Hyundai's ix35 fuel cell

Whenarewethere · Guru

RE: An Aussie electric truck company.

Knight · Senior Member

Bagmaker wrote:
Knight,
the only way you are going to out-do a Tesla in some old Toyota or Datsun or whatever 4wd is if you are towing though a river up a hill, loaded with camping gear.
No possibly way on a freeway. Period.
Check one out for real, they will blow your pants off.
more likely the "driver" was asleep or otherwise occupied.

Ever heard about the Hare and the Tortoise Bagmaker?

lol

Maybe like I was the Tesla S driver was keeping to the speed limit?

But soon realised that his battery pack energy level was dropping quickly and lowered the speed, fading into the distance behind my Isuzu MU-X as Tesla S could not maintain 110 kmh any longer, as it did.

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 30th of September 2019 05:02:22 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

Knight wrote:
Terry, a few months ago I entered the motorway at Goulburn NSW heading south, no caravan in tow, and set cruise control on a real 110 KMH, 117 KMH on the speedo.

A Tesla S pulled up behind and was using my 4WD's slipstream, I assume that was the reason for driving so closely behind my vehicle. After several minutes we came to a road construction zone and 80 kmh and then 40 kmh. The Tesla EV dropped back with a few vehicles in between it and my vehicle. Back in the 110 KMH zone I returned gradually speeding up to 110 KMH and the Tesla soon caught up and resumed slipstreaming.

Some distance down the road we came to another hilly section with a B-Double climbing up at about 90 KMH, for reason I did not understand the Tesla pulled out and came alongside my vehicle, and annoyingly stayed there until over the hill, and then it passed the truck and slowed, I overtook it again after a while at 110 KMH. It again commenced slipstreaming. After nearly 20 minutes the Tesla dropped back, and further back until it was disappearing.

EV energy usage increases with speed and climbing hills. I understand that highway cruising long distance is best done at 90 kmh or less. And the range also depends on usage of energy for air conditioning or heating, load on board (people and luggage), windscreen wiper use, etc. Typically a driver should calculate or estimate range on highway by discounting at least 30% from theoretical or factory range estimate. And that would be lightly loaded.

Many motoring journalists are now reporting that EV is best suited to suburban use where regenerative braking is most often applicable to put some energy back into the battery pack, and where road speeds are lower than highway speeds. An NRMA Nissan Leaf test in 2018 with four aboard reported useful range of just over 200 kms, and returning to Sydney via the coast the driver switched air conditioning off when concerned about reaching the next recharging station. The new Leaf has a retail price over $50,000 plus costs like charging equipment and home recharging point, unless standard 240 volt power point and many more charging hours is acceptable.

I agree that change (forced by governments, notable European Union - Euro Standards) is underway, but that does not reflect a market ready to accept high prices and inconvenience of range and recharging on the road. If free market capitalist system was allowed to work as it does, I doubt that a transition would take place quickly, at least not until EV is equivalent to ICEV in all respects.

In my opinion EV will probably not be the main choice, more likely Hybrid technology (engine powered generator charging battery or hydrogen fuel cell). EV maybe, when the price is comparable to ICEV, for city folk.

:lol: Tell him he's dreaming :lol: Have you ever sat your butt in the passenger seat of a Tesla, S model or D model, from your post I'm guessing not, they would make you speechless with the acceleration from standing still to the speed limit or what ever. Even a Kona would have you spluttering and they have proved their ability to hold 110km/h for the full 400km range and still have battery power to spare. A Tesla would simply laugh at such a feat, but it is twice the price and recharges are fee for life. Plenty of You tube videos of Tesla model S and D models doing insane speed runs along an autobahn where the speed limits do not apply. There is even a video of a Tesla drag racing a well known sports car and only just beating it over the 1/4 mile, then the wide angle shot shows the Tesla towing a trailer with the same model car on the trailer.

Electric cars of today make ICE powered vehicle look like granny shopping trolleys as far as performance over both the sort and long distances. Time to accept your old fossil fuel guzzler is past its prime and destined to never catch up, this the era of the electric vehicle, just like the horse never regained its position as the primary choice for transport once the ICE powered vehicle took over. It all happen over a few yrs, not 10 yrs or 20 yrs or 30 yrs like some seem to think. There is a TED talk about this complete with photos of an American main street taken a few yrs apart, the first is "Spot the car" the second is "spot the horse" both are just as hard to spot much like "where Wally" picture.

T1 Terry

Greg 1 · Guru

Terry you are not very up to date if you think hydrogen fuel cells are bulky. Both Toyota and Honda have production vehicles on the road and have been available in California to the consumer for some time. The fuel cell is actually quite compact, about the size of a portable inverter generator and has a hydrogen tank about the size of the average petrol tank. Both vehicles are about Camry size so not huge either. The technology is already here. We just don't have it due to the lack of refuelling infrastructure in this country. It combines the advantages of an EV with the range and the flexibility of an ICE. Refuelling takes the same time as an ICE. The fuel cell generates the power for the electric drive motors. There is also a lot of work being done on this technology for large trucks as again it does not have a range disadvantage. You are dreaming if you think that an EV's range is only halved if towing. The current technology the range is less than a third and that is only with a light load behind. I am sure that the tech will advance quite rapidly, but for distance travel hydrogen fuel cells are showing far more promise.

Knight · Senior Member

Terry, what has speed and acceleration got to do with travelling on a speed limited highway without breaking traffic laws, in other words your comparison of EV Tesla with ICEV?

The point I made was range capabilities, and my 4WD can travel more than twice as far as a Tesla S and be refueled in far less time than the EV needs for recharging.

I accept that you are enthusiastic about EV technology and that's good, but in practical terms, EV is not worth the money or the inconveniences at this point in time.

Knight · Senior Member

Good comment thank you Greg.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

It is pretty clear that hydrogen will likely become a very important part of the mobile fuel supply chain.
When (not if) we achieve 100% renewables (which, unlike coal will have an almost zero marginal cost) for our power, pumped storage will supply back up capacity and when that is full, surplus electricity will make hydrogen.
Cheers,
Peter

T1 Terry · Guru

The problem hydrogen is storage and transport. Hydrogen will even leak through glass, it makes all metals brittle as it leaks though the molecular bonds so the tanks and equipment must be replaced regularly to avoid failures. The only relatively safe way to transport it is to add a carbon atom and convert it to methane (natural gas) and of course that is a green house gas, so serious environmental regulations would apply and it then has to compete with CNG that is already available and LNG which is shipped overseas for other countries to use. We can already run diesel engines on LNG and/or CNG, Sydney buses have been doing it for yrs and the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) powered compressors for the Sydney fish markets have run on the stuff for more than 20 yrs I believe. To break pure water down to hydrogen and oxygen, then covert hydrogen to methane, then back to hydrogen, is very energy intensive and produces far less energy when used as a fuel, even in a fuel cell, that is why just about all the hydrogen today is produced from methane via steam reforming using high pressure and a catalyst www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming A very dirty pollution creating process, I can't see that being readily accepted over a non polluting power generating renewable system with battery back up. Remember, a fuel cell needs pure hydrogen on one side and pure oxygen on the other side of the membrane, any impurities will shorten the membranes cycle life.

Until the science of extracting hydrogen from water is improved and the method of storing and transporting it, the hydrogen fuel network is a pipe dream. Far easier to develop a power grid and stand alone power systems for EV recharging than try to develop a hydrogen network throughout Australia. An LNG network is far more likely, then you can keep your diesel engine vehicle for a few more yrs and LNG fuel generator/turbines will be come the norm for hybrid electric vehicles like heavy transport.

T1 Terry

Knight · Senior Member

Terry there are already hydrogen powered vehicles, in California USA and Japan, Singapore and a few other places there are public hydrogen refilling stations.

Hyundai and Toyota have gone about creating their models in different ways, with the ix35 fuel cell adapted from the company's existing ix35 SUV, whereas the Mirai has been specifically designed from the outset as a fuel cell vehicle. The Honda is like the Toyota in this respect, and it is expected that new manufacturers coming into the FCEV market will follow this approach. There are likely to be a few 'converted' models released though, like the Hyundai, since the development costs are significantly less, even if packaging compromises need to be made.

BMW, Audi, and Mercedes Benz are just some of the companies that have been developing hydrogen fuel cell models, so the market will gradually expand over the course of the next few years. Until then, Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda will remain the main market leaders for this technology, though even small start-ups such as Riversimple, with its ultra-efficient Rasa, look set to compete on some level.

-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 1st of October 2019 03:47:25 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 1st of October 2019 03:48:04 PM

PeterInSa · Guru

Earlier this year I spoke to a Brisbane Taxi driver about the cost of replacing the batteries in his Electric/Petrol Taxi, he replied that it was a $1500 change over, at the time I wondered how big the battery was for only $1500.

I read below that the battery for an EV replacement can cost considerably more.

autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill

So what is a True/Accurate/Reasonable Figure for a Battery replacement

-- Edited by PeterInSa on Wednesday 2nd of October 2019 07:03:47 AM

Knight · Senior Member

Yes Peter, and EV buyers should be made aware that battery packs are a replacement part in EV and Hybrids. Add that cost to recharging price, and also for fair comparison deduct fuel tax from petrol or diesel fuel when comparing cost of running EV.

Over time, if the transition to EV succeeds, fuel tax will be replaced by an EV tax to enable the government to recover the lost fuel tax revenue,

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

I agree with Terry about the hydrogen problems being storage and transport. It has been all known for years which is why the progress is so slow. I would not smoke near a vehicle that has a hydrogen tank disbelief So all the major manufacturers are doing research and keeping the spin going but no breakthrough in site yet.

Sure if you can find a way to store it without loosing half the value in conversions, it might be a fuel cell that might drive the wheels. A fuel cell will be more efficient that an ICE running on it by current technology. But so far that is still to be proved and a viable system shown to work out in the real world. Hydrogen is still work in progress IMHO and the end is not in sight yet for use by the punters. Just mostly spin so far.

As Terry said if we were to run natural gas instead of liquid hydrocarbon fuels, then we have plenty of that now. There are pipes that cross the country in places and well know ways to run engines on it. Some countries have used it for general cars for years. But the problem is political here as we have flogged it all off at half price to overseas. Indeed they are talking about building a gas import terminal in Newcastle to supply enough gas from overseas markets to keep the east coast going !! Who voted those clowns in, or was it just capitalism at its very best confuse gouging the punters ?

Jaahn

T1 Terry · Guru

Knight wrote:
Yes Peter, and EV buyers should be made aware that battery packs are a replacement part in EV and Hybrids. Add that cost to recharging price, and also for fair comparison deduct fuel tax from petrol or diesel fuel when comparing cost of running EV.

Over time, if the transition to EV succeeds, fuel tax will be replaced by an EV tax to enable the government to recover the lost fuel tax revenue,

I would imagine they will return to the road tax system similar to that used in NZ. You buy so many km, then top it up as you need. Now we have networks that see everything, it won't be hard to download the distance travelled from the last date stamp in the vehicle's computer and the tax will hit at the same time as the credit card payment for recharging. Those that choose to charge via their own solar will be hit each yr for the tax applicable to the distant travelled last yr and no doubt a double charge for any tax not paid the previous yr because the owner did not top up their road tax to compensate for the distance travelled. If you over pay one yr, that tax will be credited to the next yr.

As far as battery cycle life, thankfully that is on the improve as well and manufacturers are now adding a cycle life for the battery into the warranty terms. this means you know how much it will cost you after the warranty expires if you decide to keep the vehicle and replace the battery or just trade it in for a newer model.

Nissan have recently added a higher capacity and longer cycle life replacement for the earlier Leaf that suffered with poor battery performance. if you take the vehicle to the Nissan dealer they will swap out the battery and keep the old one so they aren't available for the after market people to mess with ... they claim it is for recycling but ...... If you purchased the Leaf from new and kept up your Nissan servicing they offer a substantial discount on the replacement pack to prop up customer loyalty.

Other makers are following suit but at the moment, the Leaf was the only one that really had a problem.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

PeterInSa wrote:
Earlier this year I spoke to a Brisbane Taxi driver about the cost of replacing the batteries in his Electric/Petrol Taxi, he replied that it was a $1500 change over, at the time I wondered how big the battery was for only $1500.

I read below that the battery for an EV replacement can cost considerably more.

autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill

So what is a True/Accurate/Reasonable Figure for a Battery replacement

-- Edited by PeterInSa on Wednesday 2nd of October 2019 07:03:47 AM

I have a Brisbane ex taxi Prius, 2008 model with 728,000km on the clock. The taxi owner told me he had bought a second hand traction battery from the wreckers about 12 mths before I bought it and it is still going strong.

I also recently bought 2006 Prius with an added plug in battery pack and all the bells and whistles, about as far from a Taxi pack model as you can get :lol: The traction battery failed and I bought one from a local wrecker for $400. Took me 3 hrs to swap the traction pack batteries and it is going better than when I bought it.

You can buy new everything for any vehicle, you can also buy after market and second hand for just about any vehicle, it's the owners choice. So from paying top $$ for the genuine part with their 125% mark up, or after market for a fraction of the price, or from a wreckers for very little and take the risk the part is any good. I knew what I was doing, tested it, traced its age via very helpful members on a Prius forum and I got a real bargain for my $400. You can buy rebuilt batteries for them on evil bay, so there is no reason the same thing won't happen for other electric or hybrid vehicles.

T1 Terry

Greg 1 · Guru

Our own CSIRO have been making massive advances in the production and storage of hydrogen to such an extent that they have already patented the tech and it would appear that Australia is on the cusp of being a world leader in this technology. Good thing with hydrogen is only water vapour out of the exhaust.

T1 Terry · Guru

It would be brilliant if the science could be sorted to stop the leaking and embrittlement www.imetllc.com/training-article/hydrogen-embrittlement-steel/ that hydrogen causes. Then it could be split from water by one of the many processes being studied using solar and an electrocatalyst authors.library.caltech.edu/56238/2/ja510442p_si_001.pdf then roll out a hydrogen highway much like the EV charging station highways that have already been rolled out. We just need Arnold Schwarzenegger to become prime minster or president or something to get it to actually happen. The crowd we have now want to open new coal fired power stations so creating a hydrogen economy isn't going to happen under their watch.
Private enterprise is behind the EV recharging roll out, do you think you could see private enterprise coughing up the money to develop a hydrogen refuelling network?
As far as I can see, maybe an LNG refuelling network could eventually appear once the market for selling the stuff off shore dries up, but that's about it. There is an LNG refuelling pump in Tarcutta NSW I believe, well there was one but no idea if it's still there since Tarcutta got bypassed www.dieselnews.com.au/boc-tarcutta-lng-truck-refuelling-linfox/
As for hydrogen refuelling www.motoring.com.au/australias-first-public-hydrogen-refueling-station-confirmed-118373/ plans to open Dec this year .... but it is in Canberra and they work on a similar flexi time as Tesla :lol:

T1 Terry

Greg 1 · Guru

The laugh that I get is that for all the green claims for electric vehicles, when you do a cradle to grave study on them, they are only a poofteenth better than a modern fuel efficient petrol engined car of equivalent size. The production of lithium batteries is one of the dirtiest processes around, particularly considering the bulk of them are made in some of the most polluting countries in the world. The disposal of them at the end of the life cycle is not too good either so we are left only with the bit in the middle which if not using renewables to charge with but rather hooked up to that great big coal fired power station down the road makes that not too flash either, so we are being conned on their green credentials to be honest. One must always look at the total footprint from cradle to grave on all products to truly find out how green they really are. There are a lot of surprises out there if you look hard enough.

Knight · Senior Member

Greg, the emissions factor in wind turbine manufacturing and installation, same with solar panels, coupled to estimated emissions savings during working life, and then disposal issues, and power stations (fuel to produce the steam aside) come out far in front as reliable, non-stop generators, and with high energy and low emissions technology (HELE) now being improved in Japan with burning emissions to obtain even higher energy generation from the fuel.

However, nuclear (Uranium) is zero emissions, but far more expensive than coal or gas fired power stations. And now the UK has announced a nuclear fission prototype power station, and that technology will catapult energy generation technology ahead of all others.

Remove the subsidies (not legal tax deductions for expenses incurred in earning taxable income available to all businesses) from so called renewables and investment would stop.

EV is in my opinion just one suburban pollution - exhaust - solution but hydrogen fuel cell will be much better accepted as a superior technology for transport vehicles.

T1 Terry · Guru

Lithium batteries are completely recyclable, not like lead acid batteries, so that bit is nonsense. What is less recyclable in an electric vehicle than an ICE powered vehicle? The whole cradle to grave study thing goes either against electric vehicles if it was commissioned by someone who has a vested interest in electric vehicles not getting a foot in the door by looking at every worst case scenario possible and making that the norm or even best case scenario. For example, battery life, distance per recharge, all electrical energy used to recharge the EV is from a poor efficiency coal fired power station, like the one that is now shut down in Victoria, the worst possible grid supply area and a dozen EV's all trying to charge at the faster charger rate, then using the slowest charge rate available to determine the time that load would be applied to the overloaded grid section and calculating the electricity prices at peak power pricing for those with time of use meters.

Any balanced studies finds all this nonsense to be just that, biased nonsense. I mean, if I was to twist the whole person time involved with recharging compared to refuelling at a petrol bowser, the petrol/diesel bowser looses out by a long shot.
A) To refuel you need to open the fuel cap, put the nozzle into the filler, hold the trigger until it has filled the tank including all the false click offs cause you weren't holding your mouth right, then replacing the nozzle into the bowser, refitting the fuel cap, noting the bowser number and then lining up to pay the cashier, then return to the vehicle and park it so you can go to the toilet and get something to eat or drink
B) to recharge the EV, open the charging flap, remove the plug from the charger and plug it into the car, tap your card against the card reader if you car doesn't automatically do the whole hand shake thing, then walk away , maybe 1 min max. Now you can do what ever you were going to do, like go to the toilet, buy some food or drink and relax, the car will call your phone when it has finished charging and record the debt to your account for the recharge if there is a fee to pay. Disconnect the plug, shut the charging flap, hang the charger cable up, 30 secs maybe, so the whole process actually took 1:30secs of your time. Heaps less personal time involved compared to the refuelling on an ICE vehicle isn't it?????

T1 Terry

Greg 1 · Guru

Terry really? Mate I think you are wearing a very dark pair of green glasses my friend if you think that even a Tesla supercharger takes 1.5 minutes to charge an EV. More like 30 minute to 80% if you are lucky And you are really clutching at straws to bring hydrogen embrittlement into the discussion against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as the biggest danger of hydrogen embrittlement is of high tensile plated fasteners that have not been correctly heat treated after plating, failing once torqued up. This is a well known phenomenon in the aviation industry and was the subject of a very good article in the Air Safety Digest by CASA which I, as a pilot, used to receive until they stopped printing it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles unless they are held together by non heat treated plated high tensile fasteners, which I doubt.

Jaahn · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Terry really? Mate I think you are wearing a very dark pair of green glasses my friend if you think that even a Tesla supercharger takes 1.5 minutes to charge an EV. More like 30 minute to 80% if you are lucky And you are really clutching at straws to bring hydrogen embrittlement into the discussion against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as the biggest danger of hydrogen embrittlement is of high tensile plated fasteners that have not been correctly heat treated after plating, failing once torqued up. This is a well known phenomenon in the aviation industry and was the subject of a very good article in the Air Safety Digest by CASA which I, as a pilot, used to receive until they stopped printing it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles unless they are held together by non heat treated plated high tensile fasteners, which I doubt.

Hi Greg 1 smile

You could be right about Terry's green glasses but not much of a fault IMHO.

But I might correct you about the hydrogen embrittlement problem. You might have a pilot licence and can read stuff about plated fasteners but I have a bit of paper that says I have done Metallurgy and hydrogen does cause problems with metals generally when it diffuses through them, as it does easily which is the problem of plated fasteners. aww So metal tanks and lines etc are a bit porous to hydrogen gas under pressure, and that may weaken the metal as well over time.

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 2nd of October 2019 07:27:36 PM

Greg 1 · Guru

I do have a little bit more behind me than my pilots license Jaahn and yes I am aware of hydrogens propensity to penetrate various materials including glass, and have been for a considerable number of years but the risk of embrittlement is far lower in low carbon steels. Obviously the manufacturers of the current crop of hydrogen fuel cell cars have addressed this in their designs, and certainly over the expected life span of the vehicle is not seen as a significant problem. We are not talking prototypes here, these are production vehicles that have been on American roads for some years already. The CSIRO has apparently come up with a means of safely storing it in liquid form although details are being kept close to their chests for obvious reasons. This may very well improve the area of safely using this product to at least the level of current hydrocarbon fuels. Don't get me wrong. I am not against either technology, just realistic about where it is at currently. I look forward to both techs advancing in the future and hope I am still around to see it all. I see that pure EV's will live alongside hydrogen tech vehicles with the EV's being used in the more heavily populated areas and the hydrogen vehicles for more remote areas and for load hauling. Infrastructure will drive much of this in the future. However I doubt that we will see a huge swing to either technology inside the next decade due to that infrastructure issue.

Knight · Senior Member

Good comment, thanks Greg 1

T1 Terry · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Terry really? Mate I think you are wearing a very dark pair of green glasses my friend if you think that even a Tesla supercharger takes 1.5 minutes to charge an EV. More like 30 minute to 80% if you are lucky And you are really clutching at straws to bring hydrogen embrittlement into the discussion against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as the biggest danger of hydrogen embrittlement is of high tensile plated fasteners that have not been correctly heat treated after plating, failing once torqued up. This is a well known phenomenon in the aviation industry and was the subject of a very good article in the Air Safety Digest by CASA which I, as a pilot, used to receive until they stopped printing it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles unless they are held together by non heat treated plated high tensile fasteners, which I doubt.

Maybe it's time you stopped speculating and believing what you want to read and actually go with a Tesla owner to a fast charger and see how long it takes to return the battery to 80% SOC. "Seeing is believing" as the saying goes, 350kW DC charging is very fast charging, the Tesla model S battery is 100kWh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S you do the maths, how many mins would it take to replace 80kWh into a 100kWh battery at a 350kW rate. If the charger can supply 350kWh every hr, wouldn't 30 mins charging supply 350 divided by 2 = 175kWh? Didn't the battery only need 80kWh to return to 80% SOC?

As far as hydrogen embrittlement, try looking at welding procedures for ferrous metals and you will see what happens when metals are welding together not using low hydrogen techniques. I think you are starting to clutch at straws to hold onto you ideals rather than looking at things as they really are.

I'm all for a hydrogen highway being deployed, then fuel cells could be added to the battery charging either at the point of the recharging station or on board the vehicle to extrend the range. The battery isn't just there to supply the drive energy, it also absorbs the regen current rather than that energy being converted to heat via the brakes. You can't instantly geberate hydrogen, compress it and put it back into the tank can you?

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

Here is a link to a thread on the Electric Vehicle Forum about another electric vehicle start up company in Australia. This is the one I mentioned regarding building them in Qld and Adelaide.

forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php

T1 Terry

Knight · Senior Member

T1 Terry wrote:
Here is a link to a thread on the Electric Vehicle Forum about another electric vehicle start up company in Australia. This is the one I mentioned regarding building them in Qld and Adelaide.

forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php

T1 Terry

"Hare and Tortoise" Terry, as I posted above, EV is fast but road laws set speed limits, and my ICEV can travel further on a full tank of diesel, almost three time further than a Tesla S, and refuel in much less time.

Hydrogen fuel cell electric drive vehicles will be superior by being more user friendly, subject to price of course, and noting that EV now is much more expensive than comparable ICEV.

If I was considering a change, and one was capable of my towing requirements, a Hybrid would now be far better than an EV, with engine and generator aboard to extend range far beyond battery only limit, and no recharging time, just refuel and go.

And it will be a very long time before EV recharging stations would be able to cope with fleets of EV here. Globally sales amount to about one per cent of vehicle sales so far.

The cost of dismantling liquid fuel distribution and service stations, replacing them with recharging stations, boosting electricity grid generating capacity, upgrading local area grids and buildings with suitable power points adds up to tens of billions of dollars. And then consider the drop in ICEV resale value if EV was made mandatory by government order.

-- Edited by Knight on Friday 4th of October 2019 03:53:26 PM

PeterInSa · Guru

Re (The cost of dismantling liquid fuel distribution and service stations, replacing them with recharging stations)

In SA we still have new Service stations being built admittedly with Fast Food outlets attached, I cannot see the long term cost benefits for these outlets unless Hydrogen Fuel is a goer. I have also used Credit card/Self Serve Bowsers in a CarParts Parking Lot at around 6c/Lt less than the Service Station across the road and wonder why there is not more of a take up on this type of operation for a new installation rather than the bells and whistles fuel/fast food setup.

Re EV charge Points, these could be set up in a Coles/Woolies/Bunnings Carparks with the Appropriate infrastructure making Service Stations redundant (except for FF)unless H2 takes hold.

Peter

T1 Terry · Guru

"We'll all be runned" said Harahan ..... What happened to the horse stables and coach houses when the horseless carriage took over? But you are right about the huge change service stations are going to have to cope with, lots of customers waiting for their car to recharge so they use the time to have a meal or even go shopping or site seeing ..... dreadful disruption to the business model ...... Shopping centres are putting in EV charging stations for this very reason, to keep shoppers in their shopping centre for longer so they spend more money.
Your ICE power vehicle might be able to travel a lot further before needing to be refuelled, I'm sure the service station industry doesn't think that is a good thing and neither do the road safety people with their "stop and rest every 2 hrs" thing to avoid tired drivers going to sleep or loosing concentration and running off the road. If you drive more than 400km without a break you are a danger to other road users, why not rest while the vehicle recharges so you are at least rested refreshed before you hit the road again.
Don't just read what you want to see, the Govt a well as private enterprise is already setting up the electric highway grids, it will happen within your life time no matter how much you try to fight it.
But seriously, no matter what is said, nothing will change a mind that is already made up, so perhaps we should just let it rest.

T1 Terry

Knight · Senior Member

T1 Terry wrote:
"We'll all be runned" said Harahan ..... What happened to the horse stables and coach houses when the horseless carriage took over? But you are right about the huge change service stations are going to have to cope with, lots of customers waiting for their car to recharge so they use the time to have a meal or even go shopping or site seeing ..... dreadful disruption to the business model ...... Shopping centres are putting in EV charging stations for this very reason, to keep shoppers in their shopping centre for longer so they spend more money.
Your ICE power vehicle might be able to travel a lot further before needing to be refuelled, I'm sure the service station industry doesn't think that is a good thing and neither do the road safety people with their "stop and rest every 2 hrs" thing to avoid tired drivers going to sleep or loosing concentration and running off the road. If you drive more than 400km without a break you are a danger to other road users, why not rest while the vehicle recharges so you are at least rested refreshed before you hit the road again.
Don't just read what you want to see, the Govt a well as private enterprise is already setting up the electric highway grids, it will happen within your life time no matter how much you try to fight it.
But seriously, no matter what is said, nothing will change a mind that is already made up, so perhaps we should just let it rest.

T1 Terry

Terry, try thinking about the problems and not focus on new technology that appeals to you, and so far about one per cent of the world's fleet of vehicles.

EV is best suited to suburban transport and Australia is a huge country with many provincial towns and cities.

Like it or not there is are enormous costs involved in replacing the ICEV fleet and infrastructure, and making provision for EV, even if city based.

And don't forget that our world's largest interconnected electricity grid is already stretched to the limit and requires by itself huge investment for upgrading to cope with so called renewables which cannot replace all of the power station generators. And then consider connecting domestic and commercial building recharge points and in addition service stations, electric works another huge cost.

Money doesn't grow on trees, governments have no money other than taxation revenue and borrowing.

As for the most ridiculous EV fan claim that the electricity grid could be propped up by using EVs to power homes, who is trying to kid whom? How impractical.

The next generation of personal and public transport vehicles will have to include Hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell is the most likely technology. There are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles already being sold overseas and public hydrogen refuelling stations made available. And EV recharging stations. What a patchwork of technologies, maybe all Greens can see CO2 which clouds their judgement?

If you are unaware of Australia long distance driving conditions you must be a city suburban person.

-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 5th of October 2019 02:14:15 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

You seem intent on basing your arguments on what you consider to be facts but in reality are spin doctor B/S. The grid is only stretch due to govt stupidity, nothing more. You can't force private enterprise to build power stations no one will support or lend money to build. Investment mobs are no longer walking away from anything coal, they ran away yrs ago, coal really is a dirty word when it comes to investment because it has no future.
The states, federal and private enterprise have already pumped big $$ and are still pumping big $$ into building the electric highways for EV recharging, take the blinkers off and read the articles spread all over the net. Take a look at the huge solar arrays on service stations these days, do you think they are converting that to petrol or diesel or even hydrogen .... they are preparing for the very near future. They know fossil fuel is on the decline, everyone knows that, just look at the rapidly shrinking service station numbers. Most here will remember spots where there was a service station and it is now repurposed for something else or simply cleaned up and built on where the servo once was, there just isn't the business model for them any more.
"As for the most ridiculous EV fan claim that the electricity grid could be propped up by using EVs to power homes, who is trying to kid whom? How impractical."
Just who is being ridiculous here, this generations EV is being delivered with a battery capacity more than double the average house's daily power consumption, why wouldn't a sensible person use that capacity as a UPS for the house in addition to the solar/battery set up they already have? Why not store the solar in mum's taxi during the day rather than getting next to nothing for selling it back to the grid. Mum's taxi will be home when mum's home and that is when the big power draw is required to make breakfast and dinner and cool/warm the house. Wouldn't it be intelligent to double down on the solar and store that for when it's needed, to either power the taxi or the house?
I have made probably more runs across the paddock and up through the back country than most on this forum travelling all over the country either installing or servicing off grid and grid back up solar/battery systems, so I'm not the one with the blinkers on, it must be you.
If you really are wondering just how much of the EV recharging network is already out there, try Google, then add every powered site at a caravan park or where fridgie trailers can plug in to keep them cold while they are waiting to be picked up by the next road train going in the desired direction. By the time EV's are main stream, so will recharging stations, just like it was when fossil fuel powered vehicle first started crossing the long haul stretches. The trucks that once did the Nullarbor crossing when it was still dirt were petrol powered and the fuel consumption was so bad it was not viable to carry the fuel required as well as the freight, so they had to refuel along the way. You either don't know that or are intentionally ignoring the realities of what transport was like in the early days, refuelling had to be pert of an established network the same as electric vehicle recharging will be.

The more I read your posts the more I am coming to believe you are actually part of the fuel industry and feel seriously threatened by the introduction of electric vehicles. The fuel industry will be able to transition to hydrogen reselling and natural gas reselling because neither can be made on site, but the fuel industry will be shut out once things become electric powered, they don't control the sun or the wind or the poles and wires. No wonder your scared, if I was in that position I'd be scared too ..... If you have investments in that network of fuel supply and delivery or even petroleum stocks, might be a good time to rethink that strategy, you don't want to be the person stuck with shares in a buggy whip manufacturing industry or the heating oil delivery network a few decades back, or the taxi industry as it is today .....

T1 Terry

What fuel cell cars arThere are currently only two FCEV models available to own in the UK - Hyundai's ix35 fuel cell and the Toyota Mirai - though these will be joined by Honda's Clarity Fuel Cell later in 2018.