Pajero Fish Tails

miroku12g · Senior Member

Pajero Fish Tails

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Now that would be offputting. hmm

I guess I will be the first to ask the expected questions -

what tyres - LT, AT or HT;
what tyre pressures in vehicle - front and rear;
what tyre pressures in van;
what is the towball mass (weight);
have you tried to load the van in different configurations - shift stuff over axles, forward or rearward;
what pressures are you running in the air bags;
have the shock absorbers been checked and confirmed as good condition;
how loaded is the Pajero;
do you have a roof rack - is it overloaded/badly loaded.

In the end, after being inundated with advice from here, it will be experimentation.

Cheers - and good luck - John

Baz421 · Guru

A bit more info may help ie

VAM MAKE,TYPE AND ATM

actual weight of van as is loaded, ie full h20 tanks etc

ball weight

do you use WDH

what pressure in airbags

is the Paj/van combo level, ie the tow hitch the right height (phot would be good too)

how is it loaded, where is the weighty stuff ie books etc stored

If the Paj is Ok then look to van issues as you allude to

PS Missed tyre pressures,, very important,, Paj rear tyres and van.

ie My LC79 Landcruiser rear tyres need 60psi and van 40psi other wise I get tyre induced "sway",,,, it is real and you can feel it

-- Edited by Baz421 on Tuesday 1st of January 2019 12:39:19 PM

-- Edited by Baz421 on Tuesday 1st of January 2019 12:42:03 PM

Wanderlust · Veteran Member

Possibly too much weight at the rear of the van.
Very dangerous situation - plenty of youtube videos regarding sway problems.
Do a search on this forum for SWAY for lots more info.

PeterInSa · Guru

Would also Check:
The Toe In/Out of the Caravan Wheels
The Distance between the Hitch point and the caravan wheels, should be the same.

Jaybird · Veteran Member

My Territory started doing that and it turned out that 1 shock was failing and the rebound was different to the other. Scared the hell out of me.

Hetho · Senior Member

Definitely sounds like a weight problem, too heavy in the rear; or the Tug is to light or Tug wheel base is too short for length for the van.

The list of things to check provided by members comments are all important and should be checked.

Regards.

Hetho

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Probably related to excessive yaw inertia of the caravan caused by inappropriate load distribution.
www.youtube.com/watch
Concentrate as much mass over the wheels as possible instead of at the ends of the van.
Cheers,
Peter

dogbox · Guru

try going over a weighbridge post some weights front and rear on tug hooked up and unhooked would be a good place to start then maybe you will get some help

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Lotz of the usual obvious and good advice.

However, I don't think Dave is saying the van is actually swaying/yawing ... his comment is - "....on a straight highway it sometimes tends to feel like a fishtail as if the van is steering the car, I can feel the movement through my back and seat......"

To add to the usual advice so far profferred it could be something as PeterInSA suggested ... alignment/toe-in/out of wheels/axle/s causing the van to have a constant/frequent/occasional, minor "squirm" which 'refers' through the A-frame>towbar>vehicle>Dave's back/seat and therefore his bum.

Praps Dave might elaborate on just what he means - is it van swaying/yawing (constantly/occasionally), 'squirming/vibrating' (constantly/occasionally) through his seat, etc etc.

Jest sayin' hmm

Cheers - John

Kebbin · Guru

Also the Pajero has some unusual Towball & ATM weight allowances from memory.

Ron-D · Guru

If it was my van I would just get the basics right as others have said great and obvious advice ,good align ment ,sensible towball weight ,with our car I have atendacy to place heavier items on the back seat of the car in front of the rear axel,if your alignment is perfect between car and van ,you have the correct ball weight ,the van is loaded correctly,what else is left car suspension ,caravan suspension issues,maybe a weight distribution hitch might help ,air Bags. I have heard that to much air pressure can cause problems as well ,good luck lets hnow how you get on...

PeterD · Guru

To me, it sounds like the van is not the most stable. The van is pushing the tug around. As above, I suggest that you get the rig weighed. If the ball weight is not nearly 10% of the total weight then there is cause for concern regarding the stability.

If you are using WDH and the bars are tensiond too tightly then there is cause for concern there as well.

Possum3 · Guru

Check out technical information at www.caravancouncil.com.au/technical-articles and you can download for freeYou may be able to find your answer here.
You can speak to their Chief Engineer Mr Colin Young his phone number is listed at Contact Details

If you have ALKO ESC fitted, try running without it switched on - I had problems with mine it was causing one wheel to brake .

yobarr · Guru

Baz421 wrote:
PS Missed tyre pressures,, very important,, Paj rear tyres and van.ie My LC79 Landcruiser rear tyres need 60psi and van 40psi other wise I get tyre induced "sway",,,, it is real and you can feel it.

Tyres...And that says it all! I had exactly the same experience with my LC79,and I too run 60psi in the rear,with 36psi in the steer.The van was tried at 40psi all round,but I when I experimented with 45psi in the vans rear axle,and 40psi in the front,the whole thing settled down dramatically.But you MUST get the van level,or slightly...very slightly...nose down.Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Kebbin wrote:
Also the Pajero has some unusual Towball & ATM weight allowances from memory.

That is indeed true.Up to 2500kg ATM,allowed ball weight is 250kg,but if you wish to tow a van with an ATM above 2500kg,you are limited to a ball weight of 180kg.....spare me! Anybody who thinks that that they can run around with only 6% TBM needs a crash course in physics,and a GOOD insurance policy.Cheers

Radar · Guru

miroku12g wrote:
Hi all,
any ideas on what is happening when i hook my van to my Pajero 2012 model GXL, on a straight highway it sometimes tends to feel like a fishtail as if the van is steering the car, I can feel the movement through my back and seat, first i thought it was the grooves in the road made by trucks [Bruce H/Way, Sunshine Coast to Gateway] I have had fitted on the car new bushes on all four corners, Air bags on the rear, full wheel alignment, two new tyres on the front, on the van tandem axle just two new tyres at this stage.
I had the car checked by Pedders who reported the worn bushes and replaced at their recommendations,but still sways left to right, but not all the time ? which seems strange really ? it seems to do this at any giving speed, 50kph or 90kph makes no difference.
Any info will be much appreciated
Regards
Frustrated
Dave & Maz

Hi Dav

My thoughts only, no numbers after my name. Just plain experience. I don't use wdh's and my weights are good.

If thats your caravan in your avatar? Then it would be very easy to overload the tow ball as I found with our similar configuration (door in front of axle, good set up). Check ball weight first.

Second thing airbags, great item for helping to level the car a bit, 12 to 18 pound of air, its not much air but it will do wonders.

If I am doing super big kilometers for the day I generally go to the highest recommended air pressure by the cars manifacturer plus a couple. They spent the money testing.

Short hauls say 200 kilometers for the day, I just just leave them down, I am only driving slow and steady enjoying the scenery. Stopping for morning coffee. A photo or 2 so the tyres are not going to get hot.

The caravan tyres pressure I run the same as the rear of the car plus a couple pound.

Yes where trucks drive along our highways they do seem to tram line the road, was told that the front camber on my car could be out a bit which don't help, cost for the after market part is $800 plus fitting maybe one day. It could be the "camber". Not always adjustable. Tyre size can accelerate this problem.

I had a French car once, independent suspension all round and the car was getting on a bit in age and I found the problem with its rear steering to be with it was a worn locating rod on the rear, so double check the rear location arms. Your car having coil sprung suspension would have locating arms.

Hope this is of some help. Ralph.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Dave was online about 45mins ago hmm ... I guess he must have got a bit overwhelmed with all the advice and decided to absorb it all rather than provide any further info.

It would be good if he would elaborate on whether the problem is the van swaying/yawing or 'squirming' and causing a "feeling" that it is moving around a bit.

At the moment, I reckon, collectively, we have exhausted all the options given the limited information we are responding to.

cheers - John

Greg 1 · Guru

Mitsubishi also recommend using a WDH for the Paj. I am wondering if one is being used or not. Using one made a big difference to my Paj that I had before swapping to a Ranger.

Dickodownunder · Guru

Some great advice, questions and suggestions.

As has been mentioned Pajeros do have a unique set of towing weights which do depend on varying factors.
First up find the specs for your vehicle and record each legal requirement on paper then load your van and attend the nearest registered weigh bridge.
Record the weights of all the axle groups and the tow ball weight from the weigh bridge and assess wether your vehicle can actually tow your van within legal limits.
If it falls within the legal specifications then try to distribute the load to suit these requirements.
Mitsubishi make it extremely difficult for owners as their specifications for some Pajeros do have a lesser tow ball weight if the van is heavier. This has been pointed out above and it may be a problem that you find evident.

There is a member on here that did do some research on the Pajero and with reference to upgrading the Pajero to legally handle the extra weight. I hope he may read this and provide you with an extra set of options.

If your weights are within reasonable limits please dont disregard the use of a WDH should the use of one be recommended by your vehicle manufacturer, as, apart from the views of some, they may just provide an answer to your stability problem.

Disclaimer:
I am not recommending the use of a WDH if the manufacturer of your vehicle advises against its use.

PeterInSa · Guru

Re ( I when I experimented with 45psi in the vans rear axle,and 40psi in the front,)

Our van has a plated tyre Pressure of 38psi. I run this in front and back tyres of our Tandem van and monitor via a TPMS. From memory the tyres have a max of 60psi.

Am wary of varying the tyre pressure as above 45/40 on the Tar just in case of an accident and the Insurance company have a "get out" because I am not running the correct tyre pressures ie the higher pressures contributed to sway and rollover (even if they did'nt), along with the passing of a B Double and side wind.

But do decrease the pressure in sandy/rocky bush tracks etc but of course there not the same side wind forces.

Peter

Radar · Guru

Kebbin wrote:
Also the Pajero has some unusual Towball & ATM weight allowances from memory.

Hi Kebbin

Nissan have similar lot of figures recommended for the Navara D40 crew cab ute which I try to work with but no where near as tight as the Pajero.

I did try to find out once but I got mixed reaction about whether other manufactories have this reconmended sort of figures tack away in the drivers hand book.

I asked my brother in law about his lc200, he instantly said rubish and locked the door to his car.

Interesting.

yobarr · Guru

Radar wrote:
Kebbin wrote

I asked my brother in law about his lc200, he instantly said rubish and locked the door to his car.
Interesting.

The LC200 does not have any official factory restrictions,other than its tare,but because of their lightweight rear axle (1950kg) they can not safely tow much more than 3000kg ATM.Many of their adoring owners are unaware of this limitation,and those who do know seem to not care.I have spent literally hours,on another forum,explaining the facts,and have been well supported by those who understand weights,but the majority prefer to argue against the facts,or simply put their heads in the sand and hope for the best. Cest la vie.Cheers

miroku12g · Senior Member

Hi all,
Yep R/L is correct just trying to absorb all this great info, just to add what I had forgotten to mention:

My van is a New Age 17 series, I have had this from new for the last 5 years & this problem only started October gone, We were coming home from a Darwin trip with no real problems, coming down the range from Hampton to Esk I pulled off the bitimum onto a gravel drop off to allow a faster car to pass me, as i pulled back onto the bitumen [only going slow] the van appeared to step out to the right violently [the car remained straight] no noise's or anything, that is when things started to feel wrong, I have not changed the way i load the car or the van within the last 5 years as i am fully aware on load shifts and the van sits perfect when hooked up, I use Haymen Reese with load levelers. Air bags @ 30psi,[only when hooked up with the van] Car tyres are: Pirelli Scorpion @ 45psi all round, van tyres are: Dunlop Road Grippers LT 109 as fitted originally from new with 50psi all round.
I did however after a comment made, roughly take a measurement from centre of hitch to centre of leading axle on both sides, there is a difference by around 10mm, but i will get a correct measurement later today. with that said it will mean the axle has shifted so I will also check under for any obvious movement.
I will also check TAR and ball weights but as said this only started 3 months ago, as R/L mentioned it appears to YAW but only sometimes !! I have never put the rig over a weight bridge, but that will be my next move I think.
Anyway, all the info is greatly appreciated, and it keeps you all from mowing the bloody laws that grow daily this time of year :]
Thanks to everyone and once I get more measurements and weights i will get back to you.
Cheers
Dave & Maz

Radar · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Radar wrote:
Kebbin wrote

I asked my brother in law about his lc200, he instantly said rubish and locked the door to his car.
Interesting.
The LC200 does not have any official factory restrictions,other than its tare,but because of their lightweight rear axle (1950kg) they can not safely tow much more than 3000kg ATM.Many of their adoring owners are unaware of this limitation,and those who do know seem to not care.I have spent literally hours,on another forum,explaining the facts,and have been well supported by those who understand weights,but the majority prefer to argue against the facts,or simply put their heads in the sand and hope for the best. Cest la vie.Cheers

Thats about the way I see it. Thank you.

With what we Have I am just happy but more then legal. Ralph.

miroku12g · Senior Member

Thanks Ralph,
I should [or will] mention that at the time I had fitted a new McHitch for the Darwin trip, for reasons I changed back to the H/Reese with WD. when we got back home, not that i intend to rubbish the McHitch setup, but it just didn't do it for me or the rig.

yobarr · Guru

miroku12g wrote:
Thanks Ralph,
I should [or will] mention that at the time I had fitted a new McHitch for the Darwin trip, for reasons I changed back to the H/Reese with WD. when we got back home, not that i intend to rubbish the McHitch setup, but it just didn't do it for me or the rig.

Good decision if safety is of any concern to you.The McHitch increases the TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) significantly,therefore increasing instability,as well as adding extra weight to the rear axle.Unfortunately one brand of car is affected more than many others by this increase in overhang,as this car has such a small wheel base.I wont mention any names,for fear of upsetting the many adoring owners,but if you have 200 guesses you probably will get the answer? When I was setting up my car,I very quickly saw the problem with the McHitch,and bought a DO35 instead.Cheers.

kesa32 · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
Baz421 wrote:
PS Missed tyre pressures,, very important,, Paj rear tyres and van.ie My LC79 Landcruiser rear tyres need 60psi and van 40psi other wise I get tyre induced "sway",,,, it is real and you can feel it.
Tyres...And that says it all! I had exactly the same experience with my LC79,and I too run 60psi in the rear,with 36psi in the steer.The van was tried at 40psi all round,but I when I experimented with 45psi in the vans rear axle,and 40psi in the front,the whole thing settled down dramatically.But you MUST get the van level,or slightly...very slightly...nose down.Cheers

Totally agree , took this advice from Collyn years ago , made a marked difference

markf · Senior Member

miroku12g wrote:
.... as i pulled back onto the bitumen [only going slow] the van appeared to step out to the right violently ....

And herein lies a clue. My guess is that something has either broken or shifted. What that "something" is I can only guess at - chassis, suspension system, etc. Get underneath it and check EVERYWHERE for cracks, signs of slippage, breaks, etc. Check everything between tow hitch and tail lights - welds, nuts and bolts and whatever else. I reckon that the chances are good that you'll find something loose, broken or moved.

-- Edited by markf on Wednesday 2nd of January 2019 11:27:49 AM

littledick · Senior Member

Kebbin wrote:
Also the Pajero has some unusual Towball & ATM weight allowances from memory.

Tow ball weight drops to 180kgs when van weighs over 2500 kg'

Ball weight was between 180/190 by scale measure. That was with a tunnel and front boot.

My previous 2015 Pajero towed present van weighing approx 2.7kgs loaded no problem.

Dick.