Lithium batteries

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Lithium batteries

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

They are getting cheaper I must admit looking at them myself . Like near all electrical storage systems ?? Its the total package .. Cells ,Reg and charger .. The Lithium battery on my elect lawn mower has been going fine for 3 years . Cut at least 3 lawns every week !! Still has same length cutting time !! Now Ive said that !! Itll bugger up !! Lol

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Hope you haven Jonahed yourself!

T1 Terry · Guru

Hi Neil, it wouldn't be right for me to promote my wife's business on here, so I won't :lol:
There are a number of important factors to consider when buying any battery, but most importantly any lithium battery.

1)The discharge rate used to measure the capacity, if the seller can't tell you straight up when you ask, look for another seller, that one is either ignorant of anything serious regarding lithium batteries or they already know they are pulling a swiftie by reporting an unrealistic capacity when using the standard test methods for lithium batteries.

2) Can you swap out a faulty cell at any time in the future if needed, or is a throw away of the whole battery? The difference for a genuine 100Ah LYP (Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate) battery is $200 for a cell or $1,000 for a battery.

3) Are individual cell (or cells grouped in parallel) voltages monitored? If not why not? The answer will tell you just how much they know about what they are doing. It is not possible to balance between the cells at the end of charging (top balance) unless you have control over the individual charging supplies. If the high current charge rate continues until a high total voltage (all 4 cells added together for a 12v battery) is reached, one cell will most definitely be over voltage and being damaged. The charging must stop when any cell goes high voltage and not start again until that cell is back to a safe voltage.

4) What is the technical back up if you have a problem down the track? No use the seller telling that the battery must be returned to the factory at your cost if you are in the back of whoop whoop, only to have them tell you a week or so later they found nothing wrong with it so you have to pay the freight back as well. If the battery is installed as part of a system, the installer knows the system and can talk you through basic tests to determine if it really is a battery problem and a work around until a more permanent solution can be sorted. If the problem is something inside a seal case battery, you can't fix it on the side of the road even with someone who has the technical ability to advise you of what the problem is.

Lithium batteries are a big investment, the cheapest is rarely going to last the distance you would expect for the $$ you parted with, do you really know enough about the true differences between lead acid batteries and lithium batteries to risk your money on a self installed system?

T1 Terry

Tony Bev · Guru

Hopefully I am not hijacking the original poster, Neil (Dncwell) thread

My usual disclaimer, is that I am not associated with anyone selling anything
BUT...
I shall hold up my hand and say
Terry (forum member T1 Terry), gave me (free of charge and postage), some Schottky diodes
I used some of them, and passed onto another forum member, the ones I did not use

I do not have lithium batteries, but being an inquisitive person, I am also interested in lithium technology

Terry I have a question

You mention Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate battery (LYP), in your reply to Neil
Is this different than Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery (LiFePO4), or just another brand name?

If these are two different batteries, could you explain in layman speak, what the difference is please?

Ozlad · Member

neil
While Im not advocating this battery just directing you to a spec sheet which as you mention can be difficult to find
superstart.com.au/amfile/file/download/file_id/111/product_id/506/

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Many thanks indeed Terry for another informative reply and excellent advice.

I am certainly ill informed regarding the difference between lead acid and lithium and also very wary of warranty terms.

Doubtless the scenario of battery failure in any location conjures trepidation in any traveller and of course leaves it open for the supplier to refute the claim even if a term or three years is initially offered.

In my case I was initially contemplating an independent 12 volt system as the original as fitted to our Eyre is quite sufficient for a few days free camping, however, having an additional 1200 watt panel supplying a 160ah agm coupled to a 5000 watt inverter, this system is not very satisfactory as the float voltage of 12.6 soon drops to 10.6 with a 1800 watt electric jug and a toaster being used for breakfast. Microwave a non event, the start current being beyond the system.

We have a 2.2 Australian manufactured generator which we would love to leave at home but I cannot envisage a lithium system where a backup at some time is not required.

Would a lithium battery of 150 ah suffice and what would you envisage the cost would be.

Best regards,

Neil Creswell.

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Thank you very much Ozlad.

I am diligently researching the products, too much information!

I will get there,

Best regards, Neil.

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Excellent question Tony.

Cheers, Neil.

T1 Terry · Guru

Tony Bev wrote:
Hopefully I am not hijacking the original poster, Neil (Dncwell) thread

My usual disclaimer, is that I am not associated with anyone selling anything
BUT...
I shall hold up my hand and say
Terry (forum member T1 Terry), gave me (free of charge and postage), some Schottky diodes
I used some of them, and passed onto another forum member, the ones I did not use

I do not have lithium batteries, but being an inquisitive person, I am also interested in lithium technology

Terry I have a question

You mention Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate battery (LYP), in your reply to Neil
Is this different than Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery (LiFePO4), or just another brand name?

If these are two different batteries, could you explain in layman speak, what the difference is please?

Hi Tony. The original version of the lithium ferrous battery was LiFeP04. The problems with this chemistry is cold tolerance to both charging and discharging, to a small degree voltage sag under high load (nothing like the difference between lead acid and lithium ferrous) and cycle life, again nothing like the difference between lead acid and lithium ferrous.

A battery/chemistry either master mind (or had very clever people working for him) named Winston Chung, took over the reins of a stuggling battery manufacturer called Thundersky. They had terrible quality control issues at the time and Winston Chung turned this around and streamlined the production process to the point they supplied other cell manufacturers with the plates and electrolyte.

Winston Chung then developed a slightly different compound for both the active plate and the electrolyte and started producing these under the same Thundersky label, just with the LYP prefix. A massive fight followed between the original Thundersky bosses and Chung regarding ownership of this new LYP technology resulting in Winston Chung opening his own factories under the name of Winston Batteries. Another big court battle, a huge payment made yet Thundersky didn't get the LYP technology, not happy chappies at all. Not sure what happened from that point, but the old Thundersky became Sinopoly and Winston took back the Thundersky name and are now known as Winston Thundersky Batteries. The Winston cells are LYP (Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate) that have the better cycle life and temperature stability, and Thundersky which are the cheaper - not quite as good LFP (Lithium Ferrous Phosphate) chemistry.

Winston I believe still on sell the LFP plates and electrolyte to some other cell manufacturers, but the LYP technology is very much in house and closely guarded with continual upgrades in the make up. One I noticed recently was both terminals are now aluminium, no idea if that continues inside to the plate base material, and the nominal voltage has gone up from 3.2vdc per cell to 3.3vdc per cell.

I do have one of these later type cells that has been murdered, so when I get a chance I'll cut it open to see if the plates have changed from one copper and one aluminium to both being aluminium.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

Dncwell wrote:
Many thanks indeed Terry for another informative reply and excellent advice.
I am certainly ill informed regarding the difference between lead acid and lithium and also very wary of warranty terms.
Doubtless the scenario of battery failure in any location conjures trepidation in any traveller and of course leaves it open for the supplier to refute the claim even if a term or three years is initially offered.
In my case I was initially contemplating an independent 12 volt system as the original as fitted to our Eyre is quite sufficient for a few days free camping, however, having an additional 1200 watt panel supplying a 160ah agm coupled to a 5000 watt inverter, this system is not very satisfactory as the float voltage of 12.6 soon drops to 10.6 with a 1800 watt electric jug and a toaster being used for breakfast. Microwave a non event, the start current being beyond the system.
We have a 2.2 Australian manufactured generator which we would love to leave at home but I cannot envisage a lithium system where a backup at some time is not required.
Would a lithium battery of 150 ah suffice and what would you envisage the cost would be.
Best regards,
Neil Creswell.

I'm guessing that is meant to read 120w, no idea how anyone would move a 1200w panel around, mounting it would be interesting confuse

Let's look at the numbers to see if we can see what is causing the problem ... bad pun and not intended smile 1800w @ 12.6v = 143 amps Add 10% for losses through the inverter (probably not that high but it gives a bit a margin for error) brings that up to 1800w x 1.1 = 1980w / 12.6v = 157 amps.

From a 160Ah battery that is very close to a C1 or 1CA discharge rate. Let's look at the Full River AGM battery chart and see what a C! discharge rate does to the battery voltage and capacity, this chart is for a 105Ah battery, so a discharge rate of 105 amps would match the curve for a 160 amp load on a 160Ah battery

Fullriver DC105ah AGM.JPG

Following the line marked as 105A the voltage drops below 12v in under 1 min and drops below 10v in roughly 30 mins from a fully charged battery. So, at that load the capacity dropped from 105Ah to 50Ah, roughly half, the effects of what is known as the Peukert factor.

Let's look at the same load on a 160Ah LYP battery. In this case the factory releases the information for cell voltages because they sell the LYP chemistry as full batteries. Again, this is a 100Ah cell, but in this case the discharge is marked out as a C discharge rate.

0.5CA means the capacity divided by 2 in amps = 50 amps from a 100Ah cell.

1CA means the capacity divided by 1 in amps = 100 amps from a 100Ah cell.

3CA means the capacity multiplied by 3 in amps = 300 amps from a 100Ah cell.

WB LYP 100AH Discharge chart.jpg

If you look at the left hand column it shows cell voltage, multiply this by 4 to get a 12v battery and x 8 to get a 24v battery. If you follow the 1CA line (100 amp load) back to the start the load voltage is about 3.25v or roughly 13v for a 4 cell 12v battery. Follow the line to where it crosses the 3v line (or 12v for a 4 cell battery) and you can see that matches up to 100% discharge capacity.

Using this chart to compare the action of a 160Ah cell or battery, the 160 amp load can be supplied for 1 hrs before the voltage drops below 12v. Double the capacity and you can have the 160 amps for 2 hrs continuous and so on.

as you can see from the chart, you could actually ask for 300 amps from the 100Ah battery and still get about 80% of the capacity before the voltage dropped below the 3v (or 12v for a 4 cell battery). That's about 45 mins or so with a 300 amp load before it was fully discharged and needed recharging. I only mentioned this because the 5000w inverter at full load would require 458 amp allowing for the 10% losses, a 160Ah lithium cell at a 3CA rate can deliver 480 amps for 45 mins.

A quality lithium battery will do what you want, the capacity depends on how long you want it to deliver that power. The aim to get the very long life cycle is to limit the continuous loads to about 0.5CA, they can deliver the peak loads for short periods without an issue but just how many cycles they will deliver a 3CA load is sort of unknown.

The electric vehicle people pull 5CA or higher loads out of these cells and get between 600 cycles and 1500 cycles before they start to show serious voltage sag under high load. These same cells go on to power house battery applications for yrs, so it doesn't kill them, just the internal resistance goes up.

T1 Terry

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
Following the line marked as 105A the voltage drops below 12v in under 1 min and drops below 10v in roughly 30 mins from a fully charged battery. So, at that load the capacity dropped from 105Ah to 50Ah, roughly half, the effects of what is known as the Peukert factor.

Terry, that is simply not true.

Yes the voltage drop represented is correct (Peukert), but not your conclusion about capacity.

If the load is removed, the voltage will recover quite quickly. The capacity actually used is quite small. Anyone who has a hard to start car will know that if the battery is given a rest after a failed start (drawing maybe 400A), it is not flat and another attempt can be made.... and another .and another...

EDIT. The same effect applies to the Lithium battery to, of course, and the (lower) drop in voltage will also recover with little loss in capacity.

Peukert is much misunderstood.

Cheers,

Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 3rd of July 2019 01:44:50 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

You are correct about the misunderstood bit Peter. Try applying the same load again to the AGM battery that dropped to 10v and it will drop to 10v again. Yes, it can supply a trickle current for a while, nothing like the remaining 50 ah capacity can be extracted though. I posted quite a few graphs showing this fact on the old CMCA forum about 8 yrs ago, all tests carried out using an inverter and coffee percolator, they were to show the difference between AGM batteries and LiFeP04 batteries of the same voltage.
Here ya go, I found one of them

100ah AGM load test.jpg

T1 Terry

Tony Bev · Guru

Hopefully this thread is not going to be buried

Just like to say, thanks for your reply Terry

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Verily you are a font of knowledge Terry.

Thank you for the explanation, easy to follow. The additional solar panel is roof mounted on the roof of our Eyre and I apologise for the extra zero.

The graphs that you have provided together with the explanations make the choice for this system to supplement the original straightforward.

Thank you again Terry.

Best regards,

Neil Creswell.

Dncwell · Veteran Member

This has been a very enlightening forum and as Tony says we hope that it is not going to be buried.

Thank you all for your contributions, especially Terry.

Kind regards,

Neil Creswell.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Dncwell wrote:
Hope you haven Jonahed yourself!

Aha not yet! - What Ive found ., Lith batteries work hard right up till they are nearly discharged . Where as lead type drop off . Requiring larger storage to have same output . Plus they dont deteriorate the same over time . Its just the initial outlay often when spending a lifes fortune on the whole camping equipment!! My next batteries will be lithium.

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 9th of July 2019 12:39:04 AM

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Very sensible move Aus-Kiwi, enjoy your camping mate.
Cheers, Neil.

T1 Terry · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Dncwell wrote:
Hope you haven Jonahed yourself!
Aha not yet! - What Ive found ., Lith batteries work hard right up till they are nearly discharged . Where as lead type drop off . Requiring larger storage to have same output . Plus they dont deteriorate the same over time . Its just the initial outlay often when spending a lifes fortune on the whole camping equipment!! My next batteries will be lithium.

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 9th of July 2019 12:39:04 AM

I think part of the problem is comparing costs on a unit for unit basis, not even adding the extended cycle life.

The lead acid battery requires a much larger Ah capacity to deliver the required 12v under an inverter load that also keeps the tv and other voltage sensitive equipment functioning properly. The inverter will run all the way down to roughly 11v, but the TV won't and quite often the water pump won't work properly either.

A quality 100Ah lithium battery will deliver a 100 amp load for 1hr from fully charged before the voltage drops below 12vdc, it would require 6 x 100Ah Full River batteries to do the same job.

If you doubt that statement, here are the discharge charts from FullRiver for a 105Ah 12v battery. Follow the curves to the point they cross the 12v line and 60 minute line. Now follow that to see what discharge rate that line represents, 17.2 amps. 100amps / 17.2amps = 5.81. The curve does drop below the 12v line before it actually crosses the 60 min line, so 6 x 105Ah is a fairly realistic battery size requirement.

Fullriver DC105ah AGM.JPG

I won't add the Winston chart because I've put it up a few posts back and I don't want to be accused of product pushing, but it shows the 1C(A) line crosses the 3v line at the 100% discharge line. 4 x 3v cells in series = 12v.

So the real comparison is 100Ah of quality lithium battery compared to 600Ah of quality AGM battery if you want to use 1000w from an inverter or a combined discharge of 100 amps to run what ever from the battery pack alone.

No doubt Peter (Peter_n_Margaret) will jump in shortly to dispute this, but I'm saying from the battery only, not being powered by the solar as Peter does when using his high load appliances via the inverter.

T1 Terry

-- Edited by T1 Terry on Tuesday 9th of July 2019 12:46:11 PM

Dncwell · Veteran Member

So Terry it would be possible to start and run a RAC drawing 5.3 amps running with a 100Ah lithium via a 5000/6000 inverter for a short period of time?
Best regards,
Neil Creswell.

T1 Terry · Guru

Dncwell wrote:
So Terry it would be possible to start and run a RAC drawing 5.3 amps running with a 100Ah lithium via a 5000/6000 inverter for a short period of time?
Best regards,
Neil Creswell.

5.3 amps x 240vac = 1272w. Add 10% for losses = 1400watts. 1400w / 12v = 116 amps, you wouldn't get the full 1 hr from fully charged to 0% SOC, but it will power it.

Are you looking at running a separate battery dedicated to the inverter rather than the one battery pack powering the whole lot?

T1 Terry

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Thank you very much Terry, most helpful.

Yes I am proposing an independent system, lithium battery, inverter and solar panel plus a Ctek MXS15 charger for A/C supply whilst leaving the existing, original DC supply in the Eyre which employs two 110 Ahr agm and a solar panel and charger.

Best regards,

Neil Creswell.

T1 Terry · Guru

Can be done, then when the AGM's die, up grade to an integrated system where all is supplied by the one lithium battery. Not the most cost effective way to do it because a lot of the wiring gets duplicated and the original 4 cell 12v battery needs to be repacked to distribute the used cells with the new cells to keep the pack in balance.

T1 Terry

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Excellent advice Terry thank you.

Shall proceed along those lines in the future, however, the current agms are not very old and the house system

works well, just need a A/C system for free camping toaster, jug and microwave!

Getting lazier since 1942.

Enjoy your weekend, Best, Neil.

T1 Terry · Guru

Yeah, unfortunately there isn't much of a market for selling near new AGM batteries these days, so unless they won't do what you need, you might as well get your money's worth out of them. We sometimes have a few AGM's we have swapped out for lithium set up that we can get to return to some sort of life after a week or so on the recondition cycle on the mains charger. We take them to the Stone The Crows festival to do demo's regarding voltage drop and weight comparison. We very rarely bring them back home again, there is always someone who's batteries have died while they were there and looking for a something to use short term till their new van arrives.
So there is market if the timing is right :lol:

T1 Terry

Dncwell · Veteran Member

Yo! the market relies on a narrow sector of needy customers congregated in the right place at the right time!

Neil