Wind power while you drive

Eaglemax · Guru

Wind power while you drive

iana · Guru

This could be interesting, on my way to get some pop corn.

Izabarack · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Your thoughts?
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/01/strap-this-wind-turbine-to-your-electric-car-and-you-can-drive-forever/

Note the date of the article. Written by someone who has no grasp of the Laws of Physics. They probably believe in Faeries at the bottom of the garden, too.

Iza

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

Nothing to see here folks, move along please ! biggrin biggrin

Jaahn

Desert Dweller · Guru

We experience a fair bit of wind power now & again.

Particularly after eating baked beans or fried onions. biggrin biggrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDVrmSEZEKg

-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Wednesday 15th of August 2018 08:05:02 AM

Eaglemax · Guru

Well, I do understand the negativity based on scepticism from common knowledge to date about wind power for caravans.

I have a different view. The advantages are lightweight, simple, able to add easily to solar wiring etc. Even jet commercial airplanes have an emergency turbine that drops down to power their electronics in case of engine failure.
So I'll keep thinking about the concept.

T1 Terry · Guru

It is amazing just how much wind power is required to drive a useful output wind turbine and just how fast the wind speed actually needs to be. Take these units as an example https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/142722590674?ul_noapp=true the 10m/s equates out to 36km/h of direct wind, not wind that has been disturbed by passing over an RV or through a tree etc To get an idea, try putting your hand out the window when the car is travelling at around 40km/h, make sure you are on a country road and it's safe to do so first though Now consider the area of your hand and multiply that by the area of each of the blades in the example above. At any given time one blade is at right angles to the wind and 2 blades are at 45* to the wind, so the area of 2 blades is about the area facing the wind full on ..... that is a lot of pressure to develop 400w of electricity. Can you imagine standing out in that wind? Not particularly comfortable and not somewhere you would want to be parked up for very long.
Now consider that much additional load on the vehicle as you drive down the road to get a whole 400w of energy produced. It doesn't take much thought to realise that amount of wind load is a lot more than 400w so a lot more than 400w of energy would be required to overcome the extra load.
Brian (Homeless on this forum) has one on his houseboat, still hasn't generated any useful output to date, but it sure is eye catching :lol: I looking at getting a few and using them to power a remote pump in the lagoon out the front of our house where there is a wide open area for the wind to get up a bit of speed/power and a community project "Welcome to Mannum" wall lighting at the top of the hill coming into Mannum where the wind can get serious at times. I have no illusions that these will provide enough electrical power on their own so they will also be backed up with solar power that is a proven product, but they should be eye catching all the same biggrin

T1 Terry

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

In that link it provides this information about the turbine -

Starting wind speed: 1.5m/s = 1.5X60=90metres/minute - 90m/m X 60=5,500m/hour=5.4Kph
Rated wind speed10m/s = 10X60=600metres/minute - 600m/m X 60= 36,000m/hour=36Kph
Safe wind speed: 45m/s = 45X60=2,700metres/minute - 2,700m/m X 60 = 162,000m/hour=162Kph

Gonna need a bitta wind I reckon.

Cheers - John

T1 Terry · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
In that link it provides this information about the turbine -
Starting wind speed: 1.5m/s = 1.5X60=90metres/minute - 90m/m X 60=5,500m/hour=5.4Kph
Rated wind speed10m/s = 10X60=600metres/minute - 600m/m X 60= 36,000m/hour=36Kph
Safe wind speed: 45m/s = 45X60=2,700metres/minute - 2,700m/m X 60 = 162,000m/hour=162Kph
Gonna need a bitta wind I reckon.
Cheers - John

I think we will be safe with the 160km/h upper limit and as long as it spins it will look good :lol: Mannum is known for its winds in the late afternoon so on top of the hill it might actually contribute a bit and it's rare not to have any wind over a 24 hr period travelling up or down the river, but I doubt it would reach the 36km/h requirement very often so the solar will be the main power generator for each application.

T1 Terry

Eaglemax · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
It is amazing just how much wind power is required to drive a useful output wind turbine and just how fast the wind speed actually needs to be. Take these units as an example https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/142722590674?ul_noapp=true the 10m/s equates out to 36km/h of direct wind, not wind that has been disturbed by passing over an RV or through a tree etc To get an idea, try putting your hand out the window when the car is travelling at around 40km/h, make sure you are on a country road and it's safe to do so first though Now consider the area of your hand and multiply that by the area of each of the blades in the example above. At any given time one blade is at right angles to the wind and 2 blades are at 45* to the wind, so the area of 2 blades is about the area facing the wind full on ..... that is a lot of pressure to develop 400w of electricity. Can you imagine standing out in that wind? Not particularly comfortable and not somewhere you would want to be parked up for very long.
Now consider that much additional load on the vehicle as you drive down the road to get a whole 400w of energy produced. It doesn't take much thought to realise that amount of wind load is a lot more than 400w so a lot more than 400w of energy would be required to overcome the extra load.
Brian (Homeless on this forum) has one on his houseboat, still hasn't generated any useful output to date, but it sure is eye catching :lol: I looking at getting a few and using them to power a remote pump in the lagoon out the front of our house where there is a wide open area for the wind to get up a bit of speed/power and a community project "Welcome to Mannum" wall lighting at the top of the hill coming into Mannum where the wind can get serious at times. I have no illusions that these will provide enough electrical power on their own so they will also be backed up with solar power that is a proven product, but they should be eye catching all the same

T1 Terry

Thankyou T1 Terry, much appreciated. I take your points and have accepted that it is likely NOT feasible a system to rely on in terms of the drag associated with using wind power while driving. I'll still pursue that a little though. I'm checking out barrell type turbines with the focus on utilizing the massive amount of air that goes over the van while driving. Such a unit, upon stopping for camping could be hinged quite easily to a vertical position then raised with a telescopic pole that is secured inside the caravan wall cavity. See this link and my drawing where wind is funneled through to the turbine. It reminds me of the 1970's Valiant station wagon (see pic)whereby a roof top design at the back thrusted wind down over the back window keeping it clear of dust...that was the theory.

https://www.leadingedgepower.com/shop/store/wind-turbines/vertical-axis-wind-turbines/le-v150-vertical-axis-turbine-1121392.html

You provided a great explanation and it gives me some foundation as to the negatives of wind power let alone the naïve expectations.. Besides, while driving my alternator has more than enough energy to charge my batteries.

In terms of bush camping (we use CP's once a week only, less if we can), with weight restrictions on sub 850kg caravan, an extra 100amp battery is also out of the question as it would eat into our load of water or food, then its extra trips to the shops= less efficiency. So with one 100amp AGM battery, 120W solar on the roof and 90W portable solar any extra charging from a campsite is a bonus. Lithium is out of the question due to pension budgets. A small wind turbine would be operating 24hrs a day if camping and as small a charge as it might be, could be significant overall in the scheme of things.

Other complications I've just read are height. With a propeller unit telescopic pole is weight, tie down cables and so on. As my next van is in the planning stage a telescopic pole (lightweight tent poles) mounted inside an internal wall cavity and raised from the top would be a bonus say making the top 4 metres from the ground. Still not enough but weight wise reasonable. I prefer the barrel concept.

Our two main current draws are waeco CF18 fridge/freezer used only as a fridge, 12V CPAP(7-8hours) and 50cm TV (5 hours at evening). The rest is LED lights and 2x 12V pumps not used much. Nevertheless the battery only 3 years old does get down to 12V. However, recently I've installed a isolator on the car battery and inverter with smart charger on the caravan so we have an emergency charging system if in strife by idling the engine. So, what am I seeking? Assistance to the solar charging that will minimalise starting the car engine up and will keep topping up the AGM battery while camping so it reaches 11.8V less often.

Weight and cost are the issues but I'm prepared to do the unusual if it is feasible in my eyes, that's what I'm like, if it doesn't work, back to the drawing board. Maybe I'll experiment with model airplane propellers with different pitches or PVC pipe cut up into a barrel unit design of my own. My mind never stops inventing. or improving on designs others have tried. Unlike some that see it as a waste of time ...its my time :) but I like constructive suggestions like yours.

Mike Harding · Guru

A nice theory Eaglemax but, sadly, there is only one rule regarding energy in physics:

There's nowt for nowt.

Sorry :)

T1 Terry · Guru

The first attached image is much like the ones that were installed on the roof of the Shellharbour Square complex (Illawarra area NSW) but after many problems with high winds damaging them they finally removed them I believe .... well last time we visited the area they weren't there any more. Here is a link that might help you with your designing a wind turbine and lots of other interesting stuff www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/home.asp to keep inventive hands busy for at least a few life times :lol: From there the links can send you into a world of amazing constructions and it is interesting to see most of them are Aussie based designs cause we are an inventive lot.
You will no doubt read in the many articles there the science behind why an aeroplane prop is all wrong for a wind generator and the science/engineering problems related to vertical vs horizontal wind generators, but vertical wind generators have always interested me so probably a case of fashion over form drags me back to wanting to get one to work reasonably well.
I remember an episode of the "Junk Yard Challenge" where there were 2 different design wind powered grinders built and put to the test against each other and the over all results left possibly as many questions as answers .....

T1 Terry

Eaglemax · Guru

yes, have been reading that site "backshed" this morning. Ok, I'll go and invent lol. here is that pic I drew this morning. I'll return with the results when its done. lol

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Wednesday 15th of August 2018 02:22:21 PM

Jaahn · Guru

Hi Eaglemax smile

Go for it I say. It is your time and effort hmm But I always try to look at the theory of things to see if there is something to learn, first, and to see which way to go in modifying the apparatus. Just saves effort for me. Look at the old wind mills. They can be huge to pump a bit of water that a few solar panel will do now.

As regards the power necessary to generate power, does anyone here remember the old fashioned bike wheel generators. when you pushed them on to the tire it was like putting the brake on confuse And that was to get enough power to light a couple of globes like candles. You put them on to slow yourself going down hills. No wonder they went out of fashion when batteries became cheaper.

My point being the power required to get something out of a wind turbine is greater than you think, and not easily achieved by a simple device. As Terry said they look good though biggrin

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 15th of August 2018 02:33:54 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

Have you thought about the same design as the Valiant wind deflector you mentioned earlier and placing the drum turbine just over the rear of the van to utilise the air speed at that point feeding into the drum blade drive side and the partial vacuum developed behind the van creating a draw on the exhaust side of the vanes. I expect they would need to be designed some how creating an exhaust function that wasn't via the inside of the drum to gain anything worthwhile from the pressure differential .... I have visions of a mega phone type apparatus attached to each end of the drum to exhaust the wind back out of the drum and into the lower pressure area created behind the van ..... at least you'd get some attention from anyone following you :lol:

T1 Terry

Eaglemax · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
Hi Eaglemax
Go for it I say. It is your time and effort But I always try to look at the theory of things to see if there is something to learn, first, and to see which way to go in modifying the apparatus. Just saves effort for me. Look at the old wind mills. They can be huge to pump a bit of water that a few solar panel will do now.
As regards the power necessary to generate power, does anyone here remember the old fashioned bike wheel generators. when you pushed them on to the tire it was like putting the brake on And that was to get enough power to light a couple of globes like candles. You put them on to slow yourself going down hills. No wonder they went out of fashion when batteries became cheaper.
My point being the power required to get something out of a wind turbine is greater than you think, and not easily achieved by a simple device. As Terry said they look good though
Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 15th of August 2018 02:33:54 PM

they were called dynamos Jaahn. And they were great for fitness and a little headlight on the front and a tiny red light on the back. Bringing back memories mate. I've thought about such a system on a caravan, I mean a trailing arm under the van with a turbine head on it but anything like that would void some law somewhere.

Eaglemax · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Have you thought about the same design as the Valiant wind deflector you mentioned earlier and placing the drum turbine just over the rear of the van to utilise the air speed at that point feeding into the drum blade drive side and the partial vacuum developed behind the van creating a draw on the exhaust side of the vanes. I expect they would need to be designed some how creating an exhaust function that wasn't via the inside of the drum to gain anything worthwhile from the pressure differential .... I have visions of a mega phone type apparatus attached to each end of the drum to exhaust the wind back out of the drum and into the lower pressure area created behind the van ..... at least you'd get some attention from anyone following you :lol:

T1 Terry

Good ideas, love them. My drawing doesn't show that the scoop would also cover the top half of the barrel so the area the wind would strike the negative curve would be a vacuum. As the van will be a retro design I don't want to impede that attractiveness too much however, a scoop not unlike that Valiant whereby it looks part of the roof might have merit. The sloping roof will also force rain towards the rear where it will be caught at the bottom of the rear wall and drain into the water tank. How green! All I need is a lightweight composting system that can generate power from combustion.... Elon Musk would be inspired.

I'll think about that vacuum aspect Terry.

Eaglemax · Guru

Using a solar panel slightly raised at the front as a scoop.

Meredith · Senior Member

Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.

Eaglemax · Guru

Meredith wrote:
Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.

Hi Meredith and thankyou for that information. However, I think your husband it totally wrong in that going downhills with no accelerator at all the turbine would be working and no petrol being used.....lol. :)

T1 Terry · Guru

Meredith wrote:
Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.

The idea in the Gizmag article is pure nonsense, but the idea of utilising waste enegy isn't. So it's more about utilising waste energy rather than creating additional drag. The drag is already created by dragging the caravan through the air so the design needs to utilise the added drag created by the void left behind the van by deflecting some of the air to fill the void while extracting some of the wind energy and convert it to electrical energy. The amount of drag behind a van is quite significant so anything that can utilise that waste energy is a step forward.

I remember in the early days of turbo charging there was a line of thought that it was simply creating a restriction in an otherwise well designed method of extracting waste combustion gasses, not many still holding onto that line of thought these days but there are still some.

The idea of spraying water into the combustion chamber via the intake was considered nonsense because it simply cooled a fire you had gone to a great deal of trouble to get as hot as possible, until F1 took it on and the 4 cyl wiz-bangs won Bathurst against the big cube V8 monsters using a combination of turbo charging and water injection in much smaller capacity engines.

New ideas always meet with resistance, not all ideas will actually work but until it is tried the true result is an unknown, the general consensus at one time was that a heavier than air machine could never fly wink

T1 Terry

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Depends on regulator type ? I m going .. By .. Whereâs my popcorn ?? Lol

T1 Terry · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Meredith wrote:
Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.
Hi Meredith and thankyou for that information. However, I think your husband it totally wrong in that going downhills with no accelerator at all the turbine would be working and no petrol being used.....lol. :)

That is known as regenerative braking and there are far easier ways to harness that wasted energy, but you do need the right chemistry battery to store that energy ready for reuse wink biggrin

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Depends on regulator type ? I m going .. By .. Whereâs my popcorn ?? Lol

you haven't eaten it all ready have you? http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64721377/losing-night-power/?page=2#comment-64762364

iana · Guru

I'm going to mount a small wind powered generator in the bottom of my jocks, the way I am, I reckon I could recharge my mobile in little under an hour.

Eaglemax · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Eaglemax wrote:
Meredith wrote:
Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.
Hi Meredith and thankyou for that information. However, I think your husband it totally wrong in that going downhills with no accelerator at all the turbine would be working and no petrol being used.....lol. :)
That is known as regenerative braking and there are far easier ways to harness that wasted energy, but you do need the right chemistry battery to store that energy ready for reuse

T1 Terry

Like how those rubberband planes would wind up and turn the prop. I'm on my way to the hardware for a damn big rubber band lol.

Eaglemax · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Meredith wrote:
Showed my husband, an aeronautical engineer this article and he had a good laugh. As he stated the amount of drag that the wind turbine would create would in fact mean you wouldn't be able to drive as far before you ran out of power.
The idea in the Gizmag article is pure nonsense, but the idea of utilising waste enegy isn't. So it's more about utilising waste energy rather than creating additional drag. The drag is already created by dragging the caravan through the air so the design needs to utilise the added drag created by the void left behind the van by deflecting some of the air to fill the void while extracting some of the wind energy and convert it to electrical energy. The amount of drag behind a van is quite significant so anything that can utilise that waste energy is a step forward.
I remember in the early days of turbo charging there was a line of thought that it was simply creating a restriction in an otherwise well designed method of extracting waste combustion gasses, not many still holding onto that line of thought these days but there are still some.
The idea of spraying water into the combustion chamber via the intake was considered nonsense because it simply cooled a fire you had gone to a great deal of trouble to get as hot as possible, until F1 took it on and the 4 cyl wiz-bangs won Bathurst against the big cube V8 monsters using a combination of turbo charging and water injection in much smaller capacity engines.
New ideas always meet with resistance, not all ideas will actually work but until it is tried the true result is an unknown, the general consensus at one time was that a heavier than air machine could never fly

T1 Terry

I see what you ate saying Terry . Ive gone away from the roof mounted barrel. However based on the vacuum behind the van facts, I think one mounted at the bottom of the rear of the van resembling a large bumper bar or poly pipe, using air coming from under the van.

Got a headache. Maybe popcorn can help?

Cupie · Guru

All this negativity about the effectiveness makes me wonder why all those Yachts in the mooring basin have little wind generators. I thought that they may be used to float the batteries and such like.

Izabarack · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
..., I do understand the negativity based on scepticism ....

So I'll keep thinking about the concept.

No scepticism here. The proposal just will not work. Clear waste of time and effort to keep thinking on the concept. If the idea had merit, lots of really smart people would have built such systems long long ago.

Iza

Izabarack · Guru

Cupie wrote:
All this negativity about the effectiveness makes me wonder why all those Yachts in the mooring basin have little wind generators.

Different concept. The Yachties' wind generators capture energy from the wind blowing on them. Using energy to create wind results in a loop that disappears up its own fundamental orifice.

Iza