Suspension Upgrade

Peter Rabbit · Member

Suspension Upgrade

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

G'day Pete,
Be careful!
There are lots of horror stories about airbags bending, breaking chassis. I had them on my last Patrol (inserted in the coil springs) but although the manufacturer said they were rated to 65psi, the most I put in them was 27.
Yes, they can be deflated down to 5psi with no load on the back.

Your car - can you let us know what it is rated to tow? Also maximum ball weight allowed. What sort of springs does your car have? I'd guess it is front wheel drive so that might be a problem. Is there anything in your manual that says you can/cannot use a weight distributing hitch?

Why do you say that your van's ball weight is the worst ever at 100kg? Going by the GVM, that appears to be correct. You have to be careful with weights these days - you'll find lots of "weight issues" in this section of the forum.
So back to you -

Peter Rabbit · Member

Hi Warren

Thanks for the words of wisdom

Yes I have heard of mixed reviews on air bags, I thought technology may have improved

(I may just have to upgrade rear shocks twice, once for now and again for the lift).

Front suspension:: MacPherson strut, coil spring, gas damper
Rear:: Trailing arm, coil spring, hydraulic double acting shock absorber, anti roll bar; Tow capacity 2000 kg, max. ball weight 100 kg. (Very low ball weight compared to Jap vans).; It is an awesome van except that one aspect. O.E.M is unchangeable for many good reasons.; The Tug has a GVM 3000kg with a 1260kg payload, very sad max. ball weight 100 kg.; (You may of got mixed up with GVM of what I am towing a Jayco Swift ATM 1100kg).; I will have a look a weight distribution gear to see if its applicable.; Cheers Pete

Peter Rabbit · Member

Nearly forgot...

Tug is All Wheel Drive (VW 4 Motion)

Radar · Guru

Hi Peter Rabbit.

Your standard towbar maybe part of the 100kg max problem, talk with a towbar supply company.

I had this problem with a Subaru Outback, flat tongue style was good for I think by memory 60kgs and the square retriever style 100kgs and there was a third larger one which was good for 120kgs.

With our Out back to stop the sagging we put in a set of yellow King springs and better shocks, very simple and not a lot of money in the scheme of things.

Definitely not like a heavy 4wd towing a big caravan where the mods cost so much more.

Hope this helps.

Jaahn · Guru

Hi Peter Rabbit smile

Hmm good choice of vehicle if you do not want to do the 'normal' thing. aww With sensible driving and sensible loading you should enjoy yourself.

My comments on some other comments !

If you fit airbags inside your coils then that should work OK. Forget that comment about bending chassis as those problems relate to a different type of vehicle and also mostly serious overloading. I would research some overseas suppliers sites as there would be more experience there with VWs than here. As was said you can run low pressures normally and just put more in as needed to bring it back to normal height. Do not overload your vehicle anyway is a good rule.

If you have those VW vans sagging under a good load they will wear the rear tires badly as the toe changes as it deflects. You would be advised to get the alignment checked at a normal working height and maintain that using your air bags pumped to suit the load on the day. IMHO cry I would research a lift carefully before doing anything. The alignment also applies.

The 100Kg ball load might be Ok for that light van but you can improve it by fitting a simple pair of bars like the old style WD systems. Cheap and effective and not too heavy either. They adjust the weight distribution and add some friction at the ball, both are good for towing. The current new style bars are over complicated and very heavy for a light van IMHO.

Good luck follows the well prepared biggrin

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of March 2020 09:43:09 AM

Whenarewethere · Guru

I put air shocks and onboard pump on my Peugeot 504 in the late 1970s, stopped its backside sagging. Worth the effort but as said above don't overload the car.

Radar · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
Hi Peter Rabbit
Hmm good choice of vehicle if you do not want to do the 'normal' thing. With sensible driving and sensible loading you should enjoy yourself.
My comments on some other comments !

The 100Kg ball load might be Ok for that light van but you can improve it by fitting a simple pair of bars like like the old style WD systems. Cheap and effective and not too heavy either. They adjust the weight distribution and add some friction at the ball, both are good for towing. The current new style bars are over complicated and very heavy for a light van IMHO.
Good luck follows the well prepared
Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 30th of March 2020 09:43:09 AM

Hi Jaahn,

From a unqualified person, if the towbar is rated to 100kgs how is a set of wd bars going to be any good if the gentlemen needs more weight on the towball.

From what I read the caravan is over 1000kgs but he is allowed to tow 2000kgs now by upgrading the towbar he maybe legally to gain the extra weight he needs to get closer to the recommended 10% on the towball.

Dick0 · Guru

Hi Pete,

I have a Ford Territory AWD. Have a cargo barrier and carry 200kg of gear in rear and 250kg tow ball weight.

Had a bit of rear suspension sag even with WDH fitted. So fitted "Firestone" (not the Heavy Duty type) air bags to rear coils, inflated to 30psi (can inflate safely to 35psi).

Got rid of all sag and Tug tows the Den smoothly in all respects. Made sure all weights (vehicle/van/combined) within manufacture specs.

PS...there are good diy fitting videos on YouTube..."Firestone" have them also.

Jaahn · Guru

Suspension

Radar · Guru

RE: Suspension Upgrade

yobarr · Guru

Dick0 wrote:
Hi Pete,
I have a Ford Territory AWD. Have a cargo barrier and carry 200kg of gear in rear and 250kg tow ball weight.
Had a bit of rear suspension sag even with WDH fitted. So fitted "Firestone" (not the Heavy Duty type) air bags to rear coils, inflated to 30psi (can inflate safely to 35psi).
Got rid of all sag and Tug tows the Den smoothly in all respects. Made sure all weights (vehicle/van/combined) within manufacture specs.
PS...there are good diy fitting videos on YouTube..."Firestone" have them also.

Hi Dicko.....Please correct me if I am wrong,but are you sure that you are not overloaded on your car's rear axle,which is rated at only 1530kg? Your 250kg ball weight adds around 370kg to your rear axle,and takes around 120kg off the front axle.Add 200kg for your gear,all behind your cargo barrier,and you have at least 570kg EXTRA on your car's rear axle. GVM is 2700kg,and kerb weight is around 2100kg.If you add 570kg to your kerb weight of 2100kg,already you are up to 2670kg, but you still have no driver,no passengers,and no weight for the actual towbar structure (behind the rear axle) .....and never forget that youve already lost 120kg off your GVM because of the weight transferred from the front to the rear axle.The Territory AWD is a lovely car....I almost bought one until I discovered its limitations....but I suspect that your rear axle is overloaded? You no doubt are aware that airbags do absolutely NOTHING to transfer weight back to your front axle? A WDH will take a little bit of weight off your car's rear axle and put around 70% of that weight onto the car's front axle,with the balance transferred to your van's axle group.This frequently results in van being over its legal ATM or GTM.Cheers.

yobarr · Guru

Radar wrote:From a unqualified person, if the towbar is rated to 100kgs how is a set of wd bars going to be any good if the gentlemen needs more weight on the towball.

From what I read the caravan is over 1000kgs but he is allowed to tow 2000kgs now by upgrading the towbar he maybe legally to gain the extra weight he needs to get closer to the recommended 10% on the towball.

Many people seem not to understand that a WDH DOES NOT change towball weight.All it does is take a little weight off the car's rear axle and transfer SOME of that weight back to the car's front axle,with the balance being added to the weight on the van's axle group.Simple physics.Cheers

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

Hi Pete, Jaahn,
The reason I mentioned about airbags, chassis bends was that at midnight I wasn't going to look up the VW Transporter specs.

The airbags I put in my Patrol were AirbagMan HD, as I said I never put anywhere near the max pressure in them, nor did I obey the instructions "measure clearance with no load, add the load & increase pressure until car is level." I wasn't into breaking my car. I found with 27psi in the bags, I was down about an inch. Without the van on the back & with that pressure in, the rear suspension felt like a log!

Whenarewethere mentioned airshocks - I don't know if they are still available. We saw some people on one trip to the centre at Chambers Pillar who had "well loaded" Hiluxes. They had air shockers but they pulled the mounting bolts out of their chassis - too much pressure on a weak mount, too much load.

Another friend had a Subaru Outback (as Radar had) - he had a Jayco Penguin. Swapped the car for a Kruger, later swapped the Penguin - an expensive exercise!

I'd go through your car's owners' manual thoroughly, check with a good towbar supplier & go from there. The good thing about this forum is you can get other member's experiences, points to follow up.

Radar · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Radar wrote:From a unqualified person, if the towbar is rated to 100kgs how is a set of wd bars going to be any good if the gentlemen needs more weight on the towball.
From what I read the caravan is over 1000kgs but he is allowed to tow 2000kgs now by upgrading the towbar he maybe legally to gain the extra weight he needs to get closer to the recommended 10% on the towball.
Many people seem not to understand that a WDH DOES NOT change towball weight.All it does is take a little weight off the car's rear axle and transfer SOME of that weight back to the car's front axle,with the balance being added to the weight on the van's axle group.Simple physics.Cheers

Be real careful Yobarr, shortening a quote is not a good thing specially when you want to prove a point as how knowledgeable you are that has nothing to do with the subject.

Peter Rabbit · Member

Wow! Thanks for the replies
Looks like I opened a can of worms...

I enquired about the Tugs tow gear to several towbar specialists, none would certify higher than VW O.E.M
The Tug came with 3.5 ton hitch and tongue to suit, inside driver's door shop spec. sticker states 2000 kg tow and 100kg ball (as per O.E.M).

Won't be stepping out of that for legal/insurance and of course own/others safety reasons.
Prefer a holiday without 3m walls and barbed wire.

When towing bit of rear sag and decrease in ride/steer quality.

Usually only take caravan on extended Safari's (or with company that demands finer comforts). Otherwise its the van, motorbike and me.

I will look into WD older options, I think it will be a toss up on air shocks or bags (reading Yobarr's equation made my head spin).

Will get the alignment checked and research o/s suppliers.

You guys ROCK....now hug it out.

Thanks to all

yobarr · Guru

Radar wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Radar wrote:From a unqualified person, if the towbar is rated to 100kgs how is a set of wd bars going to be any good if the gentlemen needs more weight on the towball.
From what I read the caravan is over 1000kgs but he is allowed to tow 2000kgs now by upgrading the towbar he maybe legally to gain the extra weight he needs to get closer to the recommended 10% on the towball.
Many people seem not to understand that a WDH DOES NOT change towball weight.All it does is take a little weight off the car's rear axle and transfer SOME of that weight back to the car's front axle,with the balance being added to the weight on the van's axle group.Simple physics.Cheers
Be real careful Yobarr, shortening a quote is not a good thing specially when you want to prove a point as how knowledgeable you are that has nothing to do with the subject.

Hi Ralph....with respect,I did not shorten your quote,and the purpose of my post was to yet again attempt to correct a common misunderstanding among people who regard a WDH as a cure-all.....a WDH does NOT change ball weight.Details are in many of my previous posts.Regarding your comment that my post had "nothing to do with the topic" I might point out that both you and Jaahn had submitted posts that mentioned WDH,and my post followed those.Is that not reasonable? Have a great day! Cheers

Jaahn · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
I put air shocks and onboard pump on my Peugeot 504 in the late 1970s, stopped its backside sagging. Worth the effort but as said above don't overload the car.

HI smile

Yes we went on a trip 40 years ago in a HT Holden with a big big roof rack and 3 kids and fitted pump up shocks. Worked well and kept the arse from dragging on all the washouts and crossings on the dirt roads that were the main roads then. Road bad, pump them up a bit more ! A bit roley but we drove to the conditions and did not try to do a lap in a week. aww In fact we restructured the trip after a while to suit the kids interest more. A lot of long boreing stretches out there.

I have not seen pump-up shockies for years now.

Jaahn

Craig1 · Guru

Old Holdens and Peugots were tough, all the rallies won in a Peugot. Whole different way of construction now.

Dick0 · Guru

Good luck Pete...hope all works out. smile