An Aussie electric truck company.

Knight · Senior Member

RE: An Aussie electric truck company.

T1 Terry · Guru

I'll just leave my signature line to explain my view on things. I'm in the process of converting another of my ICE powered vehicles to electric powered so I have actually looked into it with my eyes wide open. I recharge my plug in electric vehicle with the solar and batteries on one of my motorhomes, so I do understand just how much power is required to recharge an EV, it appears you do not or don't want to acknowledge that the supply does not need to be that big for each EV.
I could build multiple high output recharging units in front of my workshop and not use near as much power as the previous business did when it was up and running. I'm confident that this same situation is abundant in many areas and there is already more electrical energy available in many grid sections than can be utilised now, they just need battery storage stability and EV's will provide that where the fossil fuelled car will not help the household adjust to a new way of life at all.
Things are changing very rapidly, time to get the head out of the sand before you end up left behind

T1 Terry

Knight · Senior Member

No need to get nasty Terry, you seem to believe that you know all and fair enough.

I will consider an EV when all of the negative aspects are rectified, as outlined earlier in this post by a number of people.

In between time I will continue to wave as I drive past EV parked at rechargers, mostly there are none when I drive past.

-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 6th of October 2019 09:07:47 AM

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

I am not one eyed about anything. However I have my 'wants' and 'desires' too, but I do not confuse them. It is bl**dy obvious that electric vehicles are not currently going to do what most Grey Nomads wish to do just now. And the most likely ones are going to be too expensive for a while yet. So is that a reason to knock every idea about them, no we could have a discussion, yes a discussion that rationally lists positives and negatives so we could be more informed when we see articles or even paper talk in the Sunday rubbish. Keeping informed is what I like to be. biggrin

This electric discussion reminds me of the 1980s and the unleaded fuel debate. "we'll all be runned" they said, the valves 'll fall out, the power will be runned, those newfangle cat things will last a year at most and cost a bomb to fix, and on and on and on it went ....... And guess what, the sun continued to rise every day, the motor industry went on with a few hiccups and today there are NO PETROL VEHICLES BUILT that do not use unleaded fuel in the normal world. And we breathe easier because of that, and because the grubberment went ahead against the popular opinion of the day and probably of the shock jocks too. Mate a new pollution reduced, three way catylist EFI turbo petrol car is a thing of wonder compared to the 1986 models that limped over the pollution rules of that day. But they had to start somewhere.

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of October 2019 09:37:51 PM

Greg 1 · Guru

Jaahn. That is a good post and pretty much how I think. I am more in favour of hydrogen fuel cell technology as I see this as overcoming some of the issues with pure electric vehicles, but neither tech is currently where it has to be to get me out of my ICE 4WD yet. As per previous posts, much of the delay in these techs advancing will be in infrastructure. I think current battery technology needs to advance a bit more to make pure EV's truly viable and there is advances there in the form of Graphene and others that are showing real promise over current lithium batteries. And of course the cost. That needs to be addressed to get people out of their ICE's and into some new tech.

T1 Terry · Guru

Probably a start would be a roll out of LNG across the country. We already have the stuff and the equipment to compress it and store it as well as dispense it. The diesel fleet can run on it and it can be used in fuel cells that are already on the market, the Bluegen fuel cell www.solidpower.com/en/bluegen/ Set those up around the country where the grid isn't available or suitable for EV charging, get rid of the diesel generators that so many small communities rely on and use the waste heat energy to make clean water via distillation of the salty ground water that plagues so many areas .... or even sea water for all those communities across the "Nullarbor" which is the generic term for anywhere past Port Augusta and before Norseman, but really anywhere much between the outer Adelaide suburbs and the outer Perth suburbs. The grid could finally be connected around the whole country via an LNG pipe line rather than energy wasteful power lines.
Who knows, maybe the technology is on the horizon that can create hydrogen from any water in a small enough package to put one at each service station, then the hydrogen fuelled fleet could become a reality. A heavy transport vehicle, electric motor at each wheel, battery and fuel cell powered using LNG or hydrogen, not too much of a stretch of the imagination now is it?

T1 Terry

Greg 1 · Guru

Terry you are obviously a extremely passionate EV fan and I don't knock that.

But the reality is that EV's and Hydrogen Fuel Cells are not there yet as an answer for the majority of people on this forum and for that matter the general population.
That they will get there sometime in the future I don't doubt, but that maybe some time off. Maybe in a decade or two they will be the norm on our roads, but much will need to change for that to happen.

The fuel industry is not too worried about it as before I retired 2 years ago, all the major fuel brands were madly building new service stations I was involved as a subcontractor on many of them and they were one of our biggest customers.
The only ones they closed were where a site was no longer economically viable so they would shut that one and build a new one somewhere else.
I actually posed the question about EV's and also oil supply to a couple of oil company executives one time. Their comments were that the ICE's life span still had a long way to go and that there was still much more oil in the ground than has been taken.

I have been travelling the Nullabor since 1963 when there was 1600kms of dirt from just outside Norseman right across to Pt Augusta. Every truck that I saw on that stretch, and there were quite a few, were all diesel not petrol, and the roadhouses going across were not a great deal different in distance between of that today. Not sure where you are digging up your information Terry.

Knight · Senior Member

If there was a clear pathway for replacement of the global ICEV fleet with EV there would be no manufacturers offering alternatives such as hydrogen fuel cell technology, as a number of them now do, and as with EV recharger stations hydrogen refuelling stations are becoming available to the public in various countries.

With no government interference whatsoever the EV market would even less (and globally at present about 1 per cent are EV) because the negative aspects of EV ownership are too many to seriously make EV an option for most buyers.

I read a study undertaken in Germany indicating that EV when all is considered are not much better than the latest ICEV technology regarding emissions. So at this stage who wants to changeover, apart from enthusiasts and millennials from the city cafes?

By the way Australia has substantial oil reserves (oil and gas) yet to be exploited, beneath Coober Pedy district in SA, off the southwest coast of WA, capped oil wells in Queensland drilled by the old Commonwealth Oil Refineries and abandoned because Middle East oil was cheaper to obtain, and then huge Shale Oil deposits in Queensland and New South Wales. And these ignore technology to convert Coal into Diesel, as Germany did during WW2.

-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 6th of October 2019 01:45:32 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 6th of October 2019 01:49:09 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

Interesting Greg, most of the old truckers I talk to that did the Perth run drove Inters, Ford's or Dodge V8 petrol trucks up until the Perkins and small Cummins hit the market in numbers that the average bloke could afford to buy. There were some with Knocker Commer motors retro fitted and the old faithful 1418 Benz became the mainstay of many long haul freight mobs but that didn't start until the '70s. The old diesel powered trucks were so slow they just didn't catch on for long haul trucks. They all ran very overloaded back in those days so a truck that wouldn't break to bits and an engine you could fix on the side of the road was the important thing back in those days. Besides cleaning out the "fire rings" in an old knocker Commer not many diesel engine failures could be fixed on the side of the road even back then.
The Nullarbor was sealed in '76, well bits were sealed before then but the patchwork wasn't finished until '76. Some enterprising blokes fitted Gardener boat motors to their trucks, but diesels were still a rare item much before the '70s on the really long haul stuff. Once the road started to become faster for the crossing the more powerful diesel engine trucks like the screaming V53 GM took over the territory because they were so much faster. Then the big cam Cummins arrived but that was much later on and until properly policed speed limits came into force, the fastest truck got the big money work ........

T1 Terry · Guru

Knight wrote:
If there was a clear pathway for replacement of the global ICEV fleet with EV there would be no manufacturers offering alternatives such as hydrogen fuel cell technology, as a number of them now do, and as with EV recharger stations hydrogen refuelling stations are becoming available to the public in various countries.

With no government interference whatsoever the EV market would even less (and globally at present about 1 per cent are EV) because the negative aspects of EV ownership are too many to seriously make EV an option for most buyers.

I read a study undertaken in Germany indicating that EV when all is considered are not much better than the latest ICEV technology regarding emissions. So at this stage who wants to changeover, apart from enthusiasts and millennials from the city cafes?

By the way Australia has substantial oil reserves (oil and gas) yet to be exploited, beneath Coober Pedy district in SA, off the southwest coast of WA, capped oil wells in Queensland drilled by the old Commonwealth Oil Refineries and abandoned because Middle East oil was cheaper to obtain, and then huge Shale Oil deposits in Queensland and New South Wales. And these ignore technology to convert Coal into Diesel, as Germany did during WW2.

-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 6th of October 2019 01:45:32 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Sunday 6th of October 2019 01:49:09 PM

You really are anti EV aren't you, the diesel engine has past its use by date when they started having to falsify emission tests to get them on the road. Volkswagen is the most published but they were all doing it and got caught at it. To meet the latest emissions means a serious loss of performance and an increase in fuel consumption, something the after market community is cashing in on at the moment. Defeating the anti pollution tuning and equipment the manufacturers were force to install will give the performance back and improve the fuel economy, but once emissions testing is rolled out as a mass road side testing facility, those vehicle owners are gunna wonder what hit them and those modifying or defeating the emission equipment, well that was illegal back in the late '70's so it's not like they believed they would get away with it did they????

Just about every vehicle manufacturer has shelved the diesel engine as a none starter for their future production plans, the EU being conned by the "lower emission diesel engine subsidies" is well and truly over and that was what kept the diesel engine as the main stream engine choice.

No point living in the past and putting down anything that threatens the "way it was" the RV market is even adapting to the EV market, https://www.caradvice.com.au/749009/rivian-electric-ute-and-suv-planned-for-australia-as-early-as-2022/ and the Chinese are right on their heals. Big changes in just a few yrs, much like the horse and cart to the horseless carriage, it's coming and nothing will stop it.

Seriously, if you can recharge your car for free from the roof top solar, why would you buy a hydrogen fuelled car that you have to find a hydrogen fuel station and pay money to refuel? The plug in at night and unplug in the morning is much faster than the refuel at the servo, induction charging will remove the need to even plug in so even less hassle. A mass of induction charging parking spots being the norm at the highway service station ....... do you really think they would not put in such a thing? At least the restaurants will have to improve to make that recharging spot preferred to the one beside it biggrin

T1 Terry

Dick0 · Guru

Would love to know the answer to a statement in the article link...

"Financial details and the level of government support remain undisclosed".

Typical GREENS taxpayer funded venture (as a reputable company of course) that normally ends in disaster and bankruptcy.

I have the popcorn ready and the comfy sofa so give me your best shot.

biggrin biggrin biggrin

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

DickO some people do not know how to discuss anything usefully ! doh

Some discussion information that thinking people may like to investigate. All in Australia.

Sydney Buses has some buses with alternative power sources. Melbourne too ! Perhaps there are others but I am not aware of them. Just to show that it is possible to lug big units around with other power sources. Buses at perhaps 7-10 Tons going out and working every day and expected to be commercial.

Jaahn

Sydney. 4 new battery powered full electric for a long term trial. My son uses one on his regular run sometimes.

https://www.transitsystems.com.au/electric-buses

Sydney. 254 powered by Compressed Natural Gas. Some in Newcastle also. Been used with no difficulties for over 10 years and still going strong.

https://sydneybuses.fandom.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_O500LE_(CNG)

Newcastle Light rail. Trams are 'battery' powered and just make contact at each stop for charging while loading and unloading passengers.

https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=283

Melbourne has some Hybrid buses. I have also seen one here in Newcastle doing a regular run for the university shuttle between campuses.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1904/first-of-50-new-volvo-hybrid-buses-ready-for-melbourne

Natural gas pipelines in Australia. You might be surprised how they cover a lot of the country !

https://www.apga.org.au/pipeline-facts-and-figures

-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of October 2019 09:54:39 PM

Knight · Senior Member

Terry, recharging by solar from your rooftop is not "free" because the solar system costs you money to buy, finance (cash or credit), install, maintain and eventually replace the system which is a cost spread over the working lifetime of the system, an every year cumulative expense to make provision to pay for.

And remember that there is a fuel tax on petrol and diesel fuels. Over time, if and when EV becomes a replacement for ICEV a tax will be levied on EV to recover the falling fuel tax revenue. So when you read the cost of recharging compared to refuelling remove the fuel tax and then compare, I have, and the saving a a couple of cents per kilometre. Then count for battery pack (pure EV not Hybrid) replacement cost as it is also a replacement "fuel cost" for EV owners.

And then consider environment, 70-80% of electricity here comes from coal or gas fired power stations and diesel or gas other generators, about 10% from hydro and 10% from wind and solar. EV therefore is not low emissions.

And solar recharging probably could be satisfactory for "mum's taxi" during the daytime hours when it is parked at home. But again, not a practical solution for most motorists. And from what I have read about this, solar recharging is not fast.

Hydrogen fuel cell refilling is no more difficult that filling with Liquid Petroleum Gas - I have run vehicles on LPG since the 1980s including a business fleet in all states. I have also run a diesel engine vehicle with single-point injected LPG "dual fuel" running 20 per cent LPG with diesel. As Jaahn has outlined, CNG is another option for ICEV. And all fuels are more convenient for motorists to use than driving an EV. Again, suburban travellers, if the purchase price was comparable to ICEV, maybe ok.

For country and other long distance travellers an ICEV or Hybrid is far better at this point in time.

I just read about a new EV light truck based on the old Land Rover Defender, a whole 300 Kms range theoretically based on battery pack energy capacity. Well load it up with trades equipment and boxes and what happens, even in the suburbs? Maybe a real 200 Kms? My son's Mitsubishi Triton ute with diesel engine does far better than that.

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 10:11:37 AM

Greystone · Senior Member

I think that it will be a combination of EV and hydrogen in the future. EV for those who are into solar power and hydrogen for the rest. Fossil fuels for vehicles will be phased out for the simple reason that car manufactures will not be making ICE vehicles anymore. We are a 100% self sufficient all electric household with the first generation Nissan Leaf as the daily driver. No energy and fuel bills in this household and no blackouts either! When the next generation EV are available with 1000 km range, we'll ditch our diesel tourer and replace it. I anticipate that in 5 years or so. The problem with hydrogen, other than technical, is that it's production will be in the hands of the oil and gas industry. So you will be dependent on their marketing strategies and priorities just like you are today with petrol or diesel. It is also easier to levy tax on hydrogen at the browser, just like what's happening today with petrol and diesel. So I reckon to the oil and gas industry as well as our government, EVs are a threat to revenue, because anyone can install a PV system and charge their EV.

Knight · Senior Member

Greystone wrote:
I think that it will be a combination of EV and hydrogen in the future. EV for those who are into solar power and hydrogen for the rest. Fossil fuels for vehicles will be phased out for the simple reason that car manufactures will not be making ICE vehicles anymore. We are a 100% self sufficient all electric household with the first generation Nissan Leaf as the daily driver. No energy and fuel bills in this household and no blackouts either! When the next generation EV are available with 1000 km range, we'll ditch our diesel tourer and replace it. I anticipate that in 5 years or so. The problem with hydrogen, other than technical, is that it's production will be in the hands of the oil and gas industry. So you will be dependent on their marketing strategies and priorities just like you are today with petrol or diesel. It is also easier to levy tax on hydrogen at the browser, just like what's happening today with petrol and diesel. So I reckon to the oil and gas industry as well as our government, EVs are a threat to revenue, because anyone can install a PV system and charge their EV.

Greystane, fuel tax is a huge source of revenue for the federal government and they cannot afford to let it go.

They will find a replacement tax on EV, just as they levied LPG once vehicle user numbers reached a certain number.

I tend to agree that EV is a suburban transport possibility replacing ICEV in the future, but uptake will depend on retail pricing and trade-in of ICEV value.

This morning I read a report on a new Toyota Hybrid Rav4 SUV that is reported to have become popular, and the story included that Toyota anticipate increasing sales for an even larger Hybrid range of models they plan to release. Hybrid, petrol engine fuelled generator on board, small battery pack and electric drive. Much more suited to Australian driving conditions to replace ICEV.

I intend to keep my Isuzu MU-X diesel until the replacement is obvious, no speculation. Meaning the price is right or equivalent for equivalent vehicle that can tow caravan, boat and large box trailer with acceptable trade-in value.

Regarding buyer acceptance of EV, in Norway sales were strong until their government cancelled the incentive subsidies. Worth thinking about? And Norway has hydro and nuclear power stations.

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 01:41:16 PM

Knight · Senior Member

Regarding Toyota-Lexus future plans for vehicles ... and it makes sense for a country the area of Australia to have travel flexibility, hybrid with hydrogen fuel cell technology.

www.caradvice.com.au/588509/hydrogen-is-the-future-not-battery-electric-cars-lexus/

RAV4 Hybrid towing test

https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyota-rav4-hybrid-2019-tow-test-119784/

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 03:01:06 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 03:09:10 PM

Knight · Senior Member

deleted

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 04:35:27 PM

PeterInSa · Guru

In Regard to EV Travelling distance and Re Charge Times....

Years ago I was not into Swap and Go, LPG Change over bottles at Bunning/BCF and and, now thats what I do.

I thought that there could be a future for Swap and Go Lithium Battery Packs eg a Standard Size and the Battery must have a certain capacity or estimated number of charges outstanding prior to a swap over. Appreciate it would be costly to set up and would need Car manufacturer to get involved in the standardization, and would also need some form of Fork lift in the change over.

dabbler · Guru

There are a lot of figures being bandiied around in this thread, just like every EV thread. Most of them are wrong or misinterpreted. As a travelling group, we are in the minority in this country. Annual km driven are far lower than many think and EV of one variant or other easily meet the need. Fuel tax revenues are dropping as ICE become more fuel efficient and don't come close to funding new roads and maintenance of existing roads. Decision makers and law makers know this and have been slowly investigating options. Sure, most of us have different needs to msny, but don't expect concessions from either govt or manufacturers.

Knight · Senior Member

According to Lexus (Toyota) what EV manufacturers do not mention is that the faster the charging rate the dramatically fewer the battery pack cycles become.

That meaning how long before needing replacement, so add that to the cost of running an EV, meaning 100 per cent electric vehicle.

See link above for full story ...

The problem with EVs is a simple matter of chemistry - we wont be able to get the charging times down, Williamsen explains.

Ive worked with batteries enough to know that fast-charging a battery is about the second worst thing you can do to it. There are two ways to abuse a battery: overheat it or fast charge it.

With the Tesla Superchargers, they dont publicise it, but if you 'supercharge' a Tesla, one supercharge takes 20 charge cycles off the end of that batterys life. Two supercharges takes 40 charges.

Thats simple chemistry; you cant force the ions through the battery that fast without causing damage.

-- Edited by Knight on Monday 7th of October 2019 05:12:37 PM

Mamil · Senior Member

PeterInSa wrote:
In Regard to EV Travelling distance and Re Charge Times....

Years ago I was not into Swap and Go, LPG Change over bottles at Bunning/BCF and and, now thats what I do.

I thought that there could be a future for Swap and Go Lithium Battery Packs eg a Standard Size and the Battery must have a certain capacity or estimated number of charges outstanding prior to a swap over. Appreciate it would be costly to set up and would need Car manufacturer to get involved in the standardization, and would also need some form of Fork lift in the change over.

Peter, that's how the electric taxi trial in Tokyo did it, but no fork lift needed! An urban taxi needs limitless range, and loses money any time it's off the road recharging, so you'd think would be the worst case scenario for an EV if you listen to the naysayers. But, when the battery was low it would pull into the battery swap station, drive over a bay where an automated process would remove the depleted battery from under the car and replace it with a full one IN LESS THAN A MINUTE.

So, all this talk of people not wanting to wait half an hour for their EV to charge, destroying batteries by charging them too fast, and the difficulty of building charging stations all over the place is suddenly irrelevant. I for one don't find it difficult to imagine adding a battery swap station to each existing servo, afterall it's no bigger deal than adding a car wash. And it just goes to show there's no point in applying yesterday's thinking to new problems. Human inventiveness is boundless, and sometimes it's difficult to imagine what the solutions to today's 'intractable' problems will look like until they actually happen.

The Tokyo electric taxi trial, battery swap station...

Taxi battery swap station.jpg

And a video of it in action...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juTMRdvzj-o

-- Edited by Mamil on Monday 7th of October 2019 06:01:28 PM

Whenarewethere · Guru

PeterInSa wrote:
In Regard to EV Travelling distance and Re Charge Times....

Years ago I was not into Swap and Go, LPG Change over bottles at Bunning/BCF and and, now thats what I do.

I thought that there could be a future for Swap and Go Lithium Battery Packs eg a Standard Size and the Battery must have a certain capacity or estimated number of charges outstanding prior to a swap over. Appreciate it would be costly to set up and would need Car manufacturer to get involved in the standardization, and would also need some form of Fork lift in the change over.

In the era of the stagecoach they had swap & go replacing exhausted horses so the stagecoach could keep going.

Knight · Senior Member

The EV taxi cab exchange battery pack story looks good at a glance, and if all EV were built the same way with quickly removable battery pack as the cabs must be, a good start.

But a business, including owner-drivers but working under the same brand, can keep track of the recharging and age of each battery pack, and while each cab would be billed for electricity each recharge the battery pack life can be monitored. But imagine EVs dropping in and never coming back, like with liquid fuel service station and most customers. How to assess the life of the exchanged battery pack, and how would the supplier work out what to charge on exchange?

With ICEV there are good drivers, bad drivers and in between drivers. When we buy a second-hand vehicle we take a calculated risk on the condition of the mechanicals and other parts. But how with an EV could a buyer assess the working life left in the expensive battery pack? I understand that EV are not yet liked by car dealers as trade-in, unless traded in on a same brand EV of course. 't

But what if you buy an EV and then discover the hidden traps such as difficult to accurately determine range, unless you spend time mapping out a country drive route including terrain/hills, average speed and other energy absorbing obstacles to maximising range? As it stands the next recharging station could be far away, or spend the night at a friendly to EV motel or caravan park.

I am not opposed to EV, as a way to reduce city pollution ok, and for other short drives. As long as the price is no more than a comparable ICEV and no long distance driving is involved.

Convenience is the key factor after cost.

And therefore I agree with Toyota/Lexus' sales and marketing plan for Hybrids, internal combustion engine powering on board generator to charge small battery pack, and later hydrogen Hybrid.

Knight · Senior Member

Whenarewethere wrote:
PeterInSa wrote:
In Regard to EV Travelling distance and Re Charge Times....

Years ago I was not into Swap and Go, LPG Change over bottles at Bunning/BCF and and, now thats what I do.

I thought that there could be a future for Swap and Go Lithium Battery Packs eg a Standard Size and the Battery must have a certain capacity or estimated number of charges outstanding prior to a swap over. Appreciate it would be costly to set up and would need Car manufacturer to get involved in the standardization, and would also need some form of Fork lift in the change over.
In the era of the stagecoach they had swap & go replacing exhausted horses so the stagecoach could keep going.

They did, and all owned and accounted for by Cobb & Co.

Greystone · Senior Member

We get our Leaf battery checked annually by the dealer. They provide us with a detailed report. We also monitor the battery using a dedicated odbc app. It provides details down to individual cells. I would feel more confident buying a used EV because these electronic tools are readily available and there are very few moving parts in the vehicle. The problem I see with hydrogen hybrids is that you will continue your dependence on oil companies. I prefer to supply my own "fuel" from rooftop solar.

Knight · Senior Member

Rooftop solar.

Of course that system has a cost too, panels and others, installation and financing, so payback several years at this time before the owner begins to save money.

Depending on how long the system lasts, the replacement cost is another cost to be considered and deducted from savings.

According to various reports I have read battery storage, such a Power Wall, are too expensive at present to achieve a payback before replacement is necessary.

And AEMO are indicating that they want feed-in tariff abolished because the intermittent tiny rooftop contributions to local grids are causing instability, so households will in the not too distant future be required to use or lose solar energy, or store as long as it is understood that it is not cost effective yet.

Greystone makes some good points regarding Nissan Leaf EV, but I have noted that it is used as local area transport, which I believe is the most suitable application for EV, when they are priced equivalent to ICEV and as user friendly for suburban and country travelling.

Rooftop solar recharging is however slow but therefore battery pack friendly. On the other hand inconvenient for most or many drivers, particularly those who work during daytime. And want to use their EV on weekends. And therefore I maintain that Hybrid is the future for Australians, with some EV where applicable/suitable. Mobility scooters are EV and from my observations and family experience, excellent way to get about for elderly people.

Greystone: Don't ignore the inevitable extra road use tax on EV in lieu of liquid fuel tax not being applicable.

Dick0 · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
Hi
DickO some people do not know how to discuss anything usefully !
Some discussion information that thinking people may like to investigate. All in Australia.
Sydney Buses has some buses with alternative power sources. Melbourne too ! Perhaps there are others but I am not aware of them. Just to show that it is possible to lug big units around with other power sources. Buses at perhaps 7-10 Tons going out and working every day and expected to be commercial.
Jaahn
Sydney. 4 new battery powered full electric for a long term trial. My son uses one on his regular run sometimes.
https://www.transitsystems.com.au/electric-buses
Sydney. 254 powered by Compressed Natural Gas. Some in Newcastle also. Been used with no difficulties for over 10 years and still going strong.
https://sydneybuses.fandom.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_O500LE_(CNG)
Newcastle Light rail. Trams are 'battery' powered and just make contact at each stop for charging while loading and unloading passengers.
https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=283
Melbourne has some Hybrid buses. I have also seen one here in Newcastle doing a regular run for the university shuttle between campuses.
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1904/first-of-50-new-volvo-hybrid-buses-ready-for-melbourne
Natural gas pipelines in Australia. You might be surprised how they cover a lot of the country !
https://www.apga.org.au/pipeline-facts-and-figures

Ahh the personal abuse is lovely.
Still does not answer my quoted statement.

-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of October 2019 09:54:39 PM

Greystone · Senior Member

Our rooftop solar + battery system was installed 7 years ago and has paid itself back already based on household electricity use. 3 years ago we got the Nissan Leaf and it is charged from the same system, so it represents incremental savings. True, we use the Leaf for our daily local drives which I estimate to be 80-90% of the time, not total distance, because we still have to use the ICE for touring. The other savings with an EV are the (lack of) service costs. We paid $90 for the annual battery report. That's it. Whereas the diesel ICE cost us $600 for its 45000km service.

Knight · Senior Member

Greystone wrote:
Our rooftop solar + battery system was installed 7 years ago and has paid itself back already based on household electricity use. 3 years ago we got the Nissan Leaf and it is charged from the same system, so it represents incremental savings. True, we use the Leaf for our daily local drives which I estimate to be 80-90% of the time, not total distance, because we still have to use the ICE for touring. The other savings with an EV are the (lack of) service costs. We paid $90 for the annual battery report. That's it. Whereas the diesel ICE cost us $600 for its 45000km service.

Thanks Greystone, I note that you payback period was 7 years, so effectively during those 7 years you were not saving anything, but now of course after payback you are. In other words, what you saved on electricity bills went to paying for the solar system. I assume that you included interest on finance, either loan or lost interest on cash invested? And have made provision to pay for a replacement system which is another expense eventually that in accounting terms offsets savings achieved after payback period.

How long does it take to achieve 80 per cent battery recharge using solar? And how far can you drive on 80 per cent, I realise that the EV system usually won't discharge below 10 per cent to preserve the battery pack.

Thank you.

Greystone · Senior Member

Yes, one has to include depreciation in calculating break even. But the system has a 10 year warranty and we anticipate that we'd have to replace it after 20-25 years. Not because it breaks down, but because the efficiency of the panels deteriorates. The system we put in our previous house is 15 years old and still no sign of deterioration. So we're on the conservative side. Mind you, electricity prices keep going up and the cost of solar panels and batteries keep coming down. We will not be paying the same for a new system as we did 7 years ago. It's about half the cost these days, depending on quality and Australian content. So your pay back is going to be much shorter. Typically we use the Leaf for 40 - 50 km each day. To preserve the battery we only charge to 80% and that gives us 85 - 90 km range. These are estimates because a lot depends on how you drive the car and whether or not the climate control is on. We plug the car in its 15 amp charger whenever it's at home, but I've never really paid any attention how long it takes, because it has never been an issue. It's always available. The current generation of EVs have better batteries and bigger range. On $/km range basis they are far better value than our first generation Leaf.