Those vehicles that have weight capacity up grades.

iana · Guru

Those vehicles that have weight capacity up grades.

Mariner30 · Senior Member

Good question/point... I've wondered the same at times, I've read mag articles about longer brake hoses and or upgraded ( thicker ?? ) brake pads but nuthin' about how those mods actually make the jalopy stop any quicker with some monster ' van/ boat/ horse float/ backhoe type thingee trailer hanging off it... And then there's the body...

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

If you tow anything over 750kg it has its own brakes, so it need not affect GCM.
An increase of GVM will need to demonstrate adequate braking. When I had the GVM of the OKA increased it required brake testing on a private airfield when fully loaded to the proposed new GVM. It involved 12 panic stops from 60kph one after another followed by a panic stop from 100kph. Each stop was recorded for brake pedal pressure, G force retardation and disc temperatures at the end.
Cheers,
Peter

PeterInSa · Guru

Re (An increase of GVM will need to demonstrate adequate braking. When I had the GVM of the OKA increased it required brake testing on a private airfield when fully loaded to the proposed new GVM. It involved 12 panic stops from 60kph one after another followed by a panic stop from 100kph. Each stop was recorded for brake pedal pressure, G force retardation and disc temperatures at the end.)

Ditto, Fully loaded with 20K bags of sand, also swerving test at various speeds.

Peter

Craig1 · Guru

My Pedders GVM upgrade documents show a number of braking tests, including partially disabling a circuit, abs etc. All engineered reports show a pass.

Baz421 · Guru

iana wrote:
Those vehicles that have weight capacity up grades, never once have I read or heard of increasing the stopping ability of these vehicle. I would have thought the most important feature of any vehicle is to be able to stop. Yet I have not heard of any brake modifications, or tire (rubber on the road) changes. Surly the manufacturer has designed the vehicle as it stands to be able to stop within limits, how can you increase the mass without changes in this area?

My LC79 upgrade to 3,700 kg did not effect compliance with the braking ADR. Chief engineer at MVR told me this (I knew anyway as I worked in compliance area myself).

Bottom line ADR compliance will cover xyz and if mods remain within xyz criteria FOR THAT VEHICLE/MAKE/MODEL/YEAR OF MANUFACTURE, there is no issue. This is the important point.

IF YOUR MODIFICATION takes your vehicle OUTSIDE of the ADR's, you need engineering certification.

2nd stage compliance manufactures, WHEN PROVIDING EVIDENCE OF COMPLIANCE will have done the required due diligence or they would NOT have authority to issue the plate.

It is not complicated, it either complies OR COMPLIANCE IS DEMONSTRATED after modification/2nd stage of manufacture.

-- Edited by Baz421 on Wednesday 17th of July 2019 05:18:17 PM

Mr Fuse · Veteran Member

iana wrote:
Those vehicles that have weight capacity up grades, never once have I read or heard of increasing the stopping ability of these vehicle. I would have thought the most important feature of any vehicle is to be able to stop. Yet I have not heard of any brake modifications, or tire (rubber on the road) changes. Surly the manufacturer has designed the vehicle as it stands to be able to stop within limits, how can you increase the mass without changes in this area?

Exactly the same can be asked about towing. Sure our vans, campers, etc. have their own brakes but what about say grabbing a load of sand in the 6x4 unbraked trailer? Any vehicle capable of towing has considerable reserve built into it. At an absolute minimum that reserve must be sufficient for a 750kg additional weight, to allow for the maximum unbraked towing load. Of course all bets are off if you carry a lot of extra weight and tow an unbraked trailer. Makes me wonder how far inside/outside the limits most tradie vehicles are.

Disclaimer: The above does not apply to vehicles not designed for towing or which do not have the full 750kg unbraked towing capacity. However, such vehicles must surely be outside the scope of this question.

dogbox · Guru

does a GVM upgrade increase your GCM

T1 Terry · Guru

:lol: Remember loading a 8 x 5 trailer with sand, the loader driver thought he'd be funny and dumped a full bucket into it, then threw out a shovel. I shovelled out a bit in front of the trailer tyres and headed off, towed by my diesel Tarago. pulled it without any issues, it was always slow and steady so not much difference .... until I tried to stop on a down hill run to a set of traffic lights. Not a hope, fortunately the lights changed as I was about to go barrelling through the intersection. Chose to continue on straight ahead rather than attempting to turn right (that would have turned out nasty I think) and carried on home at a very steady rate. When I looked at the docket from the sand mob, it wasn't .15 tonne, it was 1.5 tonne. Only 750kg more than a loaded box trailer without brakes was legal to carry, but no hope of the Tarago brakes pulling it up in a hurry.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

dogbox wrote:
does a GVM upgrade increase your GCM

Not unless the engineer upgrades the GCM as well on the tow vehicle. So, just because the van was now legal 1 tonne heavier, the GCM for the tow vehicle still applies and the total rig could still be over weight.

The bit I don't understand is, a 2019 cruiser has a GVM of 3.3 tonne and a towing weight of 3.5 tonne. the combined rig would now weigh 6.8 tonne, but doesn't need a heavy vehicle licence?

T1 Terry

yobarr · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
dogbox wrote:
does a GVM upgrade increase your GCM
Not unless the engineer upgrades the GCM as well on the tow vehicle. So, just because the van was now legal 1 tonne heavier, the GCM for the tow vehicle still applies and the total rig could still be over weight.
The bit I don't understand is, a 2019 cruiser has a GVM of 3.3 tonne and a towing weight of 3.5 tonne. the combined rig would now weigh 6.8 tonne, but doesn't need a heavy vehicle licence?
T1 Terry

Hi Terry...a heavy vehicle licence is needed only if the towing vehicle (car or truck etc) has a GVM over 4500kg. Stupid rule that allows lots of incompetents to set sail in vehicles that they have absolutely no idea how to safely load or drive.No doubt there are many stories to be told there????? Cheers

Mr Fuse · Veteran Member

T1 Terry wrote:

The bit I don't understand is, a 2019 cruiser has a GVM of 3.3 tonne and a towing weight of 3.5 tonne. the combined rig would now weigh 6.8 tonne, but doesn't need a heavy vehicle licence?

That stuff confuses me too. At what point is a heavier license required in each state? Even more of a concern, what about when you cross borders and the states either side of that border have different requirements, assuming laws are not yet fully consistent in this regard.

A somewhat similar issue cropped up recently when we replaced our Pajero with a Navara. For the Pajero I could use a car tag for Melbourne's tollways. For the Navara I had to "upgrade" to a light commercial vehicle (LCM) tag. When I queried them on it I was told that it's because the LCM tag is required for all vehicles over 1.5T. The fact that nearly everything from medium sedans upwards, including the Pajero, are over 1.5T seams to be irrelevant.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Mr Fuse wrote:

That stuff confuses me too. At what point is a heavier license required in each state? Even more of a concern, what about when you cross borders and the states either side of that border have different requirements, assuming laws are not yet fully consistent in this regard.

Consistent Australia wide.

Any vehicle with a GVM in excess of 4.5T requires a Light Rigid license or higher.

Cheers,

Peter

Mr Fuse · Veteran Member

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Mr Fuse wrote:

That stuff confuses me too. At what point is a heavier license required in each state? Even more of a concern, what about when you cross borders and the states either side of that border have different requirements, assuming laws are not yet fully consistent in this regard.

Consistent Australia wide.
Any vehicle with a GVM in excess of 4.5T requires a Light Rigid license or higher.
Cheers,
Peter

Thanks for that info Peter.

T1 Terry · Guru

Looking on the web, in the UK the limit for a car licences is:
If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can: drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass ( MAM ) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM. tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg.
We must be so much better drivers over here, we don't seem to have any limits imposed for a car licence, the limits don't start until you get a heavy vehicle licence evileye

An interesting read here, http://www.withoutahitch.com.au/caravan/towing-regulations/ the part about GCM, GVM and GTM are mentioned and the anomalies concerning the licence required to drive a rigid vehicle over 4.5 tonne, yet a combined mass of 6 tonne or even up to 8.5 tonne when it comes to 5th wheeler set ups only requires a car licence. This is an 8.5 tonne articulate vehicle, why is it classed as car and trailer? The 6 tonne car and caravan is a light truck towing a multi axle pig trailer, yet only requires a car licence because of the car 4.5 tonne licence rulling.

T1 Terry

dogbox · Guru

Mr Fuse wrote:

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Mr Fuse wrote:

That stuff confuses me too. At what point is a heavier license required in each state? Even more of a concern, what about when you cross borders and the states either side of that border have different requirements, assuming laws are not yet fully consistent in this regard.

Consistent Australia wide.
Any vehicle with a GVM in excess of 4.5T requires a Light Rigid license or higher.
Cheers,
Peter
Thanks for that info Peter.

any veichle with a gvm of 4.5 ton or greater has a maximum speed limit of 100 kph even if the speed limit is greater

T1 Terry · Guru

I think that 100 km/h speed limit applies to towing in WA as well, but no idea what the regulation are in NT because I believe they abandoned the state wide 130km/h limit because it increased the vehicle accident rate rather than reducing it was the intent.

T1 Terry

yobarr · Guru

T1 Terry wrote:
I think that 100 km/h speed limit applies to towing in WA as well, but no idea what the regulation are in NT because I believe they abandoned the state wide 130km/h limit because it increased the vehicle accident rate rather than reducing it was the intent.

T1 Terry

Hi Terry....most of the rural areas of the NT have 110km/hr speed limits,but there still are four stretches of road where the speed limit is 130km/hr.It was open (no speed limit) until the Labor govt was elected,(2016?) and they promptly removed the no-limit classification,to the annoyance of many,but once again the noisy minority of do-gooders won the day.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 24th of July 2019 02:35:55 PM

dogbox · Guru

speed limit NT 100 kph gvm 12 ton or 5 ton gvm bus

jontee · Veteran Member

G`day,

I was under the impression that any vehicle or vehicle combination over 7.5 metres in length was restricted to a 100 kmph speed limit Australia wide .

Is this correct or not ?

Cheers,

Jontee

Baz421 · Guru

jontee wrote:
G`day,
I was under the impression that any vehicle or vehicle combination over 7.5 metres in length was restricted to a 100 kmph speed limit Australia wide .
Is this correct or not ?
Cheers,
Jontee

Not that I have ever heard,,,, the 100kph limit is for trucks over 12t GVM or a BUs over 5t GVM,,, these are current figures,, otherwise posted limits EXCEPT IF STATES dictate other wise

yobarr · Guru

Baz421 wrote:
jontee wrote:
G`day,
I was under the impression that any vehicle or vehicle combination over 7.5 metres in length was restricted to a 100 kmph speed limit Australia wide .
Is this correct or not ?
Cheers,Jontee
Not that I have ever heard,,,, the 100kph limit is for trucks over 12t GVM or a BUs over 5t GVM,,, these are current figures,, otherwise posted limits EXCEPT IF STATES dictate other wise

I agree...I spent a bit of time looking for any such legislation,but found nothing.Happy be be corrected though! Cheers

Baz421 · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Baz421 wrote:
jontee wrote:
G`day,
I was under the impression that any vehicle or vehicle combination over 7.5 metres in length was restricted to a 100 kmph speed limit Australia wide .
Is this correct or not ?
Cheers,Jontee
Not that I have ever heard,,,, the 100kph limit is for trucks over 12t GVM or a BUs over 5t GVM,,, these are current figures,, otherwise posted limits EXCEPT IF STATES dictate other wise
I agree...I spent a bit of time looking for any such legislation,but found nothing.Happy be be corrected though! Cheers

Australian Road Rules MUST be adopted legally by each state. Here's the link to each state -

https://www.australia.gov.au/information-and-services/transport-and-regional/roads-and-road-transport/road-rules

Here is a copy of recent changes as they affect SA drivers

http://mylicence.sa.gov.au/road-rules/road-rules-amendments

As you can see lots of reading bt the answers are there.

Craig1 · Guru

Yobarr, you highlight MUST, but there are still plenty of rules that are different. EG U Turn at traffic lights, legal in Victoria, totally ILL-legal in NSW and a hefty fine . It would be good if they would all agree, but the again we are talking about politicians.

iana · Guru

Don't turn this thread into a "chest Bumping" slanging match, these replies have nothing to do with the original question!

yobarr · Guru

Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, you highlight MUST, but there are still plenty of rules that are different. EG U Turn at traffic lights, legal in Victoria, totally ILL-legal in NSW and a hefty fine . It would be good if they would all agree, but the again we are talking about politicians.

Hi Craig....if you closely examine the trail of posts,you will find that the post that contains a highlighted MUST is not a post submitted by me.The author of that post is indeed none other than Baz421. All is good.Cheers.

Baz421 · Guru

Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, you highlight MUST, but there are still plenty of rules that are different. EG U Turn at traffic lights, legal in Victoria, totally ILL-legal in NSW and a hefty fine . It would be good if they would all agree, but the again we are talking about politicians.

Craig1 please re read,,, MUST refers to Australian Road Rules (ie they are rues NOT legislation) that must be adopted by states if they to be uniform across states.

We all know they are not, and some states will probably never standardize.

Anything that is recommended,advisory/non legislated rules ie ARR and Australian Standards must be called up in legislation to be legal and apply in that jurisdiction.

A subtle but important point.

Cheers baz

Baz421 · Guru

iana wrote:
Don't turn this thread into a "chest Bumping" slanging match, these replies have nothing to do with the original question!

Oh I though I had answered the OP query quite clearly,, in a previous life this was my job, senior tech officer and Deputy Registrar of Motor Vehicles.

Are you searching for something else????

Greg 1 · Guru

In WA a vehicle towing anything from a garden trailer up is limited to 100kph even if the posted limit is 110. In the outback, I sit on 100 with the van if safe to do so, but it is obvious that a lot of people are either ignorant of this WA law or just plain speeding as I am constantly being passed by cars towing something at considerably more than the 100kph.

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

iana wrote:
Those vehicles that have weight capacity up grades, never once have I read or heard of increasing the stopping ability of these vehicle. I would have thought the most important feature of any vehicle is to be able to stop. Yet I have not heard of any brake modifications, or tire (rubber on the road) changes. Surly the manufacturer has designed the vehicle as it stands to be able to stop within limits, how can you increase the mass without changes in this area?

Hi iana

As it is mentioned the trailer must have brakes if it is over 750 kg atm.

When a reputable company such as Lovells perform a modification to increase GVM and or GCM the engineer that is inspecting and passing the modifications carries out a stringent brake test to ensure that the vehicle being passed is compliant regarding brake performance.

I have not witnessed the actual test but as it was explained it is a physical test involving some form of meter than works and registers inertia. It was suggested to me when I had presented my sons vehicle for modification that I remove all loose items from the vehicle.

Baz 241 has provided us all with the information from a compliance side in his informative post above.

The second inspection prior to the modification being legal and complete is to present the modified vehicle to the RTA inspection garage and they perform the testing of brakes on a special roller set that is obviously similar to the roadside equipment commonly known to knowledgeable truck operators as The Shaker. I was present when these tests were carried out on my sons Toyota.

It is after this inspection when the brakes and all other aspects of safety have been passéd then the vehicle is legal to operate under the new weight specifications and the registration papers are then upgraded to reflect the new vehicle specifications.

The modifying engineer is not going to pass a vehicle if brakes, tyres, wheel size or any other component is inadequate or faulty as these faults will be found by the secondary inspection by Traffic Authorities and Compliance staff.

As I have indicated in other posts, if you are considering getting an upgrade, do your homework carefully as some upgrades being offered may not suit your legal requirements.

I hope this helps with your enquiry.

I have no affiliation whatsoever with Lovells or any of their agents.

-- Edited by Iva Biggen on Friday 2nd of August 2019 09:14:16 AM