readout, which I find to be quite adequate.

Most that have the Plasmatronics shunt set up already now use it to record the charging only from all devices so they know just how much is coming in, the Victron only shows what is going to or from the battery so what is used by the loads directly is not shown.

My current 200A shunt shows both incoming and out going power which is counted by the PL60 as external load or charge.

Cheers,

Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Saturday 4th of August 2018 03:12:32 PM

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 As far as the Plasmatronics shunt and the 200 amp capacity, how does it handle the 300 amps plus required for the start assist? Even close to running at the 200 amp upper limit some heat is generated and this effects the shunt accuracy as the use of an inverter larger than 2,000w has shown in the past, but if you are happy with the accuracy that it provides then there is no need to add another battery monitoring system. It can always be fitted later anyway so not a serious stumbling block.

 

T1 Terry