generators

T1 Terry · Guru

RE: generators

T1 Terry · Guru

It appears Peter does not want to clarify what he has posted so I'll try to clear up any misconceptions. You can not have an inverter and a generator running on the same 240vac circuit. The equipment needed to match the waveforms is available but rather expensive, as far as I know Victron are the only ones who offer this ability in the Multiplus range. These units require the generator input to go directly into the inverter, not simply through the powerpoint on the side of the van unless it has been wired by an electrician to actually achieve that so Peter's post I read as being very misleading and dangerous.
These Victron Multiplus and Phoenix inverter/chargers are big as far as the room to mount them goes and expensive to buy in $$ terms, then the additional current limiter remote so the load sharing can actually occur, it all adds up.
A seriously big unit is required to run a roof top rattler above 40*C inside temperature of the inverter (around 30*C ambient passing through the inverter under full load and must be full flow so only cold air enters and the hot air is vented some where away from the intake area.) A Victron labelled as a 3000 is not a 3000w inverter, that 3000 is the VA capacity at below 40*C internal temp, this is roughly the equivalent of 2500w, I'll let Peter describe the meaning of VA because that is his field of expertise. To power a roof top rattler with one of these Victron inverters on a 40*C plus day (and you know we have them) would require a 5000VA unit. Yes, we have installed these items so we do know about the problems.

T1 Terry

oldtrack123 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
It appears Peter does not want to clarify what he has posted so I'll try to clear up any misconceptions.
[1]You can not have an inverter and a generator running on the same 240vac circuit. The equipment needed to match the waveforms is available but rather expensive, as far as I know Victron are the only ones who offer this ability in the Multiplus range.
[2]These units require the generator input to go directly into the inverter, not simply through the powerpoint on the side of the van unless it has been wired by an electrician to actually achieve that so Peter's post I read as being very misleading and dangerous.
[3]
These Victron Multiplus and Phoenix inverter/chargers are big as far as the room to mount them goes and expensive to buy in $$ terms, then the additional current limiter remote so the load sharing can actually occur, it all adds up.
A seriously big unit is required to run a roof top rattler above 40*C inside temperature of the inverter (around 30*C ambient passing through the inverter under full load and must be full flow so only cold air enters and the hot air is vented some where away from the intake area.) A Victron labelled as a 3000 is not a 3000w inverter, that 3000 is the VA capacity at below 40*C internal temp, this is roughly the equivalent of 2500w, I'll let Peter describe the meaning of VA because that is his field of expertise.
[4]To power a roof top rattler with one of these Victron inverters on a 40*C plus day (and you know we have them) would require a 5000VA unit. Yes, we have installed these items so we do know about the problems.

T1 Terry

I was not going to bother replying ,but , as you seem so confused & are no doubt confusing others

I changed my mind biggrin

Read my post carefully!!!

[1] Nowhere did I suggest that!!

Do you really think that I as a fully qualified electrician would suggest that

[2]Are you saying that a generator cannot be plugged in to the power inlet socket to charge the battery via the van inbuilt charger??

[3] Totally irrelevant No such inverter required

[4]obviously the inverter would have to meet two requirement of the particular model air con

They being :

[a]the start up load of the compressor, the inverters MAX Kva rating for a short time 1<2 seconds

to suit the air cons running requirements [continuous power kVA rating ] usually around 1kVA

Both [a] & should be considered when buying any inverter for any purpose involving electric motors

It can usually be assumed that if [a] is met , will not be a problem.

I would expect that the inverter would be within the confines of the van & it could easily be arranged for cool van air to be fed to it One would hardly install it outside the van!!

Where do you install yours???

Why do you think a suitable generator plugged into the van inlet socket ,& charging batteries,via the van inbuilt charger ,is is any different to using solar for the battery charging??

You are aware that all generator are similarly derated based on ambient temp?

And of course we both know the same applies to solar panels ,in fact all electrical equipment from cables up .Don't we????

-

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of January 2019 09:13:44 PM

Baz421 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Baz421 wrote:

I agree,,,, the BIG issue I see of high current DC draw from batteries to feed huge inverters is that AGM's (not high priced Li etc etc) could easily exceed their max current capacity.
Professional can set these systems up BUT AMATEURS like many on this forum could easily take advice literally and incorrectly and cause disaster.
Just my thoughts.

All batteries whether lead acid or Li, cranking batteries or deep cycle batteries have the capacity for short term high current draw. The issue with lead acid is the high current draw uses more of the stored capacity than the same amount drawn over a longer period. For instance, 100 amps for 1 min is 100/60 = 20wH or 1.6Ah from a 12v battery, but in actual fact if the 100 amps is pulled out of a 100Ah battery it is a lot more of the stored capacity as can be seen on this chart from a reliable lead acid deep cycle battery manufacturer.

To decode the information in the chart, 100 amps drawn from a 100Ah battery is shown as the 1C discharge curve, the normal C20 discharge curve that the 100Ah can be drawn out is the 0.05C discharge curve. As you can see, the 0.05C (C20 curve) will hit the 10.5v line after 20 hrs (C20) but the 1C curve hits the 10.5v line after only 30 mins. This is the effect of Peukert's Law on lead acid batteries.
If we use the formula that what can be used in 20hr at the rate the battery was tested at to give it the 100Ah label(40 x 30 mins) would be used in 30 mins if the full 100 amps is used in one hit, then the accelerated rate of discharge is 40/1 or 400%.
So, from the first bit we know that 100 amps drawn for 1 min is 1.6Ah x 400% = the equivalent of 6.4Ah at the C20 rate. Not a lot is it when you look at it that way, but you do need to be able to replace that 6.4Ah as well as run the air con or other heavy draw appliance one it has passed the heavy start up draw stage. Before I get flooded with angry attacks here, that high draw load is only for a few seconds, so the 1 min example I used would cover a whole day of air conditioning cycling restarts.
no idea if that helped or just confused, all I was trying to show was that a lead acid battery can still run an inverter that is big enough to power a roof top rattler, as long as there is a method of recovering the excess used out of the battery plus the running load over the days use.
Remember, if you do a good job of blocking the heat out side, the air conditioner does not run under load all the time, so when just the fan is running and not the compressor the load is much less so the charging now has a chance to catch up.
Hope this gave those still reading this thread something to think about, as Peter said about there being more than one was to do things

T1 Terry

Geez Terry,,,, so in simple terms are you saying a 3000w inverter drawing enough DC power to provide a 2000 watt AC aircon will not damage batteries.

Please answer in simple terms.

Phillipn · Guru

yobarr wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
........... I see no reason why a well set up 400Ah LA battery system couldn't run an inverter and air cond as long as the charging was enough to carry the load. Why carry a generator....
T1 Terry
Indeed! In my shed I gave a brand new Yamaha 2800i that never has had oil or petrol in it,but it now will stay at home after the success Ive had with my Solar.There are 1710 watts of panels on the van,helping to keep it cool,and I have a 2.5kw MHI split system.If I leave it running overnight at 18 degrees (testing!) the 540 AH of Lithium batteries,through a 5kw Victron inverter,drop to 95% full,and are back to 100% well before 7am. All my appliances...compressor fridge,electric fry pan,slow cooker,TV,air fryer,electric jug,microwave etc run off batteries.The only gas appliance is the griller,which is never used,so that may come out too! With 540 litres of water I can go bush for a long time with no problems.Car has 180 litres diesel capacity so that gives plenty of range,although I carry a jerry can just in case.Cheers

Leaving the generator a home is like leaving your spare tires at home, They are very handy when needed.

We traveled around Australia and did not have a flat tire. We also had a generator on board, which was used when we needed it.

rockylizard · Guru

Phillipn wrote:
yobarr wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
........... I see no reason why a well set up 400Ah LA battery system couldn't run an inverter and air cond as long as the charging was enough to carry the load. Why carry a generator....
T1 Terry
Indeed! In my shed I gave a brand new Yamaha 2800i that never has had oil or petrol in it,but it now will stay at home after the success Ive had with my Solar.There are 1710 watts of panels on the van,helping to keep it cool,and I have a 2.5kw MHI split system.If I leave it running overnight at 18 degrees (testing!) the 540 AH of Lithium batteries,through a 5kw Victron inverter,drop to 95% full,and are back to 100% well before 7am. All my appliances...compressor fridge,electric fry pan,slow cooker,TV,air fryer,electric jug,microwave etc run off batteries.The only gas appliance is the griller,which is never used,so that may come out too! With 540 litres of water I can go bush for a long time with no problems.Car has 180 litres diesel capacity so that gives plenty of range,although I carry a jerry can just in case.Cheers
Leaving the generator a home is like leaving your spare tires at home, They are very handy when needed.
We travelled around Australia and did not have a flat tire. We also had a generator on board, which was used when we needed it.

Gday...

When I first hit the road I carried a jerry can, for 'back-up' fuel, I carried a spare wheel/tyre, for back-up if puncture or blown tyre, a chain saw to cut up firewood and a generator as I didn't have solar to charge the van's battery.

I quickly moved to solar and very glad I did.

I still carry the jerry can for the occasional need for back-up fuel, I still carry a spare wheel/tyre in case of puncture/blow out, I still carry the chainsaw but rarely use it and I still carry the generator as back-up for power.

Rarely use the jerry can ... so far, haven't needed a spare on either vehicle or van ... I either just collect wood or use my bowsaw for the smaller wood so don't really need the chain saw and have rarely used the generator ... but it sure as hell was good to have on a couple of times when I have been way out off the grid and it was raining for four or so days. I know I could have packed up and headed into the nearest van park for the 240v ... but I already had the generator.

I also carry 'spare' water in two 10ltr jerry cans as well ... just in case I get a leak in the van's water tanks ... never had a leak, but still carry the water in jerries.

I have insurance on the van and vehicle too ... never used it .. but I still carry it.

I have life insurance as well ... never used it but still carry it.

It is called prudence - preparing oneself for self-sufficiency.

Life's like that.

Cheers - John

T1 Terry · Guru

Geez Terry,,,, so in simple terms are you saying a 3000w inverter drawing enough DC power to provide a 2000 watt AC aircon will not damage batteries.

Please answer in simple terms.

I'll try my best. Any inverter will only draw from the 12v supply enough to power itself and the load. In other words, even though it might be an inverter rated for 3,000w, it will only put out 3,000w if there is a 3,000w load.

The next bit, a Projecta IP2000 inverter will start up and run an Ibis 3, even the old ones without the soft start. So now we are talking about a peak load of 2,000w plus 10% (being pessimistic here) for inverter losses, 2200w total. 2200w/12v = 184 amps roughly for maybe 5 secs at the most.

Some people use deep cycle batteries as start batteries and a starter motor for a diesel engine can draw over 400amps for up to 30 secs at a time, these people do not destroy their start batteries every time they start their rig, otherwise they wouldn't do it a second time.

This clears up the start load query I believe. Next you need to remember, I posted that the charging source must be enough to recharge the battery to recover what the air con plus inverter losses were at a rate that will be enough for the battery to recover during the off cycle of the compressor.

Say the duty cycle is 50/50, 30 mins on and 30 mins of with only the fan running. The Ibis 3 manual says the peak power input is 1700w and the power input cooling is 1300w. At 12v that comes out at 142 amps start up and 108 amps running at full fan speed and max cooling. In reality the run current is around 70 amp to 80 amps run at high fan speed and set to 21*C. But even if we use the higher figure of 1300w or 108 amps @ 12v. The fan only draws around 10 amps @ 12v or 120w.

Now let's calculate the actual power use over a 4 hr period and a 50/50 duty cycle. 2 hrs x 108 amp = 216Ah + 2 hrs x 10 amps = 20Ah, total of 236Ah. This works out to 60 amp input required for the 4 hr period.

Pick your combination, 60 amps from solar only is a big solar array, roughly a 1,000w array. Half that is not an absurd amount by any means, so 500w of solar gives us half the supply needed. Add a 40 amp charger run from a Honda iE10 (40 x 12 = 480w, well within the Honda iE10's capacity) and you have more than enough supply to run the aircon plus the inverter plus a few other 12v items and keep the battery from discharging excessively.

As you can, we are not expecting the battery to power the air conditioner, we are using the battery to balance the high load start up and the deficit while the on cycle uses more than the inputs can produce and recovering that use during the off cycle.

Was that simple enough Baz?

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

oldtrack123 wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
It appears Peter does not want to clarify what he has posted so I'll try to clear up any misconceptions.
[1]You can not have an inverter and a generator running on the same 240vac circuit. The equipment needed to match the waveforms is available but rather expensive, as far as I know Victron are the only ones who offer this ability in the Multiplus range.
[2]These units require the generator input to go directly into the inverter, not simply through the powerpoint on the side of the van unless it has been wired by an electrician to actually achieve that so Peter's post I read as being very misleading and dangerous.
[3]
These Victron Multiplus and Phoenix inverter/chargers are big as far as the room to mount them goes and expensive to buy in $$ terms, then the additional current limiter remote so the load sharing can actually occur, it all adds up.
A seriously big unit is required to run a roof top rattler above 40*C inside temperature of the inverter (around 30*C ambient passing through the inverter under full load and must be full flow so only cold air enters and the hot air is vented some where away from the intake area.) A Victron labelled as a 3000 is not a 3000w inverter, that 3000 is the VA capacity at below 40*C internal temp, this is roughly the equivalent of 2500w, I'll let Peter describe the meaning of VA because that is his field of expertise.
[4]To power a roof top rattler with one of these Victron inverters on a 40*C plus day (and you know we have them) would require a 5000VA unit. Yes, we have installed these items so we do know about the problems.

T1 Terry
I was not going to bother replying ,but , as you seem so confused & are no doubt confusing others
I changed my mind
Read my post carefully!!!
[1] Nowhere did I suggest that!!
Do you really think that I as a fully qualified electrician would suggest that
[2]Are you saying that a generator cannot be plugged in to the power inlet socket to charge the battery via the van inbuilt charger??
[3] Totally irrelevant No such inverter required
[4]obviously the inverter would have to meet two requirement of the particular model air con
They being :
[a]the start up load of the compressor, the inverters MAX Kva rating for a short time 1<2 seconds
to suit the air cons running requirements [continuous power kVA rating ] usually around 1kVA
Both [a] & should be considered when buying any inverter for any purpose involving electric motors
It can usually be assumed that if [a] is met , will not be a problem.
I would expect that the inverter would be within the confines of the van & it could easily be arranged for cool van air to be fed to it One would hardly install it outside the van!!
Where do you install yours???
Why do you think a suitable generator plugged into the van inlet socket ,& charging batteries,via the van inbuilt charger ,is is any different to using solar for the battery charging??
You are aware that all generator are similarly derated based on ambient temp?
And of course we both know the same applies to solar panels ,in fact all electrical equipment from cables up .Don't we????

-

-

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of January 2019 09:13:44 PM

I'm sorry Peter, but you seem so out of touch with how caravans and motorhomes are wired I think you should avoid making any suggestions like plugging the generator into the side power inlet and wiring an inverter to power the air conditioner.

Just about every RV has the roof top rattler wired to the outside power inlet via a circuit breaker or double pole rocker switch. Just about every RV has the battery charger wired via a power point close to the battery charger to allow it to be easily turned off or unplugged if a replacement is required, and also simply because that is the easiest method.

Which would be the easiest and most straight forward for the average Joe Blow:

(1) rewire the air conditioner so it is powered by an inverter but can also be powered by the outside power inlet when mains power is available

or

(2) Unplug the battery charger and plug it into the generator and run an extension cord to the outside power inlet point?

If an amphibian or similar current limiter/RCD is used where an inverter greater than 2400w is used, there is no risk involved. If the inverter is only a 2000w unit such as the Projecta IP2000, it already has the circuit breaker built in and can not produce more than the 10 amps a 10 amp lead is designed to carry, so I can't see an issue with using a 15 amp caravan lead for the purpose, it is already part of the kit most RV travellers have anyway.

Seriously Peter, reread what you posted initially and see if you can see any safety advice regarding how things should be rewired. Can't you see how your initial post could be misinterpreted and a very dangerous combination being the result? If you can't then ........ what can I say

T1 Terry

Buggered if I can see why that all came out in bold print?

-- Edited by T1 Terry on Monday 28th of January 2019 10:54:51 AM

Baz421 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Geez Terry,,,, so in simple terms are you saying a 3000w inverter drawing enough DC power to provide a 2000 watt AC aircon will not damage batteries.

Please answer in simple terms.

I'll try my best. Any inverter will only draw from the 12v supply enough to power itself and the load. In other words, even though it might be an inverter rated for 3,000w, it will only put out 3,000w if there is a 3,000w load.
The next bit, a Projecta IP2000 inverter will start up and run an Ibis 3, even the old ones without the soft start. So now we are talking about a peak load of 2,000w plus 10% (being pessimistic here) for inverter losses, 2200w total. 2200w/12v = 184 amps roughly for maybe 5 secs at the most.
Some people use deep cycle batteries as start batteries and a starter motor for a diesel engine can draw over 400amps for up to 30 secs at a time, these people do not destroy their start batteries every time they start their rig, otherwise they wouldn't do it a second time.
This clears up the start load query I believe. Next you need to remember, I posted that the charging source must be enough to recharge the battery to recover what the air con plus inverter losses were at a rate that will be enough for the battery to recover during the off cycle of the compressor.
Say the duty cycle is 50/50, 30 mins on and 30 mins of with only the fan running. The Ibis 3 manual says the peak power input is 1700w and the power input cooling is 1300w. At 12v that comes out at 142 amps start up and 108 amps running at full fan speed and max cooling. In reality the run current is around 70 amp to 80 amps run at high fan speed and set to 21*C. But even if we use the higher figure of 1300w or 108 amps @ 12v. The fan only draws around 10 amps @ 12v or 120w.
Now let's calculate the actual power use over a 4 hr period and a 50/50 duty cycle. 2 hrs x 108 amp = 216Ah + 2 hrs x 10 amps = 20Ah, total of 236Ah. This works out to 60 amp input required for the 4 hr period.
Pick your combination, 60 amps from solar only is a big solar array, roughly a 1,000w array. Half that is not an absurd amount by any means, so 500w of solar gives us half the supply needed. Add a 40 amp charger run from a Honda iE10 (40 x 12 = 480w, well within the Honda iE10's capacity) and you have more than enough supply to run the aircon plus the inverter plus a few other 12v items and keep the battery from discharging excessively.

As you can, we are not expecting the battery to power the air conditioner, we are using the battery to balance the high load start up and the deficit while the on cycle uses more than the inputs can produce and recovering that use during the off cycle.

Was that simple enough Baz?

T1 Terry

Thanks Terry Yes it was. I wasn't counting a fully balanced load. Cheers

oldtrack123 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Sorry Peter,
[a]
but you seem so out of touch with how caravans and motorhomes are wired I think you should avoid making any suggestions like plugging the generator into the side power inlet and wiring an inverter to power the air conditioner.
Just about every RV has the roof top rattler wired to the outside power inlet via a circuit breaker or double pole rocker switch. Just about every RV has the battery charger wired via a power point close to the battery charger to allow it to be easily turned off or unplugged if a replacement is required, and also simply because that is the easiest method.
Which would be the easiest and most straight forward for the average Joe Blow:
(1) rewire the air conditioner so it is powered by an inverter but can also be powered by the outside power inlet when mains power is available
or
(2) Unplug the battery charger and plug it into the generator and run an extension cord to the outside power inlet point?

[3]
If an amphibian or similar current limiter/RCD is used where an inverter greater than 2400w is used, there is no risk involved. If the inverter is only a 2000w unit such as the Projecta IP2000, it already has the circuit breaker built in and can not produce more than the 10 amps a 10 amp lead is designed to carry, so I can't see an issue with using a 15 amp caravan lead for the purpose, it is already part of the kit most RV travellers have anyway.

[4]
Seriously Peter, reread what you posted initially and see if you can see any safety advice regarding how things should be rewired. Can't you see how your initial post could be misinterpreted and a very dangerous combination being the result? If you can't then ........ what can I say

T1 Terry

Buggered if I can see why that all came out in bold print?

-- Edited by T1 Terry on Monday 28th of January 2019 10:54:51 AM

[aI Unlike you do not give believe in giving full details on how to do Licensed Electrical Work.,or encourage anyone to attempt !.

I am simply saying What can be done

[1]And what is your solution to keeping the batteries charged to run the inverter ?

Something you see to forget is Small Vans do not have the roof space to install 1kW plus of solar

Fitting a SUITABLE Change over switch from mains to inverter @the aircon & purely for the air con is something that most ELECTRICIANs would do naturally. In fact such is a requirement for lock out purposes under the standards. [so it is not a simple change over switch]

But Again I do not believe in posting that sort of detail on an open forum

Unlike you ,I do not have the need to try & prove what I know

Do you really think I do not know all that or are you just posting that to show you have a "little" knowledge regarding 240V work

[1] Again ,how does that solve the problem of keeping the batteries charged when not on mains power???[see [A1] above

[2] Do you really mean what you have posted ???? You know one has to be very careful with electrical advice! for low voltage & above!!

What does that achieve????

[3]

First I cannot understand your point , what has that got to do with shock risk when using an inverter with more than one class 1 device??

I know more about RVD & RCDs than you could ever imagine having been in close contact with Ian from the early development stages,& RCDs from way way back

So I know an Ampfibian gives no protection in that situation!!

[4]Seriously Terry ,you should stick with things you o a bit about [that safe Extra low voltage stuff ]but keep well clear of the big boy stuff , 240V that can easily kill & in which you have zero quals

Again I deliberately did not give ,do not give , will not give detailed instructions on how to do Low voltage electrical work on open forum

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 28th of January 2019 04:39:08 PM

Izabarack · Guru

Is there an Australian equivalent to the Yank expression of Groundhog Day?

thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65178068/arguments-on-solar-anything/

Iza

T1 Terry · Guru

Sad Peter, you just keep digging a bigger hole. It appears you are so eager to attack you either don't bother reading the posts or they are too complex for you to follow. Try reading the part about the Projecta IP2000 having a built in RCD that does operate when functioning as an inverter, but then you would already know that if you had kept up with the technology used in RV's these days. What is the risk involved using such an inverter and the 15 amp cord plugged into the power inlet in the side of the van? Far less risk than the generator you are suggesting to plug into the side of the van if it isn't fitted with an RVD or RCD and the earth/neutral tied before the RCD. Not all generators are so equipped, but you didn't mention the requirement for such a device on the generator, only on the circuit for the air conditioner from the inverter.
If you had any caravan wiring experience on the more recently built RV's you would know there is no access to the wiring that runs between the power inlet socket and the circuit breaker or 2 pole switch and on to the air conditioner, it is all built into the walls before the cladding goes on. this makes it a serious reconstruction to achieve your solution and adds 2 way switches etc that are not required if the problem is properly thought through.

Why didn't you take up the challenge of explaining the difference between a VA rating and a watts rating, too hard?

T1 Terry

Sahara05 · Veteran Member

You blokes are getting a little bit boring.
Jeff

aussie_paul · Guru

Sahara05 wrote:
You blokes are getting a little bit boring.
Jeff

More than a bit Jeff. disbelief

Aussie Paul. smile

yobarr · Guru

On the contraryaussie_paul wrote:
Sahara05 wrote:
You blokes are getting a little bit boring.
Jeff
More than a bit Jeff.
Aussie Paul.

On the contrary,I am learning a lot from Terry whose knowledge and common sense is evident in his posts.If I needed help on anything Solar or electrical,I would PM Terry ahead of any of the other contributors.If anybody finds the apparent conflict boring,there is a very simple solution.Just saying.Cheers

rockylizard · Guru

yobarr wrote:
On the contraryaussie_paul wrote:
Sahara05 wrote:
You blokes are getting a little bit boring.
Jeff
More than a bit Jeff.
Aussie Paul.
On the contrary,I am learning a lot from Terry whose knowledge and common sense is evident in his posts.If I needed help on anything Solar or electrical,I would PM Terry ahead of any of the other contributors.If anybody finds the apparent conflict boring,there is a very simple solution.Just saying.Cheers

Gday...

You may just be right Yobarr, but I have no way of knowing.

However, as a layperson with very limited knowledge of anything electrical, solar or battery related, I am completely nonplussed by the banter between the 'experts'.

Often the banter has drifted - NO, been driven - so far from the OP question it becomes irrelevant. They use such technical exchanges, graphs and jargon in their jousting trying to outdo each other. There is no way, I can determine just who knows what as there are many contradictory bits of information - and definitely no agreement on any aspect of electrical, solar or batteries.

There is no way I can determine just who is right or wrong. Even if I wrote it all out, I could not begin to seek any electrical professional away from the forum to find out just what I might need to know.

Surely apparent 'experts' can find SOMETHING to agree on rather than only that the other/s are wrong.

[EDIT: I make a point of reading Techies Sub-Forum, including Solar, because there is often a question that piques my interest. However, the responses ultimately give me a headache rather an some useful information I can use.]

cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Monday 28th of January 2019 08:52:35 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Sad Peter, you just keep digging a bigger hole. It appears you are so eager to attack you either don't bother reading the posts or they are too complex for you to follow. Try reading the part about the Projecta IP2000 having a built in RCD that does operate when functioning as an inverter, but then you would already know that if you had kept up with the technology used in RV's these days. What is the risk involved using such an inverter and the 15 amp cord plugged into the power inlet in the side of the van? Far less risk than the generator you are suggesting to plug into the side of the van if it isn't fitted with an RVD or RCD and the earth/neutral tied before the RCD. Not all generators are so equipped, but you didn't mention the requirement for such a device on the generator, only on the circuit for the air conditioner from the inverter.
If you had any caravan wiring experience on the more recently built RV's you would know there is no access to the wiring that runs between the power inlet socket and the circuit breaker or 2 pole switch and on to the air conditioner, it is all built into the walls before the cladding goes on. this makes it a serious reconstruction to achieve your solution and adds 2 way switches etc that are not required if the problem is properly thought through.

Why didn't you take up the challenge of explaining the difference between a VA rating and a watts rating, too hard?

T1 Terry

I'll say just one thing

I was not & never intended to give a detailed description on how to fully wire a van!!

I have made many many posts on shock protection for generators & inverters as you well know Even before you became an "Expert " on everything on that first forum you were kicked off & again on the 2nd one you were kicked off for just the same behaviour as you are displaying here!

Again you insults as to me not knowing that the wiring is not easily accessible , just show how desperate you are prepared to go to try to be top dog on every subject

It has been done that way for many many years,All the Vans & the motor home & I Have had were wired that way & that going back over 60 years

Again if you want to pick a particular inverter to show your "Knowledge" that is up to you . I was not interested in that because I was referring to a simple generic inverter No RCD /NO RVD fitted as purchased or why would I have mentioned them[RCD & RVDs]

As for Power factor, kW ,& Kva to suggest that is to hard for me explain, I think I have explained it previously but think it would be of little interest to most members . If any one is interested PM me & I will explain, lagging power factor , leading power factor ,where & why it occurs,power factor correction & why it is often done ,& sometime a mandatory requirement of the supply authority.What it means as far as generator rating is concerned or even main supply etc.

But just as a guide who wonder about the terminology

True power is rated as Watts ,Kilowatts, or even Megawatts

Reactive power is rated as VA , kVA or mVA often with a % figure & a L or R [ie 80%L]

It only occurs on AC

It is caused when equipment used performs in such a way that the current demand of each cycle of the 50Cycle supply either leads or lags the voltage curve.

Anything with an iron core [motors ,relay coils,solenoids even those without an iron core , lines were the active & neutral or pos & neg are not close to each other,' will have a %lag[one of the reasons why all such wiring is best done with multi core cable]

Capacitors are the main source of a leading PF & are used for correcting a lagging power factor to obtain max use of the available power from the source or even power lines

Another source for Lagging PF correction, 'strangely ,is a synchronous motor. It can do two jobs ,drive machinery as well as correct lagging PF

I must point out that the "power" apparently used is not lost , that is why it is sometimes referred to as Wattless power.[no energy in it ]

The lead or the lag depends on how the reactive power is stored

Now the important bit ,Generator & similar power producing sources such as transformers output is limited by heating in the windings

A load Pf,other than unity ,means that the full electrical power output cannot be obtained from the source without over heating

If anyone wishes to have a more detailed explanation of why it occurs PM me

. As for you ,I have had more than enough & I will not go any further playing your stupid games.

I will let those who have not been brainwashed into believing you are the great guru on everything come to their own conclusions

-Just a Quick example as I have a power meter in line to this PC [cheap Arlec unit]

PF 0.84

Amps 1.06

V 240

W 210
VA 254

That means it is pulling 0.185A which is not doing any useful work & importantly ,I'm not paying for it biggrin

just for interest I'll do a test on my 2 aircons tomorrow [both pumping & idling]

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 28th of January 2019 10:46:22 PM

Sahara05 · Veteran Member

I feel for the original poster who only wanted to know if the Honda
2.2 generator would run his aircon,or did you forget the question.
A simple answer would have been appropriate.
Jeff

KJB · Guru

I agree Sahara.

The response would have been more appropriate posted under "Just Joking".

T1 Terry · Guru

As usual, the thread has gone south but I think the OP got their answer before it headed off into oblivion. It seems even If I try to post a warning about misleading information that could lead an inexperienced person off on a dangerous path, I'm still in the wrong. I know I can't win any of these arguments so I no longer try, but I still think it important to point out anything that could lead to an injury or death if misunderstood. I would be negligent otherwise and it would haunt me worse than the PITA's on this forum, they can be ignored as they are much like the old dog barking on the verandah trying to look as though they still have some use.
Sorry to those that were upset by the nonsense, but I do feel it was important to attempt to point out bit that could be misinterpreted and therefore dangerous. I will continue to do so when ever I see that sort of thing come up, so sorry in advance for those events as well

T1 Terry

oldtrack123 · Guru

Sahara05 wrote:
I feel for the original poster who only wanted to know if the Honda
2.2 generator would run his aircon,or did you forget the question.
A simple answer would have been appropriate.
Jeff

I think he did get his answers in replies #1 ,2 ,3 ,4 , & 6 biggrin

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Just adapt the lead . Now argue over that !! Lol

T1 Terry · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Just adapt the lead . Now argue over that !! Lol

Stirrer :lol: I wasn't going to mention that the Honda UE22i only has 10 amp power points so you can't simply plug the 15 amp lead into the generator and then into the power inlet socket. You would thought the knowledgeable fella that goes on so much about cheater leads would have mentioned something about that, rather he attack me when I mentioned using an Amphibian or similar current limiting device to adapt the 10 amp to a 15 amp plug so the caravan cord could be used wink

T1 Terry

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Lol smhttp-ssl-48579.nexcesscdn.net/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/P/-/P-HW0002.jpg

Bill B · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:

I wasn't going to mention that the Honda UE22i only has 10 amp power points so you can't simply plug the 15 amp lead into the generator and then into the power inlet socket.

Suggest you check you're facts as you are wrong.

T1 Terry · Guru

powerequipment.honda.com.au/Brochures/Honda_Generator_Brochure.pdf Sure look like 10 amp sockets to me and Horton Honda the Adelaide agent confirmed it. The statement made by the Horton Honda rep was "Why would they fit a 15 amp power point designed to carry 3600w on a generator that can only produce 2200w?"

T1 Terry

Bill B · Guru

I can assure you that EU22i has 2 x 15 amp power outlets.

Since you don't believe me, even though I own one, watch this clip www.youtube.com/watch

For that matter even the old EU20 has had 15 amp power outlets for several years.

rockylizard · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
SNIP~~~ I wasn't going to mention that the Honda UE22i only has 10 amp power points so you can't simply plug the 15 amp lead into the generator and then into the power inlet socket. ~~~SNIP
T1 Terry

Gday...

I would assume by now that you have taken the time to view the video put up by BillB. Stated pretty obviously on there.

... I would also suggest you take a closer look at the Honda brochure you shared to prove your point.

Honda Genny 03.jpg

It is quite obvious that the EU2.2i has two 15 amp outlets. Also, as stated before, the EU2.0i has had two 15 amps for over a decade. Mine is 10 years old and it has two 15 amp outlets.

One would hope this won't degenerate into a slanging match back and forth trying to prove you are correct and the rest of the world is wrong. hmm

cheers - John

oldtrack123 · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
powerequipment.honda.com.au/Brochures/Honda_Generator_Brochure.pdf Sure look like 10 amp sockets to me and Horton Honda the Adelaide agent confirmed it. The statement made by the Horton Honda rep was "Why would they fit a 15 amp power point designed to carry 3600w on a generator that can only produce 2200w?"

T1 Terry

you obviously do not keep up with the times I think it was quite a few years ago that Honda recognised their generators were popular in the vanning fraternity & started fitting 15A sockets.And before you jump in saying they would not do that, because they risk burning out the generator ,stop & think!! biggrin

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 29th of January 2019 08:50:45 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

I stand corrected, no idea why the Horton Honda rep led me astray but there ya go.

T1 Terry